KC-135 Tanker Q&A

[Guest Boom]

From our 1-1C-1:

EMCON 2 - Radio silent formation except for rendezvous and air refueling conducted with only two radio exchanges. Fifteen minutes prior to the rendezvous control time, receivers and tankers will exchange call signs, altitude and timing. The tanker will also give the aerial refueling altitude and any change in tanker timing that would affect the rendezvous (in minutes early or late). Altimeter setting and hot armament check will also be coordinated , if applicable. If not at the planned rendezvous altitude, an additional call is required when reaching that altitude. An abbreviated precontact radio check is required. Receivers will not depart precontact until either this radio check is accomplished or visual signals direct approach to contact.

I have only heard "stable ready" from C-17's. It's not required according to our regulations. And in the school house the IB's also stated it's not required.

[Stiffler]

Toro, never have i done a PP for a fighter. I did about 5 this semester including 3 over the last week for the RC guys. Its really not that common.

[Scooter14]

Toro,

I'll check on the "bean count" to see how many PP RZ's we need. It depends on you training level, newer guys need more. I know right now we're in the home stretch of the all-encompassing bean count, and everyone is scrambling to get that last ILS or Rendezvous.

Or Tactics sortie (don't ask).

I believe a Fighter Turn-On doesn't count as a RZ for a checkride (pilot or nav if we've got one on board), so that may be why they are asking.

We have a good mix of receivers here, so we really never need to ask for a PP from the fighters since we get enough on the airbridge and from the local KC-10s and C-5s.

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by Toro:

Along those lines, my question for the tanker guys - How often (for RAP or other training purposes) do you need to conduct point parallel rejoins? We cringe when you ask us if we want to/tell us you need to conduct a point parallel.

Lots of our "beans" depend upon crewmember experience level (Flight Training Levels A, B, C, D, or E as per 11-2KC-135v1 - Just about all of us are A, B or C as an IP/AC or Copilot), but regarding Point Parallel's, it looks like everyone needs 2 per semester (every 6 mos). With Enroute Rdvz, Flight Training Levels A and B are required 1 per semi annual, but C's need 2.

I must say I've have never done a PP rdvz with fighters and most would find it odd to do so. Bombers, cargo, other tankers, etc... yes. With only 2 being required every 6 months, it's not very hard to jump on a sortie with a heavy receiver to log a PP. Scooter, I'm not sure about that checkride thing. I had a checkride about 3 months ago and we went to an anchor and hit some 16's (fighter turn-ons). Vol 2 just says that a rdvz is required. It doesn't specify what kind. So as long as you log a "Tanker Rendezvous and A/R (N010)" which you'd co-log with a "Tanker Anchor Rdz & AR (N040)", you should be legal.

[ 15. December 2006, 01:27: Message edited by: PilotKD ]

[Gas Man]

Never done a fighter PP either. Man you E guys must be getting the pick of the litter.

I know it's not my unit's jets asking for PPs. We quit working with the SJ people. After the 10th time of driving an hour and then orbiting for an hour with no one showing up to get gas, then calling CP or your SOF and being told "they decided not to hit the tanker today." We called BS, and told them to find another unit.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by KIPP:

Never done a fighter PP either. Man you E guys must be getting the pick of the litter.

I know it's not my unit's jets asking for PPs. We quit working with the SJ people. After the 10th time of driving an hour and then orbiting for an hour with no one showing up to get gas, then calling CP or your SOF and being told "they decided not to hit the tanker today." We called BS, and told them to find another unit.

Haha...we've had similar incidents with the SJ guys as well. I guess our scheduling shop hasn't quite had enough of it YET. It is pretty irritating driving for an hour only to find out the receiver CNX'd BEFORE YOU TOOK OFF. Our SOF always calls the receiver base prior to our T/O to make sure it's going to happen, but once in a while the command post or receiver SOF guys don't seem to get the correct word. Ah well...guess I'll take the double-FTP and 4.0 of primary time even without an A/R.

In all seriousness to the SJ guys, or any receivers really, PLEASE try to keep the tankers in the loop on your A/R status. Most of us -135 guys have a decent haul to get to Kiwi, so it would definitely help us out.

[Scooter14]

This is also true if you are a heavy receiver.

