KC-135 Tanker Q&A

[Guest kcip2010]

Also true. E to R and Block 30 to 40 is downing alot of units. We are about to embark on the Block 40 conversion the same week that we depart for Incirlik for 45 days. We are hanging in there for all of our AEFs during the conversion.

[Guest Slilock]

Originally posted by KCIP2010:

Also true. E to R and Block 30 to 40 is downing alot of units. We are about to embark on the Block 40 conversion the same week that we depart for Incirlik for 45 days. We are hanging in there for all of our AEFs during the conversion.

I heard the Block 50's are out now?

[Guest kcip2010]

There are enhancements to the basic Block 40. The newest version on the drawing board is Block 40.3 but it is not in the jets yet.

[Guest Slilock]

I was wondering why does the KC-135 have two -1's (Inflight and Reference)? Why not combine them (and take out the shit from models that aren't even flown anymore). I'm at the school house right now and can't get an answer from all the old SAC guys other than "that's the way it's always been."

[GBock]

Because as you'll soon find out, that's the answer for all the stupid things we do in king cobra tanker. Most SAC warriors I've come into contact with believe that if you don't vis-a-vis your TOLD on the little plastic card the wings will stop producing lift.

At some point you'll stop giving a shit. Welcome to the flying phallus.

Besides, paper T.O.'s are going the way of the dinosaur. Score 1 for technology.

[ 28. August 2006, 16:30: Message edited by: GBock ]

[Guest Slilock]

Yeah, I'm starting to find this out. We went over Boom malfunctions checklists today from a pamphlet printed off by the Flight Safety. I asked where in the -1 (either) or -3 the checklists where and got a, "Well, they aren't in either of them. They're in the pamphlet. They've never been in either of the T.O.'s"

So I guess technically I can **** up a boom and since there's no real "checklist" to trouble shoot a malfunction I'm still good.

:rolleyes:

[Guest newflyer]

I always assumed it was because the -1 was so freaking huge.

Add a sts if you want.

[Mambo]

Originally posted by GBock:

Besides, paper T.O.'s are going the way of the dinosaur. Score 1 for technology.

Yeah, unless you are on a plane with an FE, then he has to carry a paper copy of the Dash 1, the 1-1, the Vol 3, ect...

Putting pubs on a thumbdrive and not having a laptop on the plane...

[ACCBoomer]

From what I am reading you must be in initial boom school and for what it is worth go ahead and try to learn and love all the info that seems useless from the Flight Safety Dudes. We are flying a 50 year old jet that does some weird things at times and if every quirk and goofy malfunction you may have back in the pod were put in the -1 you would have a book over a 100000 pages! Those guys are only there to help and I have have seen more than one of those weird things happen at a crappy time.

All that being said, we are going paperless very, very soon in the -135 world. I just got my memory stick the other day.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Slilock:

I was wondering why does the KC-135 have two -1's (Inflight and Reference)? Why not combine them?[qb]

Have you ever seen them?! Chapter 1 alone is 1000 pages, with another 1000+ for Chapters 2-7, and probably 500+ for the performance manual. Don't think they'd all fit in one binder.

[qb](and take out the shit from models that aren't even flown anymore).

What airplane are you talking about?! All of the models listed in my KC-135 -1 are still flying. (R/T/E/D)

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by Slilock:

I was wondering why does the KC-135 have two -1's (Inflight and Reference)? Why not combine them (and take out the shit from models that aren't even flown anymore). I'm at the school house right now and can't get an answer from all the old SAC guys other than "that's the way it's always been."

Number one, I don't think they'd make a binder big enough to hold all of that. Number two, it'd be a ***** to find anything and you'd have to have so many tabs it'd look like an address book. Number three, I don't think it'd fit in the copilot's pubs compartment on the right side of the seat. Number four, the reference manual is used for all models of -135, which covers active duty, reserve and guard who are still using the E model. However, there are different inflight and performance manuals for the R/T and E/D.

You think that is bad. Is your unit flying GATM -135's (Block 40.x)? You'll have a whole new set of Reference and Inflight manuals to add to your collection. You may have Block 30's and 40's on your ramp like we do, so you'll have to carry both in your bag (in case you have to step to the spare and it's a different jet). I just carry the Inflights and Performance. Reference is not required. You'll also have an additional Pilot's Abbreviated Checklist and fanfold.

I do carry everything on flashdrive, except for the Performance manual, which to my knowledge does not exist in electronic form for the R-model. However, I don't believe electronic pubs are practical in this jet. It really is easier to just have the hardcopy next to you to pull out. No hassles with having to pull out a laptop and the associated computer problems that may prevent you from getting to the book. Then what do you do? The way we take care of our computer equipment, I wouldn't trust an AF issued laptop to work 100% of the time. We beat the dung out of everything we use. Our PFPS kits get abused enough as it is.

