ACSC online = Masters?

[Baseops.Net]

Help - I need confirmation of a rumor I just heard.

I heard (indirectly from the current Fall class at ACSC) that the ACSC syllabus is changing soon.

The course will be more involved and include writing of papers, etc. (and take more time) -- BUT, if you take it by correspondence (in the future), you WILL GET CREDIT FOR YOUR MASTERS too!

Anyone have any details and/or facts to add to this? I just came back TDY and you can be sure I will be calling down to Maxwell to find out more...

[Mitch Weaver]

I heard the same thing from Air U. cc down at shoe flag a few months ago. No IOC though...

[Guest Hoser]

It's true. I just signed up for the regualar, non Master's thru correspondance, but registration for the new Master's ACSC will start in Apr 07 and classes will start in Jun 07. You can find more at the ACSC page.

You'll have 24 months to complete, get Joint Professional Military Education (JPME) Phase I credit as well as AF IDE credit.

Cap-10

[ 19. September 2006, 21:33: Message edited by: Cap-10 ]

[Guest nunya]

From someone still several years from this, (yes I know it'll change 15 times between now and then)

It's looking like we'll need a Master's before our Major's board, right? Isn't that the effect of the whole unmasking deal? So if we already have a Master's from John Deere U for our O-4 board, what's the benefit of getting a second Master's with ACSC? Do you get the JPME credit with the non-masters program?

[ 19. September 2006, 21:44: Message edited by: nunya ]

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by nunya:

It's looking like we'll need a Master's before our Major's board, right? Isn't that the effect of the whole unmasking deal? So if we already have a Master's from John Deere U for our O-4 board, what's the benefit of getting a second Master's with ACSC? Do you get the JPME credit with the non-masters program?

For my board, my masters from ERAU was masked, and I know it is becoming unmasked either this year or next, so who knows what it will be for you.

My guess would be that two masters would look better than one for your O-5 board.

By taking the current, non-masters ACSC thru correspondance, you still get the Joint PME credit and the Air Force IDE credit.

Cap-10

[Herk Driver]

The official policy is that the USAF does not want to get back into the check the box mentality. When it makes sense to do so, they will send you/get you into a program, etc to get you a degree that helps further the AF mission. So, I'm not so sure that having the second Master's really helps anymore. Of course, with all things, this policy is valid only as long as the current leadership remains in place.

However, getting ACSC done as soon as possible and getting JPME I credit is a good thing. Now being able to get the Master's along with it is also a good thing. There is only room to list 3 degrees anyway, right?

[Guest SnakeT38]

FWIW................you don't need a Master's to "figure" out how to deposit your 15K per month airline salary.

[Herk Driver]

Gen Moseley took over as Chief in Sep 2005 and the following letter was published in Dec 2005.

MEMORANDUM FOR ALL MAJCOM-FOA-DRU/CC

FROM: AFIDP

SUBJECT: Developmental Education

Developmental Education (DE) is a critical component of the force development

construct and represents a large investment in the continuum of our Airmen's growth. DE is a

deliberate process for developing our future leaders through traditional military education,

advanced academic degrees or experiential assignments with industry or academic institutions.

It's designed to provide the Airmen with the right learning program across the tactical,

operational, and strategic level for future utilization based on career field and Air Force needs.

Based on the demonstrated potential for further development, many officers are

"selected" for in-residence DE via their promotion board. As "selects", the Air Force has

committed to ensure they attend DE no later than their last year of eligibility. Therefore,

"selects" are not required to emoll in or complete the distance learning DE (correspondence,

seminar, etc.) while waiting for in-residence class attendance. "Candidates," or those not

selected for in-residence DE by their promotion board, are encouraged to complete distance

learning DE due to limited opportunities to attend in residence.

The Force Development team is dedicated to serving our people and the Air Force. To maximize

time and minimize PERSTEMPO, supervisors, commanders, and senior raters need to

change their mindset that "practice bleeding" makes an officer better. Our future leaders will receive

the right level of developmental education at the right time.

I think that last sentence still says that you will get edumacated when the AF needs you to in order the meet the needs of the AF. Since school selection boards are still not giving people what they want, when they want, it appears that the AF is still "forcing" some people to go to AFIT that wanted to do ACSC, for example. The people that used to be candidates off their promotion board are now selects and I don't know anyone that has not gone to school that was a "select" from their promotion board. Do you?