The KC has a 200K gross weight landing restriction. When we take off to go hit a C-5 heading overseas, we typically have a gross weight around 285ish.

If we actually get airborne, and you canx, we now have to burn roughly 90K of gas to get below 200K.

We are not allowed to dump, unless it's an emergency.

We burn an average of 10K an hour. You do the math.

Add to this the fact you probably got alerted at 2000, it's now about 0030, and you only have one sandwich, and it makes for a long day.

It can be waived now, but depending on your runway available and other braking and landing distance factors, you probably are still looking at a few hours of boring holes in the sky with your gear down.

Sometimes, it's unavoidable, but I had a situation where the C-5 had diverted, and we never got the word, because the C-5 guys went through TACC only. Try us on HF, UHF, whatever, but if you can get us the word before we launch, it saves everyone a lot of hassle.

[Scooter14]

Here's one for the fighter guys...

If you have a scheduled ARCT of 1930, when do you push boom freq? When do you hit the tanker?

[Toro]

Originally posted by KIPP:

Never done a fighter PP either. Man you E guys must be getting the pick of the litter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we got them all the time, I've only done a couple. I was just wondering if it was some sort of RAP requirement.

Originally posted by KIPP:

We quit working with the SJ people. After the 10th time of driving an hour and then orbiting for an hour with no one showing up to get gas, then calling CP or your SOF and being told "they decided not to hit the tanker today." We called BS, and told them to find another unit.

Agreed, total BS. From the FTU perspective, if we schedule a tanker, we're going to use it unless we WX CNX (in which case you probably won't be there) or we MND (which is after you take off, unfortunately).

Originally posted by Bergman:

Our SOF always calls the receiver base prior to our T/O to make sure it's going to happen, but once in a while the command post or receiver SOF guys don't seem to get the correct word.

Don't use command post - they're fairly clueless about the flying schedule. My recommendation would be to call directly to the squadron who your scheduled receivers belong to - Top 3 should know exactly what's going on. If you're know sure what squadron your receivers are in, call the SOF or wing scheduling - it's listed on the wing schedule and they both have it.

Originally posted by Scooter14:

If you have a scheduled ARCT of 1930, when do you push boom freq?

When center tells us to switch to boom freq. At earliest, this is when we enter the AAR track, are deconflicted in altitude, and the tanker declares MARSA. Usually it's when we declare radar contact (and tanker declares MARSA). If center is slow to allow us to switch to boom freq and we want to move over, we have the option of contacting you on our UHF2.

Originally posted by Scooter14:

When do you hit the tanker?

I've never had a hard ARCT, it's generally a window. Within the window it totally depends on where in the sortie we're tanking. Since we generally have an hour-or-so ARCT block within the wing, we'll usually deconflict among ourselves when we're going to go to prevent a pile-up. This is N/A once we start working redballs and/or ground aborting. If you're curious as to what time you'll be getting your receivers, I would recommend you get the UHF frequency for the Top 3 radio - I've seen quite a few guys do this to get an update once they're airborne. Again, you can get the frequency by calling Top 3 or the SOF.

Originally posted by Scooter14:

We are not allowed to dump, unless it's an emergency.

I learned this a few years back on a night sortie in England. Six jets scheduled to go to the tanker for 4K each. First two-ship ground aborts with no spares. Top 3 calls us as my two-ship is taxiing and tells us to take the gas of the two-ship that aborted. The second two-ship gets airborne, but has an IFE - they both dump fuel and come back and land since they won't be effective as a single-ship. Top 3 calls again - take their gas, too. My #2 aborts in the arming area and I get cleared single-ship takeoff. With the flying windown ending about 1.5 from our takeoff, our only job was to bleed the tanker dry - 24K was the fragged offload for all the jets. We hauled ass out to the tanker track and topped off with gas, then turned over the ocean, plugged in the burner and did a Mach run until we were down to internal fuel. Hit the tanker again until they had their 24K offload complete, then turned to RTB with the dump switch on the entire way.

[Guest trebuin]

www.afdriver.com

This is block 30 stuff for now. The academics is pretty much finished and the flightline stuff is still a work in progress. It also has the only STM reference for T-1s on the web. Block 40 will be up in a few months. Enjoy!

And yes, you really don't need gouge but this helps to make better pilots.

