KC-135 Tanker Q&A

[scawtiedog]

Really great responses folks, I definately appreciate ya'll taking the time to answer these Q's with some intelligence. Thanks again for your help and helping me make an informed decision.

Real fast, What types of locations do the McConnel guys usually go to. What are some pretty standard TDY's and for how long? Are medevac and cargo transport pretty common? Do most crews get a chance to "see the World".

Thanks

Most of your trips will be to the desert. We are finally starting to get coronets more commonly and medevac's once in a while (although the guard and reserve tend to pick up most of the medevac's). We don't really any cargo transport except for sitting maintenance bravo once in a while (go pick up a part and mx team and deliver them to a broken jet somewhere in the system). I'll tell you up front, it's getting more and more tough to get a nav on our TDY's due to money unless we can justify some sort of training with it and sell it to the OG (all depends on who's in charge). With that said, we've been able to send navs TDY pretty frequently recently (just had one do a coronet, another do a local TDY, both within the last month).

As for TDY locations, it varies quite a lot. We have coronets going east (Turkey, Souda Bay, etc.) and west (Hawii, Japan, etc.) as well as some random places. I went to South America for 2 weeks on a banner mission, been to Edwards for F-22 support, etc. There's definitely opportunity to "see the World", although maybe not quite as often as the airlifter guys.

Edited May 23, 2007 by scawtiedog

[Guest Deke]

I was curious as to what the deployment cycles for AD 135 pilots are like? Do you operate on a AEF cycle or not?

[Guest Boom]

I was curious as to what the deployment cycles for AD 135 pilots are like? Do you operate on a AEF cycle or not?

We do 60 day rotations at KSKA. We don't do AEF's, we're technically coded as Enablers. The OG here has a deployment "matrix" for crews to see when they're scheduled. Not factoring in plus up crews or anything you could look at going 1-2 a year depending on how many new copilots you have (we have alot here).

[scawtiedog]

We do 60 day rotations at KSKA. We don't do AEF's, we're technically coded as Enablers. The OG here has a deployment "matrix" for crews to see when they're scheduled. Not factoring in plus up crews or anything you could look at going 1-2 a year depending on how many new copilots you have (we have alot here).

"2", same applies for McConnell, 1 - 2 60-days a year, plus TDY's.

[Scooter14]

The Guard still gets thrown in the AEF "bucket" however often that happens. My unit is part of 7/8 along with 3 other tanker units from other states. We were scheduled to go to a CENTCOM location, but due to the deployed commander's time requirements, we ended up supporting Guam this year. These are 14-18 day rotations, but you can volunteer to go for longer, if you would like. If they need you for a longer period of time, they will mobilize you.

Allegedly, the ANG tanker folks will be taking over an AOR tanker operation sometime in the very near future, but where and when remains to be seen.

The ANG units also do quite a few 2-14 day "trips"...Germany, exercise support, Coronets, etc.

[Guest PilotKD]

The Guard still gets thrown in the AEF "bucket" however often that happens. My unit is part of 7/8 along with 3 other tanker units from other states. We were scheduled to go to a CENTCOM location, but due to the deployed commander's time requirements, we ended up supporting Guam this year. These are 14-18 day rotations, but you can volunteer to go for longer, if you would like. If they need you for a longer period of time, they will mobilize you.

Allegedly, the ANG tanker folks will be taking over an AOR tanker operation sometime in the very near future, but where and when remains to be seen.

The ANG units also do quite a few 2-14 day "trips"...Germany, exercise support, Coronets, etc.

I've "heard" that the AD higher ups don't want us (the guard) doing such short rotations to CENTCOM. They want us doing the 30-60 day shindigs like we were doing on AD, but obviously that's not going to jive with most guardsmen with civilian commitments. So I believe the answer was, you either let us do 14-18 day rotations or we won't play (unless you mobilize us). We were supposed to take over the operation in that certain "stan" country (which actually wouldn't be such a bad gig). A lot better than the Deid.

[Clayton Bigsby]

When people are doing those 14-18 day rotations, are those on MPA orders, or Annual Tour?

[Stiffler]

When people are doing those 14-18 day rotations, are those on MPA orders, or Annual Tour?

