Air Refueling

[Guest Dirt Beater]

What does "noses cold" mean? I heard it on that Brit's 'Heath website listening to some dudes AR'ing. Thanks

[Bergman]

You're a senior in college? You should spend more time partying, because you obviously have way too much free time ;)

Noses cold is a call that fighters make prior to coming up to the tanker, referring to forward firing armament and radars typically (i.e. safe/turned off).

From KC-135 T.O. 1-1C-1-3, "Except when security would be compromised, a verbal hot armament check will be accomplished between the tanker and receiver during the 15 minute prior to ARCT call."

[Guest Dirt Beater]

Cool, thanks Berg.

Nah, I'm only a junior...and partying is for losers, only REAL men spend an obscene amount of time on message boards every day. I'll admit it, I'm pretty much the world's biggest message board junkie (used to frequent SPN before it went to feces), but I'm a firm believer that knowledge is power, and there's no shortage of that around here.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Bergman:

From KC-135 T.O. 1-1C-1-3, "Except when security would be compromised, a verbal hot armament check will be accomplished between the tanker and receiver during the 15 minute prior to ARCT call."

Yeah, like I'm going to ARM SAFE and turn my radar off 15 minutes prior to rendezvousing with the tanker!

[Guest Pilot135]

Most tanker pilots are more worried about having the reciever hit them than shoot them down. After all, we are their ticket home. The boomer in the back however is worried about getting his little boys fried and becoming sterile from the radar.

[Riddller]

Hey! I am (or was) worried about it sitting up front too!! I know in the Marine Herk community, the ratio of girl kids to boy kids being born to senior aircrew was WAY in favor of girls. I've heard it said that it's probably due to the "side lobes" of radar energy from our own radar, nevermind getting zapped w/ 60,000 watts (or whatever) from some fast mover behind me! Also, I think that the radius is 35 ft. from the nose of our aircraft has to be clear of fuel before we turn it on, due to the ignition hazard. Granted, the IFR range for FWAR is more like 56-76 feet back from the pod, but I still wouldn't want to worry about a guy zapping my flying gas-can!

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Riddller:

I know in the Marine Herk community, the ratio of girl kids to boy kids being born to senior aircrew was WAY in favor of girls.

Puuuure urban legend.

I heard the same thing back when I was a nuke weapons maintenance officer -- that the neutron and gamma radiation did weird things to men and as a result most had female kids. Then I heard it again when I got to the F-15 -- that the side and back lobes off the radar (or maybe it was the frequent G forces) would do the same thing.

Well, I did both, and I had a boy. A friend of mine who also did nukes and subsequently flew the E-3 for a living also had a boy.

About 3 years ago a ERAU graduate student did a survey at Seymour Johnson trying to get hard (sts) numeric statistics to support the "more girl than boy children" claim. Out of several hundred fighter pilots surveyed there was *no conclusive* data either way.

So, in my book, until someone comes up with some actual proof other than "heard it through the grapevine", it's gonna remain a wives tale.

[ 03 March 2004, 20:05: Message edited by: Hacker ]

[Riddller]

Ok, I'll buy that, you're right, I don't have any hard evidence, I can just speak from personal experience. The aircrew I knew had kids that were girls 2-3 times more than boys, and I heard many other aircrew comment on the fact as well, so I guess I assumed I wasn't crazy, but I think it's definitely possible that the perception was the result of a self-propogating urban legend.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Bergman:

From KC-135 T.O. 1-1C-1-3, "Except when security would be compromised, a verbal hot armament check will be accomplished between the tanker and receiver during the 15 minute prior to ARCT call."

15 minutes prior? That's absolutely retarded - ATC won't even switch you to the tanker frequency until you at least have radar contact with them (but usually they require visual contact). During the day I would say most guys turn off their radar once they're within about 1/2 mile. At night (especially with 135s, since they hate turning on their lights) most guys I know leave the radar on until the pre-contact position.