[Steve Davies]

Apologies for the dull question. Why don't you KC-135 guys leave your pubs on the jet when you're done flying? Seems like an awful lot of luggage to wheel around with you for every flight:

[Guest Hydro130]

Not just them! Lots of Herk folks have to do the r-diculous bag-drag too...

Some (many?) heavy ANG / AFRES units do indeed keep the main pubs on the plane. That hasn't ever really caught on for the Active Duty, for whatever reason... Some people are just very, very partial to using their own pubs, even if it does mean looking like hilary clinton's hotel porter every time you bumble to/from the plane. Plus, active duty units seem to have enough headaches maintaining just one good set of stan/eval reference pubs in the squadron, let alone a set for each jet.

As electronic pubs come on line, this whole issue should be simplified. Maybe.

Cheers, Hydro

[LT4Life]

In theory that would be nice and convenient but it could eventually lead to problems. With such an old jet we more often than not have changes to the pubs that need to be posted so I'm sure Stan/Eval doesn't want to run around to each jet to line through a "shall" for a "should" or whatever. Also, we have to check our pubs before we step to make sure we have all of the current changes and also each put as well. Having a missing or outdated pub when we get to the jet could delay our take off because we wouldn't be legal to takeoff without it and then we'd miss another reciever. It's more credible to canx because of maintenance then an outdated pub.

[Scooter14]

LT4Life,

Your argument holds no water.

We leave ours on the jet. We have a Stan/Eval guy responsible for updating them. Each jet has a bag with the tail # on it.

When a change comes out, a message gets posted on the mission planning room board. Each crew stepping to fly is instructed to bring in the pubs bags. The booms take care of this. The pubs guy then goes and grabs them off of the remainig aircraft. He changes them out, then he puts the bags in the room by the door. This is the booms last stop...they check to see if any bags need to go out to the jet. If the pubs bag with our assigned tail # is there, we grab it and bring it out to that jet.

Every year, we gather round the new guys and do the page count. Takes all day, but then you are done for the next 364.

When I go to fly, I take a helmet bag with my headset, checklist, gloves, survival kit, sandwich, bottle of soda and my binder of gouge that I have accumulated over the years. That's it. Sure beats lugging all that shit out to the jet every time you fly.

And I have NEVER missed a receiver due to pubs.

[Scooter14]

Scooter,

Sounds like you guys got it figured out. Maybe I'll bring up your method to our guys. Thanks for the detail.

It sure saves ass pain.

I was thinking about my resonse and why the AD doesn't do that. Besides the fact that the AD likes to make things more complicated (trust me, the ANG can too), if you are at a base where there are multiple squadrons (my base only has one) and you interfly the jets, then it may be worth just bringing your own pubs unless OGV took care of it. You'd have to run it out of Base Ops or some location where every crew went before they stepped to ensure the pubs got there, or you'd be driving pubs bags to 69 different tails.

At a place like the Died, where jets min turn every day and the staff is maxed out already, there simply isn't time to post changes, so it's best for the crew to just have their own.

I think it could work at a place like MacDill or Robins, though...

[Guest Boom]

Here at KSKA Stan Eval for both squadrons built a Block 40 and Block 30 pub kits. So now when the Booms check out COMSEC/FLIP we also check out a pubs kit. We also have e-pubs.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Boom

[Bergman]

even if it does mean looking like Paris Hilton's hotel porter every time you bumble to/from the plane. Plus, active duty units seem to have enough headaches maintaining just one good set of stan/eval reference pubs in the squadron, let alone a set for each jet.

As electronic pubs come on line, this whole issue should be simplified. Maybe.

Cheers, Hydro

That's just plain funny. I also think the reason AD people are ate up about their pubs is because they are ate up about checkrides and queep in general. I'm not saying the ANG doesn't follow the rules...just interesting how there seems to be a bigger picture here (due to higher experience levels maybe?)

As for Steve's original question...my experience is very similar to Scooter's. My unit, and the 3-4 others I've flown with, all pre-position their pubs on each aircraft. Some flunky in Stan/Eval then gets to go update the pubs every month or so. With only 9 airplanes it only takes a few hours. It's a pain, but it ensures a pretty high degree of standardization on every airplane the units owns. The pubs all look exactly the same and are stored in the same spot on every aircraft (like all of our required equipment/life support stuff).

