Air Refueling

[mudhen69]

I think the fact that there are more girls born in fighter squadrons has more to do with karma than gigawatts.

For my tanker brethern, here's some advice that will get you style points. Consider adding "reccomend" to your calls. For example, "Pornstar 1 cleared precontact, reccomend 2 to left wing." At that point, the 99.9% of flight leads will say in the inter-flight "2 cleared to the left wing" That way you get your way and the flight lead gets his ego fluffed a little by still being in charge of his formation. Technique only, not written in any T.O. but worth a shot.

[Gas Man]

I think the fact that there are more girls born in fighter squadrons has more to do with karma than gigawatts.

For my tanker brethern, here's some advice that will get you style points. Consider adding "reccomend" to your calls. For example, "Pornstar 1 cleared precontact, reccomend 2 to left wing." At that point, the 99.9% of flight leads will say in the inter-flight "2 cleared to the left wing" That way you get your way and the flight lead gets his ego fluffed a little by still being in charge of his formation. Technique only, not written in any T.O. but worth a shot.

So it should go something like "Ego 11, cleared pre-contact, recommend if 12 wants gas tonight he goes to the left wing."

Something like that?

Man, I am making all sorts of friends tonight.

[mudhen69]

So it should go something like "Ego 11, cleared pre-contact, recommend if 12 wants gas tonight he goes to the left wing."

Something like that?

Man, I am making all sorts of friends tonight.

Only if you want to hear "Fox-2" in return.

(Sarcasm intended)

[Hacker]

In the future follow the tanker's directions even if you think he is wrong.

Errrr, no.

[Guest Crew Report]

Errrr, no.

Then you don't get gas.

[Vetter]

Then you don't get gas.

Have you ever denied a receiver gas?

[Gas Man]

Have you ever denied a receiver gas?

Yep. I have quite a few times.

I think a bigger deal is being made about this whole thing than needs to be made. First off, 95% of the time guys come in and do exactly like they are supposed to do. They jump on the boom with no problems and we shoot the shit over interplane, and then they are on their way.

When there are problems, I just make the receiver do what I ask until they get it right. If not, back to pre-contact. Sometimes they get so frustrated that they decide gas isn't that important and leave.

There has only been one time that I have jumped on the radio and strait up denied gas. We had a Greek F-16 Block 62 with the conformal fuel tanks that was very unstable in pre-contact. My boom told him to slow his rate of closure because she was a newer boom and felt uncomfortable. He ignored her several times and she kept saying "back to pre-contact". She told me he wouldn't go back to pre-contact, he was just sitting there. He then told her, "I am fine, just give me my gas" I jumped on the radio and told him he was cleared off. He hung on my wing for a bit while the rest of his flight got their gas thinking I would give him gas. Then without being cleared he came back to pre-contact. I told the boom operator to stow the boom. He still hung back there for 5 minutes while we coordinated with ATC for our RTB clearance. When we told him we were RTB and he wasn't getting gas he saluted with one finger and left. We followed up with a phone call to his Squadron when we landed. Our Detco was an ENJPT IP and many moons ago had trained the Squaron CC. We were assured he would be trained properly on AR procedures when he got back to the base. The rest of the deployment the Greek F-16 guys were great to re-fuel and very polite on the radio.

It seems like this is turning into a pissing contest about who is in charge of AR. Let me just make it clear. The tanker is in charge. If you don't do what you are told, you will look pretty stupid in debrief explaining why you didn't get your gas.

Most of the time I ask the fighters what they would like and am very accommodating. That is what I'm there for. When I have multiple sets of receivers and start getting busy that is when I get directive.

[JarheadBoom]

For anyone still harboring doubts as to who runs this particular show, crack open/double-click your ATP-56(B) Part 2, and read Chapter 1, specifically paragraphs 105 through 108.

The tanker runs the refueling.

[Guest Alarm Red]

For anyone still harboring doubts as to who runs this particular show, crack open/double-click your ATP-56(B) Part 2, and read Chapter 1, specifically paragraphs 105 through 108.

The tanker runs the refueling.

I've found the tanker "runs the refueling", at least the rejoin portion of it, a lot more expeditiously, if your flight turns off Mode 3/C once cleared to join. That way you can join without the 'helpful' tanker turn into you at 6-9NM every single damn time.

[bagasticks]

my fav is when bone drivers state: "maintain heading and we'll do a fighter turn to rejoin" only to roll out 69 miles behind, "any chance you can start a left turn?"