That being said, I would get my Master's as early as I could if I were a 2Lt. Do it while you still have the time to do it. Even the message that came out about getting a Master's emphasized the point that checking a box was not what they wanted. Why else would ACSC in correspondence be getting you a Master's these days when it didn't in the past? They are still looking for relevant advanced degrees, not basket weaving.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Herk Driver:

That being said, I would get my Master's as early as I could if I were a 2Lt. Do it while you still have the time to do it.

Awesome advice.

Originally posted by SnakeT38:

FWIW................you don't need a Master's to "figure" out how to deposit your 15K per month airline salary.

Snake,

To keep it in perspective (and grounded in reality for the 99.9% of the guys around here who are not 777 captains with great timing like you) please show us how one of these guys is going to be putting $15K a month in the bank with 3000 guys on the street and a 1990 hire as the most junior captian.

Advanced degrees are a good thing both to continue your career now and to get a job later in your life, especially if the major airline widebody captain option is not immediately available to you.

[KennyB]

Originally posted by Herk Driver:

That being said, I would get my Master's as early as I could if I were a 2Lt. Do it while you still have the time to do it. Even the message that came out about getting a Master's emphasized the point that checking a box was not what they wanted.

They are still looking for relevant advanced degrees, not basket weaving.

So... what's a relevant degree that I have time for? I would submit that most online degrees (which is what I have time for) are going to be watered down somewhat compared to any degree acquired in residence. As a flying Lt/Capt, the options for taking any in residence classes don't couple so well with the flying schedule. I knew a few guys in C-21s who could pull off an in residence degree considering the low deployment rate, but that doesn't apply to most MWS situations.

My big question is this. Is the standard online MBA considered just checking the box/basket weaving? When my paperwork goes to the major's board, they can only see IF I have an advanced degree, not what that degree is in... right?

[KennyB]

Originally posted by Herk Driver:

Trust me, many of the professors at the on-base classes will work with you through deployments, exercises, etc. They know the drill and are extremly flexible.

If you think you don't have time now as a Lt/Capt, trust me, you aren't going to have the time later either.

I understand your point about my 'free' time evaporating as time goes on... I'm hip deep in an online MBA right now, and you're exactly right. On one hand, I wish I would have started it sooner so I could have it done by now. But on the other hand, I value my time as a C-172 flying, no responsibility casual 2Lt.

I guess the lesson there is we all have to pay the piper sometime.

There are a few of my flying buddies who seem to think there is value in waiting for the 'perfect' time to start a degree... when they can take classes in residence for example. I'm not sure, but I don't know many people who have pulled that off while on AD flying status.

But then again I'm a FNG.

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by kenblankenship:

There are a few of my flying buddies who seem to think there is value in waiting for the 'perfect' time to start a degree...

IMHO, there is NO perfect time.

Others chime in with your thoughts. I am 100% sure of one thing only; that I don't have all the answers.

[Whitman]

Originally posted by Herk Driver:

That being said, I would get my Master's as early as I could if I were a 2Lt.

That was my perspective right after I finished my Economics degree in May. I was enrolled in grad school two months later (after a trip to Hawaii) and will be finished in August 07, 13 months later. I'll be going casual in January but will continue it online since it is a dual program (online and class). By October when I start UPT I'll be ASBC complete, MBA complete, and will only have one thing on my mind. Flying jets. BL, you have no excuse for not getting it out of the way early. AFPC is practically giving us a freebie with long casual times. You can either screw off as a casual Lt and pay your dues later as a family man with flying duties, or get 'er done.

[ 19. October 2006, 08:01: Message edited by: whitman ]

[KennyB]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Awesome advice.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Rainman.............FWIW..........I have a Master's, got it very early, it has been almost worthless except for the square it filled on many

different RIPS' the USAF put out. FWIW, I am also

a graduate of every level of PME the USAF has offered, I played their game one time doing what they wanted the way they wanted it done, I guess I was unlucky,........they felt on the one O-6 board I met that they didn't need to promote enough guys to O-6 in the USAFR to even fill all the OPENINGS they had at the time. They changed their mind the year after I left. I'm sure the guy that figured out those numbers had some sort of USAF Master's degree, perhaps they even SENT HIM to AFIT on full pay to acquire those skills.