Not AT days, they are Title 10 active duty, paid for by the feds.

I doubt you'll see the guard taking over an AOR committment. With AD guys only deploying 2- 60 day cycles a year, good luck getting the govt to approve an activation, and without 15 day rotations, the guard cant staff it. I heard this directly from the wing commander at Manas (which i had the pleasure of flying with...by pleasure I mean no pleasure at all) who said "no less than 30 day rotations." He is under the impression that we cant get spun up and fly in 15 days. He forgets that his missions really arent difficult at all, and most of us have all been to war before, as well as coronets, aeromeds, and every mission the tanker does. Besides, some missions out of Guam are mind blowingly complicated, and we do that just fine.

But Im not complaining at all. Someone has to do Guam and Curacao. And if we arent gonna get retirement till 60, Ill take the good deal and not feel guilty.

I have deployed to the AOR though with Active duty, before anyone calls me out (Scooter )

Edited July 1, 2007 by Stiffler

[Guest Rainman A-10]

There is legit concern about the two week Guard rotations. Things can ramp up quickly and the missions can go from "Stiffler easy" to holy sh!t almost over night. The commanders don't want a whole slew of new guys showing up when things get complicated. I think it's more of a fighter thing but there's always some bleed over.

Not everyone trusts the Guard to be able to show up and kick ass with zero spin-up, regardless of "experience." Unfortunately, the AD has a long memory when it comes to Guard buffoonery. All they remember is that "the Guard" screwed up.

The best way to react to this attitude is to try to blend in instead of stand out (avoiding the "hey man back off, I'm in the Guard" bullshit), lash up with your AD counterparts as team mates instead of adversaries and make sure you are doing a kickass job.

[Stiffler]

The best way to react to this attitude is to try to blend in instead of stand out (avoiding the "hey man back off, I'm in the Guard" bullshit), lash up with your AD counterparts as team mates instead of adversaries and make sure you are doing a kickass job.

As many of us are doing by volunteering to augment AD pretty often. That mix has been working well.

[MD]

Speaking of -135s, I don't ever remember seeing any E models in theatre during any of my deployments there. Were they not being utilized?

[Stiffler]

Speaking of -135s, I don't ever remember seeing any E models in theatre during any of my deployments there. Were they not being utilized?

All E models are Guard and Reserve, Guard and Reserve tankers arent in the desert.

[Fozzy Bear]

Though they don't come to the desert, they do come to Turkey and places like that.

FWIW, I'm a pretty new Co at McConnell, which to us means I deploy at least 3 times a year on a 60 day rotation, plus maybe a short one here and there. We really don't mind all that much, cause we don't fly that much at home, and the desk job sucks ass.

Edited July 4, 2007 by Toro

[HookEmAll]

Up at Grand Forks, ACs are doing 1-2 per year. I think copilots are actually more like 1 a year unless you fight to go more. It's not horrible by any stretch, but it could be better... I mean, it's North Dakota.

[Scooter14]

Not AT days, they are Title 10 active duty, paid for by the feds.

I doubt you'll see the guard taking over an AOR committment. With AD guys only deploying 2- 60 day cycles a year, good luck getting the govt to approve an activation, and without 15 day rotations, the guard cant staff it. I heard this directly from the wing commander at Manas (which i had the pleasure of flying with...by pleasure I mean no pleasure at all) who said "no less than 30 day rotations." He is under the impression that we cant get spun up and fly in 15 days. He forgets that his missions really arent difficult at all, and most of us have all been to war before, as well as coronets, aeromeds, and every mission the tanker does. Besides, some missions out of Guam are mind blowingly complicated, and we do that just fine.

But Im not complaining at all. Someone has to do Guam and Curacao. And if we arent gonna get retirement till 60, Ill take the good deal and not feel guilty.

I have deployed to the AOR though with Active duty, before anyone calls me out (Scooter )

Dude,

I haven't called you out in at LEAST a month or two. It's been all Rainman, all the time...oh, and Beaver with the whole "dudes in the locker room thing" which I refrained from commenting on in the "I'd hit that buxom Capt in the Short Skirt, Long Jacket video" thread. And I would hit that. No questions asked. Back to the topic at hand...