[BQZip01]

I also found out that dropping the F-bomb in mass debrief is not a good idea no matter how mad you are.

<sigh> Crap.

Now I have to go in early tomorrow and redo my powerpoint presentation...

[BQZip01]

Only if you want to hear "Fox-2" in return.

(Sarcasm intended)

At that range? Fox-4 would be FAR more entertaining...

[Guest Crew Report]

Have you ever denied a receiver gas?

Actually yeah, a few times.

I stowed the boom when I told him to do something and he didn't, he got pissy, he finally did what I told him to do, and he got his gas (still being pissed). Went to tanker ops afterward and was shown in the book where I was right and he was wrong. I'm not going to be Q3'd or second guessed by my peers and my leadership because some fighter dude wants to do stuff his/her way.

Gas Man I scoff. You've denied receivers gas "quite a few times" ? Ok so you refused gas to one Greek F-16 asshole. Copy. This entire discussion is comical. Every tanker rejoin I've been involved in usually goes something like this, "Topcat 81, Cylon 11, checking in 29.92 set, noses cold, request Cylon 1 to pre-contact, 2,3,4 to the left wing" Topcat: "Cylon 11 cleared as requested" Chicks in tow, etc. we usually end up in 2 nm trail; multiple tankers? We get cleared to different tankers.

Left to right is the standard flow. In the absence of other guidance always clear off high from the tanker. Pay attention in the mass brief about tanker formations, cells, altitudes, # of tankers, and ingress and egress altitudes. I'm sorry you had such a demanding sortie; 16 + receivers and a whole 120k in a 1.9 over the NTTR...yikes! It must have been difficult orbiting at FL260 and then landing. Yelling ###### in a mass debrief is embarrassing.

Where does all of your anger come from? Most of the tanker guys I've flown with have been top notch minus the occasional one equipped with the IMC seeking radar....

Tanker Ops always briefs left to right tanker in the countless Red Flags I've participated in (since it's in ATP-56B). And what will always happen is you'll have a four ship of Eagles or Vipers come up and I'll hear,

"Baja25 I'm going to send 2 and 4 to the right wing and three to the boom and I'll be on the left wing. Only 2 and three are getting gas."

"Negative, please all rejoin observation left wing and send who you want to refuel first to the boom."

"STATE REASON."

"Because those are the standard flow procedures we're using."

Then they don't want to pass tail numbers due to "OPSEC" issues of the fake Red Flag war. However, Strike Eagles/Vipers have no problem passing tail numbers over the radio in the AOR to the tanker. The Eagle guys and some Raptor dudes are the ones who don't. We have to log the fuel in a AMC system called AMCART when we land. That's why tankers always ask for tail numbers.

my fav is when bone drivers state: "maintain heading and we'll do a fighter turn to rejoin" only to roll out 69 miles behind, "any chance you can start a left turn?"

Don't forget Wizard doing that also. Then after it takes 69 minutes to do the rejoin it takes another 69 minutes for them to get their 75K of gas due to them sucking.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Crew Report

[pawnman]

15 minutes prior? That's absolutely retarded - ATC won't even switch you to the tanker frequency until you at least have radar contact with them (but usually they require visual contact). During the day I would say most guys turn off their radar once they're within about 1/2 mile. At night (especially with 135s, since they hate turning on their lights) most guys I know leave the radar on until the pre-contact position.

That alll checks. We'll make a call to the tanker 15 min prior, with the weapons and expendables safed up, radar on until about a mile or so (or whenever the pilots up front are ready to take the rejoin from the WSOs). But we will tell that to the tanker..."Switches safed, nose hot for the rejoin".

[pawnman]

my fav is when bone drivers state: "maintain heading and we'll do a fighter turn to rejoin" only to roll out 69 miles behind, "any chance you can start a left turn?"

My favorite is when we call for that left turn, and the tanker turns right...towards the Pakistan border.

[Gas Man]

Gas Man I scoff. You've denied receivers gas "quite a few times" ? Ok so you refused gas to one Greek F-16 asshole. Copy. This entire discussion is comical. Every tanker rejoin I've been involved in usually goes something like this, "Topcat 81, Cylon 11, checking in 29.92 set, noses cold, request Cylon 1 to pre-contact, 2,3,4 to the left wing" Topcat: "Cylon 11 cleared as requested" Chicks in tow, etc. we usually end up in 2 nm trail; multiple tankers? We get cleared to different tankers.