Now for the part of the airline story you don't seem to know much about. UPS and Fedex just signed huge pay raises and in the case of UPS there was a 60K signing bonus. It is well documented that in the case of FEDEX you get high PAY AND CREDIT (that means you don't fly "work" much). AA just opened with us 2 years early...............they have a reason for this...........we think we know why, there are many opinions. We retire almost 7000 pilots in the next 9 years (that leaves something like 2000) assuming there are not changes in the retirement age and even then the individual still gets to decide when to retire. Translated..........unless they ground the majority of the 700 planes we fly and "baby boomers" quite flying, we will hire as will everyone else. BTW...........we don't fly UAV airliners, so I expect we will probably NEED our pilots longer than the USAF will need theirs based on recent UPT numbers.

As for our 3000 pilots "on the street", only the absolute least qualified are still "on the street". Many are at FEDEX and UPS and SWA because they are, and will be hiring for a long time. As for me, I have never been a WB Captain

so I guess since you know how to "interpolate" pay charts you can figure out how I make what I make. The most important part of my job you have NEVER SEEN is the fact that regardless of how shitty the company may seem to be, how absolutely inept our Chief Pilot may seem to be, the "JOB" is over when I park the brakes. We don't do "face time" like all those programs in the USAF "prepare" you for. In fact, I did my pay check this month in 13 days and even on the few nights I did spend away from home, I spent them on 24 hour layovers at a 5 Star resort, on the beach in Puerto Vallarta...........and, I am a "domestic" pilot. I'm currently on 8 days off in a row and not on vacation, that's why I all of a sudden showed up on this forum. (I don't have to be at work to do Baseops.net)

My entire point in this discussion is that the USAF is as good as they ever were at wasting people's time.............unless you are adept at

full, blown, ass kissing and agreeing with someone when you know they ARE DEAD WRONG "but" they are the boss, your career will look alot like mine or even yours...........which means, you have to get another job. In the year 2006 just like 1956, it seems that MOST military pilots for some reason want to become airline pilots.

BTW...........just to satisfy your curiosity, you can take those numbers above and multiply them

by an average of 85 to over 100 hours per month,

that doesn't mean you fly that much, but it is a good indicator of what is happening NOW. There is more to the paycheck than hours worked multiplied

by hourly rate.

BTW II............I just had a 777 Capt on my jumpseat down to Ft Myers who had a little over a year to go. His lump sum was looking like something north of 3 mil even after concessions from 2003 along with another 600K in 401K (you know that thing that the military was last to get on the boat with). He was also a retired USAFR O-6

with 6000 points.........do the math, and for 20 years his tax burden has been less than an O-4 on AD because of the 400 acre farm he had. He was buying his retirement home that he said was north of 1 mil, where he could fish, golf, or get suburned in almost the same spot.........he was a lucky one in that his soon to retire F/A wife still looked frozen in time at age 35 but was 55,

and among other obvious skills, she could do the

same sports as he and even wanted to.

BTW III, this post isn't a slam on the guy that

"sticks around" and gets his 20 or 30 or 40 years in the USAF.............it's for the majority that perhaps are growing tired of the "lifestyle"

and like the "other things" in life that a life of

military service will almost never bring.

I have said before, once you realize that you don't have to insure with USAA, live near a base, shop at the commissary, among many other things, life can be good "on the outside".

BTW IV, I never knew the "value" of timing when I was on AD and even the early time in the USAFR, I was hired in 1987............a person hired at AA

in 1984 to mid 1985 made Captain 8 to 10 years before I did. This "timing" error is probably worth on the order of 700-1Mil in lost income and

at least that in retirement. So, just like many of the UPT guys I have spoken with over the last few years about what concerns them, I'm now talking to the many "fence sitters" and those that have almost done their 20 or 30 or 40.

Just to be sure Rainman, my words are not meant to "lure" you away from what you love.

[Champ Kind]

So, here's a question...

If I go ahead and "check the box", getting my Online MBA or something of the sort, would that hurt my chances for getting selected for an in-residence Graduate program (throgh the USAF) in the future?

ie, would whatever board is taking applications look at the files and say, "Oh, well this guy already has a Masters, even if it is from Clown College, BFE Campus.... He doesn't need this program"?

