C-21 Learjet info

[Guest HueyPilot]

Speaking of Hickam, Travis, Dover, and Elmendorf for C-17's... Anyone know if any of these locations will be dropped in the next six months to UPT grads? (Sorry, a little off topic, I know)

McGuire will probably show up in the drops, if they haven't already. Hickam won't start getting airplanes until early FY06. I believe Travis and Dover are also FY06...and Elmendorf is last. So I doubt you'll see any of those in the drops anytime soon.

Just wondering how hard it is to get a C-21 after you go through one or two MWS tours? I know you have to do a white jet tour in your first three, but how do the numbers compare for C-21 or another exec plane to going back to be an UPT IP? Thanks

That depends. Each MWS has to give up a certain number of pilots to the UPT IP pool. But the C-21 is a "luxury" assignment, and if your MWS is undermanned or right near 100% manning, C-21 assignments may be hard to come along.

C-130 pilots are rare in the C-21 world. KC-135s used to be until just a couple years ago. There are also a limited number of C-17 pilots that go C-21. Most (90%) of the PQP (prior-qualified pilots) that I've met in the C-21 world came from the C-141, C-5 and KC-10. I knew a handful of KC-135 pilots, and one EC-130 pilot. Everyone else came from one of the first three I mentioned.

Since the orphaned C-141 pilots are now thinning, I think the C-21 world will start to see more C-17 folks moving into the community. And for whatever reason, the C-130 community has always been very stingy letting Herk drivers go to the Lear. I do know you can work an AETC tour, but OSA, pretty much forget it if you're C-130.

As for going from OSA to UPT, that's also very rare. The USAF typically wants pilots to have three flying tours prior to a staff job (unless you're a golden child). One of those tours can either be OSA, UPT or FTU. The other two will likely be operational MWS. Typically, you'll get your AETC/OSA tour done in either your first or second assignment, because your third operational MWS tour, they usually like to get some lower-level staff experience at the OSS/Group/Wing level prior to going to a true staff job.

For example, a friend of mine started out flying C-5s at Travis. Then he flew C-21s, and pinned on major prior to leaving. He went to Dover to an operational squadron for a bit, and now he's working at the wing level. He'll probably get out after this tour, but if he stayed in, that path would set him up for a staff job somewhere.

The only person I ever knew that had two white jet tours in his first three assignments was a guy I flew with at Maxwell. He flew KC-135s for a few years, then got a T-37 IP job at Columbus. He worked the AFPC system and swung a C-21 to Maxwell. They tried to suck him back into the MWS (KC-135) again after we shut down, but again, somehow he managed to get an instructor job at AU there at Maxwell. I have no doubt that in a couple years he'll be flying Gulfstreams out of Hickam, because at that point, he'll be so useless to the USAF that they can't put him anywhere else.

Again, that individual is the ONLY person I've met that has managed that without a legit reason (I've met some who had hardship reasons...like a wife with a brain tumor, etc).

[Guest STLCFII]

What are the chances of getting a Gulfstream or or BBJ out of UPT? What about later in the career? Thanks!

[Guest TheBobGoat]

out of UPT - no Gulfstream or BBJ

there were some posts about some of these later in your career - see if a search turns anything up

i just know its competitive. so kick ass

[Gravedigger]

search under "89th"

[M2]

More cowbell

Cheers! M2

[Guest GummiBear]

That is such a classic skit. Will Ferrell may be out of shape, but that man is proud of what hes got.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Way to live in the past M2...

[Login Name]

Going back to Capts not being faiped or going to c-21s...does the same hold true for guys that track helos? I heard they won't give you a huey if you're already a capt. Any truth to the rumor?

[ 01. December 2005, 04:52: Message edited by: Login Name ]

[craino21]

I'm trying to think of a Capt that has gotten a Huey and can't... but they definitely don't tell us that they can't get a Huey. I'd say it's still possible, the last few classes have just had Capts that have done well, or were in the Guard and going to -60s anyways.

[scoobs]

Another C-21 question. Do certain location fly more due to being overmanned?

[pcola]

What are the odds of doing a C-21 tour, then an MWS tour, then an IP tour? I hear that two non-MWS tours are discouraged and that it will hurt your chances of making it beyond O-4. Any truth to that? I'm selecting in Jan and am considering a C-21, but I'd also go like to go back to Whiting to instruct at some point. Any thoughts?

[Guest jackhammer130]

Went to UPT Last July with a Capt from Little Rock (NAV type) who got helo's out of Laughlin. So I guess it is possible

[dmeg130]

My info is a little dated (pre-2000), but the CONUS C-21 units all seemed to be about the same as far as hours, upgrades, etc. The USAFE guys took a little longer to upgrade (at one point I think Stuttgart didn't have any initial IPs, only MWS guys).

Point is, if there's a C-21 out there, TAKE IT. It's the easiest flying job ever invented, you fly a ton, you upgrade quickly, you get to go all over the country (world sometimes) and stay in nice places, you might deploy once, you get a type rating, the sim is in Dallas, the plane's a little rocket... once I got to 130's I realized that I'd already learned how to be a nav, engineer, load, and radio operator in the Lear.

I know there's uncertainty in follow-ons, maybe some of the newer guys have more insight into that. But man, what a great gig!

[mmkk111]

Yep,

Everybody is flying about the same right now. As a new co-pilot, you can expect to fly about 30-40 hours a month. When you upgrade to AC, that will increase (which takes about a year, depending on how many people have to upgrade in front of you). You'll be home every night (sometimes late). You'll get plenty of time off. Deploy for 60 days once in your three years in the jet (unless you volunteer for other deployments). You'll go to a lot of cool airfields all over the US. You'll get very good at smiling when the General's aide keeps asking you to turn up the heat...oh, now it's to hot...oh wait, can you turn up the heat again.

