C-21 Learjet info

[Guest kirkhac]

I know that there has been a lot of discussion on this board already about the C-21 but I had a few more questions. Who can get a C-21 assignment? Is it pretty much just a first assignment or could you go from another heavy to the C-21? What about going from being a FAIP to the C-21? Thanks.

[Guest AV8NSP]

We just got a briefing on this the other day. I don't know about going from an MWS to the C-21, but as far as assignments out of UPT, it's considered to be the same sort of thing as getting FAIPed, i.e. a chance to build hours and experience quickly before going to an MWS. Captains are not allowed to request C-21s out of UPT (and they won't get FAIPed either), and all C-21 folks go there without a specific follow-on (which they used to do). When your C-21 time is up, you compete for an MWS. Others may be able to give you more info, but this is what they're telling us at UPT.

[Bergman]

You can definitely go from a heavy/MWS to a C-21. In fact, AFPC usually encourages an MWS tour followed by either an IP or C-21 tour (aka a "white jet tour").

You can not go from a FAIP assignment to a C-21. Eventually everyone must suffer through 200 days per year TDY....

[Guest egghead]

Captains don't get FAIP'ed? Is this a written rule or just a "behind-the-scenes" policy? Just curious 'cuz if/when the time comes for me to pin wings I'll be a Capt.

[Guest IAGuardWife]

It's not "behind-the-scenes" at all. They will tell you from day one that a Captain cannot be FAIPed.

[JS]

Originally posted by egghead:

Captains don't get FAIP'ed? Is this a written rule or just a "behind-the-scenes" policy? Just curious 'cuz if/when the time comes for me to pin wings I'll be a Capt.

Captains do not get FAIPed. Whether it is behind or in front of the scenes, Captains do not get FAIPed.

[backseatdriver]

Originally posted by JS:

Captains do not get FAIPed. Whether it is behind or in front of the scenes, Captains do not get FAIPed.

[Guest egghead]

Ever have one of those times where the answer to your question is soooo obvious, but when you were asking it the first time it seemed perplexing? Thanks BSD, great point.

[Tone deaf]

Times have changed, but back when I was a Captain UPT student... I went right to the C-21 despite the recommendations of my career oriented IPs. As a result, I upgraded from copilot to AC to IP to EP in the three years of my C-21 assignment (I had 600+ hrs civilian time). It took me just over one year to become an IP in the KC-135. So, don't let an OSA opportunity discourage you... instead, take the good deal while it's available. It's a hidden good deal in disguises, trust me. Work hard and you'll do well regardless of where you are assigned. Laugh at the folks that ***** about their OSA assignment and just be the man that gets things done and you will have a great assignment

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

If you have the opportunity to go fly the C-21 do so. Not too many folks will have the opportunity to go to this assignment in the forseeable future. Why?

There is speculation that the C-21 may be heading for the Boneyard in a few years (5-10). Number 1 reason is our current non-RVSM statue and our current contract Mx situation(s). AMC just doesn't want to go out and spend $40000 per jet to get RVSM compliant, and we are supposed to get a huge fleet of Gulf III's in the future as well. We'll probably throw some of these aging Lear's to the Guard and Reserve, and sell the rest to Argentina. How much of this is true, I don't know or care 'cause it's above my paygrade.

Bottom line, whether you are a Capt or a 2Lt, the C-21 is an awesome assignment regardless if you are here at Ramstein or in the states. If you are a late rated Capt, chances of you ever making 4-star are already slim to none.

[Guest HueyPilot]

Rumors I heard prior to leaving OSA:

RVSM and GATM are expensive upgrades, and the little Lear just doesn't have the legs to go anywhere capped at 280. There is currently talk to a study to find a new OSA aircraft. Rumor has it the USAF could purchase an entirely new type, but my bet is if they do get new jets, they'll probably jump on the US Army/Navy/Marine Corps bandwagon and go with the Cessna C-35 (Citation Ultra). The other option I heard is they will do away with small jet OSA in the USAF and go with more C-20s and C-40s (BBJs) to shuttle the brass around.