[Beaver]

A No-Rad intercept at night from 100 miles. Yeah right.

[Guest KC10Boomer]

We all know the regs say one thing, but I don't remember any of my pilots actually doing a hot armament check in the 15 minute call. Normally it's around a mile or two, just before they give me A/R primary, or I'll get it before precontact.

I had a buddy refueling Elmendorf 15Cs with the new radar. He kept asking the FE to turn the heat down and when AC commented that his EHSI was going nuts it must've clicked what was going on. A quick "check nose cold" got a nice reply, "Now it is".

[ 06 March 2004, 18:49: Message edited by: KC10Boomer ]

[Bergman]

Hmm...looks like there is a difference between what the regs say and what happens "in the real world". I am shocked and outraged! haha Whatever gets the job done, so long as it doesn't roast my nuts or cause my jet to explode.

[Scooter14]

Chestnuts roooooasting on an RF beam....

6+ years sitting ten feet behind the 1950's vintage APN-59 radar, one boy and one boy on the way.

[Guest KC10Boomer]

The 15 minute nose cold call is more trouble than it's worth. I can't imagine them actually doing it, and that far out both tanker and receiver should be concentrating more on the rendevous than turning their radar off (counter-productive with fighters). Precontact or before is fine by me.

On sort of the same note, I've heard of tanker guys clearing individual receivers to the wings, eg, "1 and 2 is cleared to the right wing, 3 and 4 are cleared left". When fighters know which wing they're going to, and we're probably screwing up the order they normally go in. Too much chatter for too little payoff.

[Toro]

Originally posted by KC10Boomer:

On sort of the same note, I've heard of tanker guys clearing individual receivers to the wings, eg, "1 and 2 is cleared to the right wing, 3 and 4 are cleared left". When fighters know which wing they're going to, and we're probably screwing up the order they normally go in. Too much chatter for too little payoff.

Shack. Most flight leads, especially with a four-ship, will brief where they want the wingmen to go. It's also usually written in the standards. I'll always tell my #2 to go to the left, then I'll occassionally get to a tanker who tells him to go to the right, so now I've gotta garbage up the radios again and tell the tanker that he's going to the left.

[Guest Pilot135]

I try to have as much SA as possible on where my receivers are going after AR. I have the boom cycle them in whatever direction makes sense at the time. On the other hand, some ATC agencies (like Germany) require the fighters to report to them after AR on the left wimg of the tanker. It all depends on where you are in the world, and where the chicks need to go.

I also try to teach young guys to adjust their orbit to time the last guy off the boom to the appropriate end of the track (especially on opperational missions where it counts). There's no point in making the guy fly in the opposite direction of his CAP for 50 miles for no reason...

[Big Bear]

Puuuure urban legend.

I heard the same thing back when I was a nuke weapons maintenance officer -- that the neutron and gamma radiation did weird things to men and as a result most had female kids. Then I heard it again when I got to the F-15 -- that the side and back lobes off the radar (or maybe it was the frequent G forces) would do the same thing.

Well, I did both, and I had a boy. A friend of mine who also did nukes and subsequently flew the E-3 for a living also had a boy.

About 3 years ago a ERAU graduate student did a survey at Seymour Johnson trying to get hard (sts) numeric statistics to support the "more girl than boy children" claim. Out of several hundred fighter pilots surveyed there was *no conclusive* data either way.

So, in my book, until someone comes up with some actual proof other than "heard it through the grapevine", it's gonna remain a wives tale.

[ 03 March 2004, 20:05: Message edited by: Hacker ]

I second that that's just an old urban legend. I used to do backshop mx on the buff's strat radar. Those test sets are NOT leak free, and I'm certain I got exposed more than once, and I now have 2 boys.

[JarheadBoom]

Wow... a 6-year-old (almost to the day!) thread resurrection. Wonder if that's some kind of Baseops record...

[08Dawg]

Well, since it's alive...