[barney]

For those of you who are about to get incredibly pissed because I am posting here, I just want you to know that I have searched, talked to other people and thought long and hard before actually wasting your time with this question. Get pissed

For everyone else, I have some questions on what is going on with KC-135 navs. It is no secret that navs are being replaced by PACER-CRAG and that navs are getting the boot. However, they are still dropping out of Randolph and going to McConnel. My questions are...

-I hear that the navs do ALOT of mission planning and not so much of the actual flying. Is this true, so they plan, brief, and then say "go have fun"?

-I guess they need a nav for SOAR missions. Are these common, is this what is happening in the AOR?

-How bad are you really shooting yourself in the foot by being a KC-135 nav?

-Does the Nav kind of have trouble earning his keep and getting any respect from others in the SQ?

-I've heard that they were making navs write a letter as to why they DID NOT want to go to pilot training? Do they want to get rid of them that bad?

-Is McConnel the only base to go to? I've heard they shut down WR and Fairchild has no navs.

-Seems like a nav would have alot of time on his hands to maybe hang out in kansas and get a masters?

Just a few questions I had, serious inquiries only please, Thanks

[capt4fans]

For those of you who are about to get incredibly pissed because I am posting here, I just want you to know that I have searched, talked to other people and thought long and hard before actually wasting your time with this question. Get pissed

For everyone else, I have some questions on what is going on with KC-135 navs. It is no secret that navs are being replaced by PACER-CRAG and that navs are getting the boot. However, they are still dropping out of Randolph and going to McConnel. My questions are...

-I hear that the navs do ALOT of mission planning and not so much of the actual flying. Is this true, so they plan, brief, and then say "go have fun"?

-I guess they need a nav for SOAR missions. Are these common, is this what is happening in the AOR?

-How bad are you really shooting yourself in the foot by being a KC-135 nav?

-Does the Nav kind of have trouble earning his keep and getting any respect from others in the SQ?

-I've heard that they were making navs write a letter as to why they DID NOT want to go to pilot training? Do they want to get rid of them that bad?

-Is McConnel the only base to go to? I've heard they shut down WR and Fairchild has no navs.

-Seems like a nav would have alot of time on his hands to maybe hang out in kansas and get a masters?

Just a few questions I had, serious inquiries only please, Thanks

OK my take is biased and old since I'm no longet a Nav and went through Randolph in 00-01. However, even in that time frame the only Nav slots to 135's were to McConnell.

So to answer the questions as best as I can.

1. Don't know. I do know they use navs at Whiteman in that capacity. Then again, the B2 never had a nav on board at all.

2. Yes. Don't know. Yes in OIF from where I flew from. (Nav at that time)

3. I'd have to say you need to be the top of the top since they're headed the way of the dinosaur. And possibly look at moving to another MWS if posible after a tour there.

4. Not in the squadron I was in. Again, not a 135, but a plane with 2 GPS and 2 INS. You are the mission planning expert. That's where you earn your keep. I never had a problem with respect. Here's my one good story. I was still a young Nav(by my accounts) and the AC went to the back for a piss break. As he left the flight deck, he looked my straight in the eye and said, "Make sure he (Copilot) doesn't do anything stupid." That's when I knew they thought I was good at my job.

5. Never heard that, and no they don't want to get rid of navs, it's just the way things are going.

6. Yes. And that was the case in 00-01 when I went through Randolph.

7. I wouldn't hang out in Kansas, I'd drive elsewhere....but definitely get the masters early. It's no fun as a senior captain trying to get that and SOS and all the other responsibility that comes with age and rank.

[Young Crow]

It is no secret that navs are being replaced by PACER-CRAG and that navs are getting the boot. However, they are still dropping out of Randolph...

First of all, I'll say I'm not a KC-135 nav.

There's a rumor out there that being a KC-135 nav is a sure ticket to UPT. That may have been about 40% true when PACER CRAG first came along, and even then probably more for the ARC/ANG than AD. I certainly don't think that's the case now.

Don't be like the guy near the tail end of my nav class: he was sure that KC-135's meant a sure ticket to being a pilot. You still have to be an exceptional dude to go from nav to UPT on active duty, because you have to compete against all the other navs and non-rated guys for a spot.