The non-DV C-40 is a reality. Scott will get their jets in a few years. Supposed to take a general OSA mission that the C-9 was doing after it lost the medevac mission.

My advice...OSA rocks. It's a great mission, I loved it. I'm not saying it's better than an MWS mission, but you can't beat having free gourmet coffee and cookies at Signature FBOs located at some of the busiest airports in the nation...I'll never get to do that again in an airplane with the stars and bars on it.

Herks rule, but I know I'll miss the little jet from time to time.

[Guest HueyPilot]

C-21...where did you get the cowbell quote? Back at Maxwell, it was a inside line to say "gotta have more cowbell"...been doing that for a while now. Gets the point across when the other guy doesn't have his xwind controls in.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Huey,

The quote "I have a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!" is from a Saturday Night Live skit with Christopher Walken and in main part, Will Ferrell playing a band member in the Blue Oyster Cults song - "Don't Fear the Reaper".

If you buy the SNL 25th yr anniv. DVD with Will Ferrell, it's the first skit....a total classic. Or a Google search will get you the script. Anyways, it's funny.

-Cheers

[Guest HueyPilot]

Yeah, I knew that...just wondering...the Bruce Dickenson skit was a popular one around Maxwell...when there was a Maxwell.

[Guest pinko]

I'm looking to fly airlift, not sure what type, but have heard around base that the c-21 lifestyle is ranked among the top... just curious if you can confirm this in a non-biased way? Im in primary right now, not married or anything, and track select will be a few months away but im trying to do the research early. My IP is a c-5/c-17 guy and says he would even take a c-21 slot (STS) right now if it worked out. Also, what are the chances of upgrading to MC in the c-21, and requesting to switch airframes, such as to a c-17? Is this a typical path, or should i bank on flying the c-21 for the rest of my career?

Thanks for any input in advance.

[Guest afpilotboy]

As a relatively new guy to the C-21 world, I can tell you that life is good. Let me answer your questions, last one first. No, there is no one who will fly the C-21 for the entirety of their career. It's just too good of a deal to come true...also, it is an OSA (Operational Support Airlift) assignment which is on par with an AETC instructor tour. Hence, to get their money's worth out of you, the AF will ensure that you fly an MWS (major weapon system -- i.e. a non-white jet). As for upgrades, I can answer this in as much detail as you want, since I'm a training officer in my sqdn. Crew qual. levels are FC (Flight Copilot - Non Msn Ready), MC (Mission Copilot), FP (Flight Pilot - upgrading to AC), MP (Mission Pilot - Aircraft Commander), and IP and EP (Instructor / Evaluator). Avg. timeline to upgrade is about a year (plus or minus) on station to make AC (i.e. MP qual'ed) and another 6 - 8 mon. for IP. We typically fly more and upgrade faster than our MWS counterparts. Deployments are much shorter (60-90 days) vs. MWS (120-180), and more rare (once a year). This adds up to great flying hours, great conus missions, AND you're home nearly every night. Yes, life is good. However, the C-21 world is in the final stages of a consolidation. Meaning less bases with more pilot's. Meaning it is getting harder to upgrade quickly due to an increase in missions and a decrease in training missions (think of a CT sortie for your IP's). So more work and less play makes Jack a copilot longer. Overall, I recommend it. Realize, however, that you will NOT get a follow-on assignment out of upt and will have to compete with your peers for your next mws just like upt. Good luck at track select.

=====

XL UPT class 04-05

[scoobs]

Can fighter/bomber pilots fly C-21's or is it only for heavy guys?

[Guest pinko]

Originally posted by afpilotboy:

Realize, however, that you will NOT get a follow-on assignment out of upt and will have to compete with your peers for your next mws just like upt. Good luck at track select.

=====

XL UPT class 04-05

So if I select C-21s, fly for a few years, and then want C-17s, how do i compete for a C-17 slot? Will they just use my UPT scores? Or will it be performance based from the C-21?