As for the wing king in Manas, he's the reason we're going to Guam again and not his location for exactly the reasons you stated.

On my last OIF trip, the AC who flew as our "over the shoulder" learned more from us than we did from him. The AD does it all the time, that's the only thing that gets them the "experience". If they'd let us play instead of ruling the four square court, we'd be experienced, too.

Then they'd be out of a job because we can do it better. And cheaper.

I completely understood Rainman's point about the Guard buffonery. I think it's the root cause, and it's unfortunate that the Guard has to overcome that hurdle.

The solution: Mobilize the units in the AEF bucket for the duration, that gives people an out when it comes to their employer. Very unpopular for many reasons, but you and I have both seen how much they are leaning on the AD tankers and how little they lean on the ANG tankers.

I know our unit has been engaged in the battle for a "Reserve component" operation in the AOR. I know other units are as well. Some units are content in doing 3 day guardlifts to Peoria and Hickam runs. Some want to do more and get little satisfaction from Jump Start and other bullshit like that, especially when their Army brothers fly back to their air patch after 15 months away from the USA.

If they were smart, they'd run it just like SOUTHCOM or GK, just make it a little longer. Hell, the AD guys do a weekly swapout, what makes the Guard that much different, except time in theater. Also, in this age of the internet, why do we have to sit through three days of briefs in theater. Give it to us at home en masse before we head over, then rotate us through. Hit the ground running instead of hit the grund briefing.

[Guest PilotKD]

Up at Grand Forks, ACs are doing 1-2 per year. I think copilots are actually more like 1 a year unless you fight to go more. It's not horrible by any stretch, but it could be better... I mean, it's North Dakota.

Is this the same Grand Forks I was at not even a year ago? Things must have changed. When I was there, AC's were doing about 3 - 60 day'rs a year. Co's, maybe 2. When I showed up there in '05, we were short on Co's. Some co's were doing 4 a year. I did two 60 day'rs in the first 7 months I was mission ready. If their deployment rates have gone down that much, good for them,

[Guest Bret93YJ]

Headed to Altus next week for 135 piq. I'm the first guy from my unit to go through the block 40 initial class...Anyone out there got any info? Since it's a new class being offered there is NO gouge out there.

Just a shot in the dark...

Bret

[GBock]

Headed to Altus next week for 135 piq. I'm the first guy from my unit to go through the block 40 initial class...Anyone out there got any info? Since it's a new class being offered there is NO gouge out there.

Just a shot in the dark...

Bret

Here's some gouge:

Read the -1.

[Bergman]

Separate question...

Any idea if ACIQ is still going on at Altus? If so, any idea if that'll continue into/past FY09?

Bret, I have no real answer for your question other than to say the standard "don't worry about it". I'll venture a guess that it will be almost transparent to you (vs. the Block 30 stuff) because the CBTs are pretty must a 1-for-1 swap. Using the equipment on the jet is 100x easier than the CBTs lead you to believe. Although, I am sure the guys at Altus will find ways make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Bergman

[Guest Boom]

Separate question...

Any idea if ACIQ is still going on at Altus? If so, any idea if that'll continue into/past FY09?

Bret, I have no real answer for your question other than to say the standard "don't worry about it". I'll venture a guess that it will be almost transparent to you (vs. the Block 30 stuff) because the CBTs are pretty must a 1-for-1 swap. Using the equipment on the jet is 100x easier than the CBTs lead you to believe. Although, I am sure the guys at Altus will find ways make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Yes, cause my squadron is sending our last FPC Copilot (with 2,500 hours) to PUP this summer. I would guess it would continue until all the traditional Co's still left in the Guard/Reserve upgrade.

[amcflyboy]

Yes, cause my squadron is sending our last FPC Copilot (with 2,500 hours) to PUP this summer. I would guess it would continue until all the traditional Co's still left in the Guard/Reserve upgrade.

Exactly, welcome to the MPD world. I'm the first in my unit (LC-130's) to go through MPD, and they friggin hate it, along with 99% of the Guard/Rerserve world.