As for the MWS to IP tour, from what I hear, the AF expects you to do back-to-back MWS's after the -21. I have no factual information to back that up, just what I've heard around the squadron.

MK

[M2]

Originally posted by C-21 Pilot:

Way to live in the past M2...

Beats living in the present sometimes, plus I sure as hell revived this thread, didn't I?

Cheers! M2

[Guest ruckerstud]

To answer the helo question. Yes, Captains can get helos, I have seen it done. On the flip side, helo studs can not get FAIPed, well it happened one time, but that was a special case. The is talk of using the Huey as the FAIP program, where everyone who gets a Huey goes to AFSOC there after. I don't know when or if this will happen, but the talk is out there.

[Guest gtyj98]

Originally posted by mmkk111:

As for the MWS to IP tour, from what I hear, the AF expects you to do back-to-back MWS's after the -21. I have no factual information to back that up, just what I've heard around the squadron.

MK

Straight from the horses mouth from the Strat functional puke at AFPC

Here's a synopsis--it's the same sh!t as when I flew Lears:

II. “Normal” Career Progressions

1. WHITE JET/OSA

1. MWS

1. MWS

2. MWS

2. WHITE JET/OSA

2. MWS

3. MWS

3. MWS

3. WHITE JET/OSA

It’s obvious from the above chart what the Air Force really wants out of people: SIX YEARS OPERATIONAL FLYING IN THE FIRST 10 YEARS OF A PERSON’S CAREER. More would always be better. The war will be won with steely-eyed AMC killers in the cockpits of MWSs. We use the white jet/OSA tour as a “shock absorber” to give people a break from flying the line. If you went OSA or FAIP first, look at the first column! Chances of you doing a repeat white jet/OSA tour prior to 6 years operational flying are very slim.

A question that commonly comes up is “Why 120 gates? I should be in staff now!” 120 gates=10 yrs of active flying. Without going into the millions of dollars in initial and follow-on training that is spent to make you a mission ready AC in the MWS, let’s just deal with UPT. The AF spends about $1 million per person for UPT. $1 miilion/10 yrs=$100,000 a year for your services as a UPT grad to the 10 year point. Is there another specialty in the military that has such an expensive initial cost? Furthermore, does it make sense to send a pilot to be a non-rated career-broadening job before the end of that period? No. The 120-gate month is to ensure that the Air Force gets a return on its investment in you. It also ensures that you have the operational background and experience to succeed in the rated staff world.

“Normal” is exactly what the word implies. If you get picked up for AFIP, HAWK, or any other kind of program, individual variations are worked on a case-by-case basis.

A word concerning OSA. OSA is viewed as a plum assignment for a number of reasons: lower TDY, cool airplanes, cool locations, and a lot less hassle when on the road. It is understandable that 20 credible vols could be generated for any conceivable OSA slot. However, OSA has not, is not, and never will be a “MUST FILL” bill. Releases to the OSA community are entirely dependant on MWS manning and the ability to fill other “must fill” bills (white jet, TALO, UAV, etc). So that begs the question, “If we don’t fill our must fill bills and/or the MWS is critically manned, we can’t send anyone to OSA?” Exactly…. I’m not including the 89th in here. I’ll cover that later.

[Champ Kind]

Nice post!

[Techsan]

Originally posted by scoobs:

Another C-21 question. Do certain location fly more due to being overmanned?

Peterson flys a descent amount of hours based on our location...we fly to Andrews @ least twice a week @ about a 7.0 roundtrip. For the most part though its all about timing...every unit goes through cycles of being either copilot heavy or AC/IP heavy...you just have to hit it right, so to speak. We have seen very few new guys recently, thanks to the C-17, so a lot more IP/IP rides. Yeah!!

[StoleIt]

Bumping this.

I just got off the phone with my CC who said the functional is looking to PCA someone over to C-21s and I'm on the short list (not a bad problem to have IMO). My concerns...I just made AC and wouldn't get IP in my MWS. What kind of issues might that cause? Next, I would have over 5 years on station (just over 3 yrs in my current sq and then expect 2 yrs in the C-21). Are there any pros/cons to that?

I am currently deployed so I can't pick up the phone and call the bro network so looking here first.

Thanks!

[C-21.Pilot]

Depends on what you want out of life. OG/CC or Airline Pilot

You will quickly (2 yrs or so) be an IP in the C-21, and quickly log IP hours. If you find it quicker to make IP in your current MWS, then I would stay.

Airlines care about IP hours, the AF cares about MWS IP hours.

Your call.

[nrodgsxr]

However if you don't have an O-6 pilot reading your PRF at the promotion board then who is going to notice you didn't make MWS IP?

[ThreeHoler]

The AF doesn't consider "C-21 IP" a real IP for some reason. That said, every C-21 IP I know (either UPT->C-21->MWS or UPT->MWS->C-21->return) made MWS IP very quick due to their prior instructor experience.

I know several people who were only FP qual'd when they were selected for O-4 (prior-Navs).

[Learjetter]

Volunteer immediately for C-21.

[Techsan]

It's not that big if a deal...MWS IP is > than OSA IP, however it's not the end all be all. When I left the C-21 in 2006, they just started the ACIQ flow for MWS guys coming over. If that's still the case, you'll quickly upgrade to IP. I'd bet it would be around the 1 year point.

The C-21 was a great time...simple jet, simple mission, & good flying.