Also, as for the consolidation, is this going to kill my chances of a slot in about a year? And is 3 years a typical assignment with a OSA squadron?

Thanks again for all the info so far.

[Toro]

Originally posted by pinko:

So if I select C-21s, fly for a few years, and then want C-17s, how do i compete for a C-17 slot? Will they just use my UPT scores? Or will it be performance based from the C-21?

It will be a recommendation of your SQ/OG commander based on your performance from the C-21. Once you're done with UPT, the only people who will ever know how you did are your IFF/FTU instructors. The same is true for FAIPs - it is solely your performance at that job that determines your ranking for a follow-on assignment.

[ 09. October 2004, 13:43: Message edited by: Toro ]

[HerkDerka]

C-21, that all I hear about with the pups these days. GO TAC AIR! (plug)

HD

[Guest afpilotboy]

UPT scores do not follow you, you get a "clean slate" at your new assignment (with the exception of IFF/FTU) as Toro said. C-21's are a 3 year assignment and according to the OSA assignment officer at AFPC there appears to be a small steady stream of FAPs (first assignment pilots) into the C-21 community projected into the next few years.

As far as competing for C-17's, etc., the #1 input into your next assignment will be your commander. Job performance is key and no matter what assignment you get after UPT, try to upgrade as fast as you can and as far as you can (i.e. IP or EP). Second to job performance is education -- the C-21 community offers more time to take classes than most other AF flying jobs. So, I suggest start your Master's degree and try to attend some specialty courses (ex. Safety Officer School) or PME (ex. SOS).

There is still a drop when your time in OSA is done AND you won't have to compete with FAIPs. AFPC works sequentially through the assignments; first STRAT, then TAC, then TANKERS. Also, the largest input that YOU get (besides talking to your CC) to tell the assignment guy is what's called the T-ODP (Transitional Officer Development Program). It is essentially a web-based dream sheet, but it has open blocks where you can explain your "dreams," meaning why you put what you put and what your goal is overall.

The picture that is hard to see in UPT is that no matter what you get, it's up to you to enjoy it. Your attitude will be the first impression your IP's at your next assignment get.

[Guest HueyPilot]

I'm looking to fly airlift, not sure what type, but have heard around base that the c-21 lifestyle is ranked among the top

This may or may not be "biased", but it's based upon experience. The C-21 is a great jet, and the lifestyle is very good as well. OIF has increased deployment demands, but in comparison with the MWS world, it's much better (60 days a year or so, if that).

Typically, you'll be TDY about 1-2 days a month, on average. If you're married and have a family, this will be a good deal. Just realize that once you get your OSA stamp, you won't go back unless it's to be a DO/CC type.

Also, what are the chances of upgrading to MC in the c-21, and requesting to switch airframes, such as to a c-17? Is this a typical path, or should i bank on flying the c-21 for the rest of my career?

I'm pretty sure you mean "MP", not "MC". An MC is a copilot. MP is an aircraft commander. Pretty much everyone makes it to MP at some point. Most (but not all) are upgraded to IP, and a few make EP before they leave.

The way it works now is everyone vies for a follow-on assignment once their 3 year OSA tour is up. If you're a decent pilot and do well in your additional duties, you have a good chance to get a C-17. Just keep your mind open, because C-17s aren't the only good assignments out there. I have a friend who got KC-135s to MacDill after flying C-21s and he's loving it. KC-10s to Travis, C-130s to Germany are also good assignments. And by the time you get to the end of an OSA tour, C-17s will be everywhere (Charleston, McGuire, McChord, Hickam, Travis, Dover and Elmendorf). If you're in primary, you're looking at graduating sometime next summer. That means you'll be up for assignment in mid-2008.

However, the C-21 world is in the final stages of a consolidation. Meaning less bases with more pilot's. Meaning it is getting harder to upgrade quickly due to an increase in missions and a decrease in training missions

I was Maxwell's Chief of Training before we shut down, and I can say that the decrease in MC flying hours is temporary with the consolidation. Right now, very few C-21 squadrons have the optimized mix of IP/MP/MCs right now. Many are "bottom heavy", with too many MCs. That will work itself out over time.