[Tone deaf]

Separate question...

Any idea if ACIQ is still going on at Altus? If so, any idea if that'll continue into/past FY09?

Bret, I have no real answer for your question other than to say the standard "don't worry about it". I'll venture a guess that it will be almost transparent to you (vs. the Block 30 stuff) because the CBTs are pretty must a 1-for-1 swap. Using the equipment on the jet is 100x easier than the CBTs lead you to believe. Although, I am sure the guys at Altus will find ways make it more difficult than it needs to be.

I believe that there are no more PUP classes in FY09, so the remaining upgrades should be complete this year. As for the Block 40 PIQ training, there is a big shift in the proportion of flightline and sim training. Instead of 16 sim missions and 9 or so flights, the Block 40 training consists of 24 sim missions, 3 flights and a checkride.

[Bergman]

I believe that there are no more PUP classes in FY09, so the remaining upgrades should be complete this year. As for the Block 40 PIQ training, there is a big shift in the proportion of flightline and sim training. Instead of 16 sim missions and 9 or so flights, the Block 40 training consists of 24 sim missions, 3 flights and a checkride.

WTFO?!? There is NO WAY on God's Green Earth that you can learn to fly a KC-135 safely in 3 flights. No fucking way.

I don't care how many sims you suffer through. The sim just isn't that good. I know other platforms have been doing this for years, but they aren't 50 years old either (and therefore fly like they're 50 years old).

This is going to be a real treat when these guys start coming back to the squadron, banging them on (sts), and setting off the asinine hard landing light (which is a whole different rant altogether), and generally screwing up the entire mission flow. Ugh.

Since this is still PIQ, they are getting 3 flights to do all of the events in BOTH seats??? R/L seat 4 eng, 3 eng, EFTOC, 30 flap, etc? Again, YGBSM. The new guys we're getting back now can barely run the fuel panel, let alone fly the jet...and that is with 12 flights. This is madness.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Bergman

[Guest Boom]

WTFO?!? There is NO WAY on God's Green Earth that you can learn to fly a KC-135 safely in 3 flights. No ing way.

I don't care how many sims you suffer through. The sim just isn't that good. I know other platforms have been doing this for years, but they aren't 50 years old either (and therefore fly like they're 50 years old).

This is going to be a real treat when these guys start coming back to the squadron, banging them on (sts), and setting off the asinine hard landing light (which is a whole different rant altogether), and generally screwing up the entire mission flow. Ugh.

We had a squadron briefing about this before I deployed. By doing more sims (Altus and KC-135 base wide) it would bring the KC-135 on the same line as other Mobility MWS's. It's cheaper to fly a sim than the real thing.

[Tone deaf]

WTFO?!? There is NO WAY on God's Green Earth that you can learn to fly a KC-135 safely in 3 flights. No ######ing way.

I don't care how many sims you suffer through. The sim just isn't that good. I know other platforms have been doing this for years, but they aren't 50 years old either (and therefore fly like they're 50 years old).

This is going to be a real treat when these guys start coming back to the squadron, banging them on (sts), and setting off the asinine hard landing light (which is a whole different rant altogether), and generally screwing up the entire mission flow. Ugh.

Since this is still PIQ, they are getting 3 flights to do all of the events in BOTH seats??? R/L seat 4 eng, 3 eng, EFTOC, 30 flap, etc? Again, YGBSM. The new guys we're getting back now can barely run the fuel panel, let alone fly the jet...and that is with 12 flights. This is madness.

Bergman,

Believe me, your reaction was echoed at tanker squadrons everywhere. The AF is trying to save training $ and the generals look at the -135 training EPs in the jet when the other heavies do it in the sim and wanted to standardize. The PIQs will get an instrument qual checkride in the sim, which includes landings and EPs, and get a mission check in the jet, which includes refueling and tactics. Most folks are not pleased that we're moving in this direction, but the decisions have been made. I think it will take at least one or more serious mishaps where inadequate training is found as a causal factor to raise questions about this change, but you know as well as I that any f*ckups by a PIQ will likely be blamed on the AC for inadequate supervision and judgment, not the minimal experience they received during formal training.