[Herk Driver]

Phlash,

It Depends!

I know people that have a Master's and were picked up to go to PME (IDE/SDE)which now is a Master's as well. I also know people that had a Master's and wanted to do ACSC/AWC and they were sent to AFIT to get a Master's that the AF wanted them to have.

Don't know what is going through the nuggets of the guys sitting on the boards. My take is that the USAF has always looked for indicators of success when selecting people for programs. If you have completed a Master's degree with a 4.0 then you can probably complete the academic program that you are applying for.

A guy that works with me had a Masters' degree and applied to do the Olmstead scholarship program. He was selected for that program and now has 2 Master's degrees. IMHO, I don't think you will be turned down for a program just because you have completed a Master's. The AF is looking to groom leaders and higher education, whether you like it or nor, is about building better leaders. It is about expanding the way you think, complex problem solving and critical thinking. These are the skills that the AF is looking for. This doesn't mean that the AF will send everyone to school.

That's why it is important for everyone to get started early and knock out the education requirement so they can remain competitive when they don't get selected for the program they wanted.

[Beaver]

In the flying world the AF is not about building better leaders, it's about building better pilots. I didn't know jack shit about leadership before I became an ALO. I'd already done ROTC, ASBC, and SOS, and you know what I learned about leadership in those courses? Nothing. What little I know about it now I learned from my TSgt NCOIC.

College degrees don't make you a leader. Neither does PME.

[Baseops.Net]

I think PME and Masters are a great way to take time away from your family (if you actually have one) during the scant moments that you are at home, in between rotations to fight the war.

I love the woefully typo-ridden, outdated (references to TQM), and poorly written articles that I am being forced to read as punishment (a.k.a. ACSC)... Seriously, is public speaking and writing a lost art in today's Air Force?

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by Baseops.Net:

I think PME and Masters are a great way to take time away from your family (if you actually have one) during the scant moments that you are at home, in between rotations to fight the war.

I love the woefully typo-ridden, outdated (references to TQM), and poorly written articles that I am being forced to read as punishment (a.k.a. ACSC)... Seriously, is public speaking and writing a lost art in today's Air Force?

I agree with part of that. Apparently, public speaking and writing are a lost art in the AF, but I would disagree that PME and a Master's have to be time taken away from your family. You can do both while deployed and fill the down time that you have. Make the most of the time that you already are forced to be away from home. PME and a Master's didn't force me to spend one more minute away from family than I was already spending. Use the "free" time while deployed to knock that stuff out.

[Baseops.Net]

If you are enrolled in the ACSC DL Masters Program, support Baseops.net by buying your books through us (in association with Amazon.com).

ACSC DL Reading List

[Guest Cam]

If you are enrolled in the ACSC DL Masters Program, support Baseops.net by buying your books through us (in association with Amazon.com).

ACSC DL Reading List

I just ordered and received $75 worth of books through Amazon for my next class. I wish you had posted this a few days sooner. I'll help you guys out next time.

BTW, this program is a BITCH. I put in 8-12 hours a day as a FTU IP, and then I get to spend hours on the computer doing my ACSC master's stuff, thereby eliminating what little family time I had before I started this crap. I just spent most of the weekend finishing the final exam research paper for my first class.

At least my wife seems understanding- she wants me to stay in and understands I need to get this knocked out if I'm to have any chance at O-5...

[Baseops.Net]

Yep, me too -- I just finished my final exam on Friday night (in hopes of having time off on the weekend). It is still better than doing the two separate courses, though (in my opinion).

[Guest Cam]

Yep, me too -- I just finished my final exam on Friday night (in hopes of having time off on the weekend). It is still better than doing the two separate courses, though (in my opinion).

Agreed, it is definitely advantagous to kill two birds with one stone. I don't have a master's, so for me to do a civilian master's and ACSC by correspondence would be an even larger pain in the ass.

Hopefully AU will cut down on the reading load a little (at least for the class I just took) and focus more on the online discussions, since (in my opinion) more learning takes place during the discussions than during the hundreds of pages worth of articles that we have to read.

Public disclaimer: The above was intended to be informative in nature, so that other BaseOps members can get an idea of what to expect if they enroll in the ACSC master's degree program. It is directed towards no one in particular...

Edited August 20, 2007 by Cam