Most of that was due to the fact that MXF, RND and LFI stopped their intake of MCs, and AFPC sent them all to BLV and ADW. So those two places in particular are lopsided. COS will probably also get lopsided once OFF starts to shut down.

The good news is the MP upgrade is all local. At least you don't have to wait for a formal ACQ slot, like most of the MWS guys. I know MWS copilots with well over the minimum quals to become MPs, but can't because there aren't enough ACQ slots. So MP and FP upgrades are mostly limited with a units' ability to line up IPs to do the training. Even at little Maxwell, we could upgrade two MPs or FPs at the same time (alternate flying days...each got one day to fly, one day off, etc). Larger squadrons, if they have a creative Current Ops guy, can upgrade more.

Can fighter/bomber pilots fly C-21's or is it only for heavy guys?

Mostly heavy pilots. And 2/3s of the C-21 pilot population are first assignment pilots from T-1 programs. However, there are a handful of former fighter/bomber dudes flying C-21s...mostly because they got disqual'd from flying ejection seat aircraft. I've heard of a former B-1 pilot and a former Viper pilot flying C-21s. Don't know what they are doing now.

Or will it be performance based from the C-21

As the others have said, it's based on your performance in C-21s, for the most part. If you have other honors (like UPT DG, ROTC DG, etc), that can also influence your "ranking". Yes, each FAP (first assignment pilot) is ranked from #1 to last. Each assignment cycle, the FAPs eligible for a new assignment are ranked, and then assigments are given out based upon this and whatever AFPC has available. It's alot like the UPT assignment system all over again, except more emphasis on officer skills, less on flying. But be warned, if you're a clutz in the airplane, that is a bad thing.

That system is subject to debate. The AF leadership seems to love it...watching a bunch of young FAP CGOs climb over each other hoping they get the C-17 to Hickam, and trying like hell to avoid the AWACS. I personally feel it should be more like a real assignment system, where your commander works with you to figure out where you go. In reality, what I think doesn't matter, and even in the MWS world you still get ranked one way or another. But at least there, commander discretion is a bigger player.

In the C-21 world, if the OG has you ranked #5 of 8 assignable people, even if all 8 of you are outstanding officers, you still lose. In the real world, the commander can say "yes, there are a few guys that I'd rank better than him, but they are all great guys, and I think Capt. So-n-so should get something better".

Also, as for the consolidation, is this going to kill my chances of a slot in about a year? And is 3 years a typical assignment with a OSA squadron

No, the consolidation will not hurt your chances. Pilot manning is based upon a crew to airplane ratio, not based upon the number of units. Basically, the C-21 world needed 1 1/2 crews per jet to be "100% manned". For example, Maxwell had 4 jets, so we needed 12 pilots. Usually AFPC will keep a unit slightly overmanned to deal with potential personnel fluxes. We typically had around 14-16 pilots.

So I doubt the consolidation would affect you. And yes, 3 years is typical. Some might leave a bit early, and a few might stay slightly longer, but those are done on a case-by-case basis. 90% of us leave by 3 years time on station.

[CHS17]

Speaking of Hickam, Travis, Dover, and Elmendorf for C-17's... Anyone know if any of these locations will be dropped in the next six months to UPT grads? (Sorry, a little off topic, I know)

[Guest STLCFII]

Just wondering how hard it is to get a C-21 after you go through one or two MWS tours? I know you have to do a white jet tour in your first three, but how do the numbers compare for C-21 or another exec plane to going back to be an UPT IP? Thanks!

[scoobs]

It is possible to get C-21's from fighter/bomber without being DQ.The way it worked was after his staff tour he was able to get on with Air Force Flight Standards Agency (AF liaison to the FAA) and they have 2 C-21's and 14 pilots.Probably not common but possible.