[ACCBoomer]

You almost forgot Block 40.2 & MPRS & ROBE all on one tail (now thats a ton of books) :)

[scawtiedog]

Originally posted by PilotKD:

You think that is bad. Is your unit flying GATM -135's (Block 40.x)? You'll have a whole new set of Reference and Inflight manuals to add to your collection. You may have Block 30's and 40's on your ramp like we do, so you'll have to carry both in your bag (in case you have to step to the spare and it's a different jet). I just carry the Inflights and Performance. Reference is not required. You'll also have an additional Pilot's Abbreviated Checklist and fanfold.

Luckily McConnell has gotten smart. No longer requires you to carry/maintain your own pubs. Squadrons have rolling pubs kits you check out before you step (has Block 30, 40, plus all AD's, etc.).

I do carry everything on flashdrive, except for the Performance manual, which to my knowledge does not exist in electronic form for the R-model. However, I don't believe electronic pubs are practical in this jet.

We're now getting issued 1GB flash drives to keep all our own pubs (for study, etc.) with an automatic update you just download. Pretty nice way to go for studying and table-top discussion. Agree though on the jet hard-copy is much easier/quicker.

[Guest Slilock]

Originally posted by PilotKD:

I just carry the Inflights and Performance. Reference is not required. You'll also have an additional Pilot's Abbreviated Checklist and fanfold.

I'm a Boom, I carry more than that (-3, -9, etc).

[Chuck17]

The entire 17 world has been doing this for the last 2 years. Its great. Going on the road or a local? Take a pubs kit. It is updated by Stan/Eval in the squadron so its up-to-date. I take a thumb drive with all my pubs and any I choose to carry, other than that, they are in the pubs kit.

Come on GF, get with the program!

Chuck

[scawtiedog]

Yep, Squadron Stan/Eval maintains the pubs kits, you just double check that it's not missing any recent updates when you check it out. OG Stan/Eval maintains the electronics pubs. You just click the little update button on the program and it downloads any updates from OGV. Now whenever a new pub comes out or a change, it's listed in the FCIF and they just mention in that same FCIF that a new electronic update is available.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by scawtiedog:

Luckily McConnell has gotten smart. No longer requires you to carry/maintain your own pubs. Squadrons have rolling pubs kits you check out before you step (has Block 30, 40, plus all AD's, etc.).

Not bad...but ya'll can step it up a notch further...pre-position all the pubs on the aircraft so you don't have to drag anything. That's how we roll in the ANG at least.

[ 29. August 2006, 18:39: Message edited by: Bergman ]

[JVBFLY]

Originally posted by Bergman:

...pre-position all the pubs on the aircraft so you don't have to drag anything. That's how we roll in the ANG at least.

But, but, then someone would have to go all the way out to the jet every WEEK to post a supplement or change!

[Guest Hoser]

Berg,

I did manage to see your reply to my last post before it was deleted. I agree with doing a landing demo once, maybe twice, having the IP fly it down the length of the runway while the PNF just sits there, and takes that mental snapshot of the landing attitude.

But I still can't agree with the walking the angry dragon (I can't remember the actual name) demo. I would assume that if guys are doing that, they then must be 100% proficient in all their no-flap, single engine, two engine (what ever number of engine approaches you guys practice), no spoiler, no slats, etc EP landings. If they are not, I personally think that the gas would be better spent practicing for something that may actually happen to them.

I am familiar with the dreaded Heavy Transition sortie. The closest thing would be during our Transition phase and we return with about 10K of gas to beat up the pattern, not for 2-3 hours, but traffic permitting, we can definetly get 6-9 touch and go's. Normals, No-flaps, Single Engine, Over-skulls, visual straight in, the whole 9 yards. Could I do 2 touch-n-go's on a 12k runway? Yes. Do I? No.

Cap-10

[Scooter14]

Originally posted by Hoser:

But I still can't agree with the walking the angry dragon (I can't remember the actual name) demo. I would assume that if guys are doing that, they then must be 100% proficient in all their no-flap, single engine, two engine (what ever number of engine approaches you guys practice), no spoiler, no slats, etc EP landings. If they are not, I personally think that the gas would be better spent practicing for something that may actually happen to them.

Two.

I'm definitely all for "ILS for Beers" or "see if you can put it down exactly 2690 feet down" or whatever. I do that after a long day in the pattern. The elephant walk (besides the horrific frat hazing ritual image it conjures up) is just not something I'm gonna try with those low slung pods and my fists of ham.

With my luck, my post flight walk around would look like I sandblasted the underside of #2 and #3.

For once I thought we were having a discussion that actually had some merit for educating people outside of the tanker community.