I was told by a Buff EW that for a three year period mid-2000s, call it 2003-2006 give or take a few months, none of the crewdogs at Minot had sons.

[TacAirCoug]

Since we're going back in time...can anyone give me some advice on how to get through pilot training?

[Guest Crew Report]

Shack. Most flight leads, especially with a four-ship, will brief where they want the wingmen to go. It's also usually written in the standards. I'll always tell my #2 to go to the left, then I'll occassionally get to a tanker who tells him to go to the right, so now I've gotta garbage up the radios again and tell the tanker that he's going to the left.

Weird, the tanker directs the refueling, not you.

[bagasticks]

Weird, the tanker directs the refueling, not you.

when dealing with competent tanker dudes that take initiative, you are right. . .(before you flame, i'm an 11 yr tanker dude). many dudes have been poisoned by the altus kool-aid and operate in this little box. The station keeping procedures and terminology that have been implemented with the -56 are a joke straight from her majesty's finest. I've seen guys in the AOR that will not deviate from the anchor points in the box to drop dudes off closer to their working area, stay out of a cloud, etc. because "thats not what they teach at altus, or IAW the queen's guidance" these same guys wont deviate from a tech order AR speed to refuel a fat hawg or bone either.. micro-managing where dudes want to stack is not my concern, so long as they deconflict w/me and other flights and dont get me violated (sts), they can fly upside-down and backwards if they want.

[BlackKnight]

A No-Rad intercept at night from 100 miles. Yeah right.

Ummm... huh? Do it all the time, like two nights ago.

If there's a cloud, the tanker will fly into it. General rule.

Barney

Well, since it's alive...

I was told by a Buff EW that for a three year period mid-2000s, call it 2003-2006 give or take a few months, none of the crewdogs at Minot had sons.

Boys abound in the A-10 commmunity. I wonder why...

[ClearedHot]

Ummm... huh? Do it all the time...

"Two"

[Gas Man]

Shack. Most flight leads, especially with a four-ship, will brief where they want the wingmen to go. It's also usually written in the standards. I'll always tell my #2 to go to the left, then I'll occassionally get to a tanker who tells him to go to the right, so now I've gotta garbage up the radios again and tell the tanker that he's going to the left.

Before I get too spun up over Toro's comment, I will say I have been on here long enough to know Toro is actually a pretty smart guy. He is smart enough to know that if he is getting gas and there are no chicks in tow it doesn't matter where he goes, as long as his flight deconflicts with each other. That doesn't mean I agree with him disregarding what the tanker tells him. I have sent flights to the wrong wing before for several reasons. Usually it is usually because some dudes joined on the wrong wing before them and I am trying to deconflict. He is correct in briefing his guys to the left first though. I will give him that. That is procedure.

I was at a flag last year and almost had my receivers get in two separate mid airs because they weren't following directions. We gave away 120k to 16+ fighters and logged a 1.9. Busy sortie. We had dudes join on us even before the sally corridor wanting gas. One 4 ship joined on an F-22 at about 20' right and just below that was on our boom. Totally in the -22 blind spot. I will never know why in the hell they joined like that. They weren't talking to us, we couldn't talk to them, in fact it turns out they came to the wrong tanker and didn't have the right boom freq. AWAC sent them to the tanker 3k above us, but since they saw us first they figured the Wacker guys were wrong about the altitude. Couldn't possibly be there is more than one tanker in the same orbit. Then about 30 minutes later I had another 2 ship go right to left after I told them to join on the left and cycle through to the right. Then I cleared them off high and they decided to clear off us low and almost hit another flight coming up from below.

If any of you were at that flag you might remember my de-briefing. I was the tanker dude that said in mass debrief "since some of you aren't smart enough to read the fucking regs on AR I brought pictures. You need to follow the tanker's directions or bad shit happens." I also found out that dropping the F-bomb in mass debrief is not a good idea no matter how mad you are.

In the future follow the tanker's directions even if you think he is wrong.

I know, tanker drivers are a bunch of whiny bitches.