[Guest Boom]

-I hear that the navs do ALOT of mission planning and not so much of the actual flying. Is this true, so they plan, brief, and then say "go have fun"?

From what I've heard from some McConnell guys is Navs fly on SOAR missions and enough line missions just to maintain currencies. When they aren't do that, they work in the OSS.

-I guess they need a nav for SOAR missions. Are these common, is this what is happening in the AOR?

Dunno

-How bad are you really shooting yourself in the foot by being a KC-135 nav?

Navs as a whole are a dying breed. I came from a C-130 squadron before I became a Boom and my Sq/CC and two other Navs there were prior 135 Navs. So if you hate the tanker, I would assume it's easy to crossflow into a Slick.

-Does the Nav kind of have trouble earning his keep and getting any respect from others in the SQ?

You don't fly or refuel.

-I've heard that they were making navs write a letter as to why they DID NOT want to go to pilot training? Do they want to get rid of them that bad?

Doubt it. Applying to a UPT board is just the same as if you were any other AFSC.

-Is McConnel the only base to go to? I've heard they shut down WR and Fairchild has no navs.

I think McConnell is the only base left for 135 Navs since Robins is closing down and sending their jets to Macdill. I don't think Mildenhall has Navs anymore either. Plus the schoolhouse for 135 Navs moved to McConnell from Altus last year. I'm at Fairchild and we don't have any Navs in the flying squadrons.

-Seems like a nav would have alot of time on his hands to maybe hang out in kansas and get a masters?

If that's your goal, maybe you should think of putting down the 135.

[scawtiedog]

I'm a pilot at McConnell right now, so I'll try and help you out a little.

-I hear that the navs do ALOT of mission planning and not so much of the actual flying. Is this true, so they plan, brief, and then say "go have fun"?

No, that's not the case at all. You will normally only plan the missions you actually fly on. There are a few exceptions (i.e. the SOAR shop plans all SOAR missions, so if you work in there you will).

-I guess they need a nav for SOAR missions. Are these common, is this what is happening in the AOR?

As a nav, you will deploy at least every other rotation to the AOR and fly SOAR (typically 20-25 missions per 60-day depending on what's going on at the time). They are currently in the process of adding more comm/SA systems to the SOAR mission, so I don't see the navs leaving any time soon.

-How bad are you really shooting yourself in the foot by being a KC-135 nav?

Doing a rotation as a 135 nav will leave you a number of different options. I know a lot of people that have been picked up for a pilot slot after 3 years as a nav. There are also other places to go (including UAV's if that's your thing)

-Does the Nav kind of have trouble earning his keep and getting any respect from others in the SQ?

Absolutely not. I have a lot of respect for my navs and if I had it my way would fly with one every sortie. They are invaluable for our SOAR missions when there's a lot going on and an extra set of eyes to keep you out of trouble.

-I've heard that they were making navs write a letter as to why they DID NOT want to go to pilot training? Do they want to get rid of them that bad?

I've never heard of this, probably some bogus rumor (or maybe a USAFA thing?).

-Is McConnel the only base to go to? I've heard they shut down WR and Fairchild has no navs.

As far as I know, McConnell is the only base left, although I've heard there are some special-duty assignments at Mildenhall (from a Nav friend of mine that was looking at his options).

-Seems like a nav would have alot of time on his hands to maybe hang out in kansas and get a masters?

Definitely have some time to get your masters between your time at home and also while deployed. Also have time for civilian flying if you want (maximize your PCSM, etc.).

Hopefully that clears some of it up. Let me know if you have more questions, I can always pass them along to some of my nav buddies over here.

Scott

[Mambo]

Is McConnel the only base to go to? I've heard they shut down WR and Fairchild has no navs.

I'm pretty sure that there was a -135 Nav position at Kadena when I left there in '05

[GBock]

I'm pretty sure that there was a -135 Nav position at Kadena when I left there in '05

There are a handful of navs at Kadena.

As for everything else, I'm with scawtiedog.

[barney]

Really great responses folks, I definately appreciate ya'll taking the time to answer these Q's with some intelligence. Thanks again for your help and helping me make an informed decision.

Real fast, What types of locations do the McConnel guys usually go to. What are some pretty standard TDY's and for how long? Are medevac and cargo transport pretty common? Do most crews get a chance to "see the World".

Thanks

Edited May 23, 2007 by barney