My point exactly. One of the threads I remember from way back actually taught me that C-17 and C-5 guys don't care what we squawk. The KC can "tag" any mode 3 and display it on the TCAS, and it's a technique we use to build SA when we have multiple targets. When our receiver shecks in, we typically ask for it. A lot of my squadron-mates used to then tell the receiver pilot our squawk. They'd just say OK, but it was wasted comm.

Now, if they do that, I say "Hey, I have a buddy who flies Fred/Barney, and they don't give a shit what our mode 3 is." "Really? Oh, well I guess I'll drop that from my radio call" is the response I get back.

Big deal, no. Gee-whiz knowledge? Sure.

There's probably a group of people out there that read about the French "Landing Attitude Demo" yesterday and never read our rebuttals and are now going through life thinking that a KC-135 does a landing attitude demo at 30 feet above the desert at 369 KIAS and when we're bored we like to bounce 49 year old airplanes down the runway for fun and profit.

Big deal, no. But the last big tanker discussion we had was the "Tanker WIC" and it's curriculum of dragging receivers through the WX and turning left. I believe that was even brought up in the Low Level thread by a C-130 guy. That's fine, it was funny and I enjoyed taking the hits, but when something that actually educates people about the tanker shows up, it gets killed.

Bullshit.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Hoser:

But I still can't agree with the walking the angry dragon (I can't remember the actual name) demo. I would assume that if guys are doing that, they then must be 100% proficient in all their no-flap, single engine, two engine (what ever number of engine approaches you guys practice), no spoiler, no slats, etc EP landings. If they are not, I personally think that the gas would be better spent practicing for something that may actually happen to them.

We only practice the dreaded 3 engine approach, go-around, or EFTOC (engine failure takeoff continued). We will also do some jammed stab demos, landing attitude, manual gear/flap lowering, and probably a few others I have missed.

The "elephant walk" (never heard it called that before...normally when I think "elephant walk" I'm thinking tanker LFE with 6-9 tankers taxiing at once) Anyway, it really isn't that big of a deal. Just set up for a normal landing attitude demo, and once you've got the 'flare picture' and it's stable, just pull some power on an outboard motor and wait 3-4 seconds for that main gear to touch down. Add the power back, then pull the opposite outboard thottle. On a 12,000' runway there is plenty of time to do this a few times. Nothing dangerous at all. In fact, I think it requires a good bit of skill...centerline control, keeping the jet flying (as opposed to both main settling on the runway), not climbing too high. There really is something to it, and I think an argument can be made for the proficiency you gain.

Having said that, it's not all that useful for demonstrating the landing attitude. I always get more out of doing something myself rather than watching an IP do it and talk me through it. But, rather than just watching the IP land once, you're getting the same "flare time" as 5-6 normal landings.

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Danke for the SA. I'm waiting for a question that stimulates the mind more than the prostate.... Don't think that'll happen any time soon.

Why do tankers do the shark whatever? Why don't tankers ever roll out on course? And the masses cry out for.....something. They're not exactly sure yet.

EDITED: Because I can

[ 07. December 2006, 22:53: Message edited by: Xtndr50boom ]

[Guest Boom]

More of a C-17 question but why do C-17's always say "stable ready" when they're in precontact. I've never had any other receiver tell me that.

[C17Driver]

It's become a "standard" call taught at the school house due to all the "collisions" that took place over the last couple of years. I think some use it to tell the other crew members (and more importantly, the cockpit voice recorder) that they are in fact stable (no closure) and ready (ready light on -- light on the AR annunciator panel that says the system is armed).

[ 08. December 2006, 00:12: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Toro]

Originally posted by Boom:

More of a C-17 question but why do C-17's always say "stable ready" when they're in precontact. I've never had any other receiver tell me that.

This is mandatory call dictated by your EMCON (Emission Condition) procedures. There are four stages; EMCON 4 is no emmisions to include comm, radio, IFF, or lighting. EMCON 1 is all systems on and verbal diarreah over the radio. We generally use EMCON 2 which requires the "Precontact ready" call and "Disconnect". EMCON 2 has a caveat that the precontact call can be omitted.

Here's two bits of advice I would pass to the tankers -

1 - Concerning calling entering and exiting turns; nice in the day, but not necessary - much better call at night or IMC since I don't have the luxury of a horizon.

2 - Don't try to help us with our intercept. Numerous times I've had a good intercept running and the tanker begins a turn for no apparent reason in the middle of the track. On more than one occasion I get something to the effect of "let me help you out...coming left"

Along those lines, my question for the tanker guys - How often (for RAP or other training purposes) do you need to conduct point parallel rejoins? We cringe when you ask us if we want to/tell us you need to conduct a point parallel.