Left to right is the standard flow. In the absence of other guidance always clear off high from the tanker. Pay attention in the mass brief about tanker formations, cells, altitudes, # of tankers, and ingress and egress altitudes. I'm sorry you had such a demanding sortie; 16 + receivers and a whole 120k in a 1.9 over the NTTR...yikes! It must have been difficult orbiting at FL260 and then landing. Yelling fuck in a mass debrief is embarrassing.

Where does all of your anger come from? Most of the tanker guys I've flown with have been top notch minus the occasional one equipped with the IMC seeking radar....

I guess I should have been more precise with my wording. I have only jumped on the radio one time. We had a new boom that wasn't being as directive as she should have been. All of the other times the boom operator has no problem running the show. On my jet what the boom says is gospel. If the Boom tells me the receiver sucks and isn't following my directions I'm going to send him home, I respond with "Roger". That has happened several times.

Beerman you obviously know what the rules are and what you described above concerning the rejoin is exactly what happens 95% of the time.

What is "embarrassing", is not knowing/disregarding procedures. In that one Red flag sortie, we had two near mid airs and pretty much all of the of the other flights came in wrong too. 2 to the left wing, 2 to the right... All four to the right wing, ect.

Yea I was pissed. My anger comes from dudes not following procedures and putting other people's lives in danger.

[skinny]

...One of my biggest pet peeves.

Really? Really boom? You want to know what my tail number is? ...FAIL.

Not all fighters have the tail # written in three places on the nose, but for fvck's sake, how hard is your job? Don't you guys have a book for this shit?

Dude slow down.

What you have to realize is any records we do have of what tail is stationed where doesn't update at the same rate of PDM inputs/outputs and jet swaps with other units. It's a little easier at a deployed location as long as we keep up with AEF swap-outs and who is deployed where with what jets.

EMCON allowing, I would rather verbally ask you what your number is so my co can copy it down as opposed to strain my neck to try and see what those 2 inch digits say while I've got 20-30 degrees flaps trying not to fall out of the sky to keep you in contact (A-10 specific), so you get your gas, so the guys on the ground get their CAS. Oh by the way, the last three digits don't cut it, we need the FULL tail number, YY-XXXX. Especially since the boom blocks any view of the numbers aft of the receptacle. Don't even get me started on night AR and reading a black number on a gray jet.

We try pretty damn hard not to gum up the radios, like having the co look out the window at your stab for the number and tail flash if it's light enough out. I know, genius right? Fact is, we HAVE to have your tail number. It's not something we ask for to make you flail looking for it (however entertaining that may be). It all comes down to the shoe accountant at the wing that has to make sure the bill is sent to the right place for the right jet. All a unit has to do is say, "We don't have that tail number here, we're not paying." That money then comes out of the tanker unit's funding. We're here to give you the fuel, not pay for it.

Here's a thought, pass them at check-in, you know we're gonna ask for it, why not be ready for it? (again EMCON allowing) If not, try boom interphone (I know I know, the thing is about as reliable as the AF uniform policy), but it's worth a shot.

"Hawg 01, copy you're switches safe....confirm nose cold?" "...Yup, been cold for 32 years now."

"Hawg 01, is FL260 gonna work for you guys today?" "...Uhh, No, the A-10 isn't capable of AR that high...let's try 18 or 19."

"Ohh, really? ...Uhh...standby, we need to coordinate with center for the airspace."

Shack on the above. I've seen it and heard of it happening and all I could do was hang my head in shame for tanker clowns everywhere. Comes down to a lack of SA on the tanker's part and a lack of ATP-56 knowledge of receiver ops limits.

Edited March 11, 2010 by skinny

[tac airlifter]

Tanker Ops always briefs left to right tanker in the countless Red Flags I've participated in (since it's in ATP-56B). And what will always happen is you'll have a four ship of Eagles or Vipers come up and I'll hear,

"Baja25 I'm going to send 2 and 4 to the right wing and three to the boom and I'll be on the left wing. Only 2 and three are getting gas."

"Negative, please all rejoin observation left wing and send who you want to refuel first to the boom."

"STATE REASON."

"Because those are the standard flow procedures we're using."

I'm not asking to be dickish, so don't take it that way. In my job we also support customers and although standardized procedures exist, different users have different preferences. I always flex to the user regardless of what the reg says; in fact our "flex to your demands" approach has made us very popular and useful. So with my experience, I'm curious why you'd tell the customers how it's going to be instead of the other way around? I know there are times when you have to tell the user "no" for whatever good reason, but if they want something and your only reason not to acquiesce is because you are using a standard flow and you don't want to modify.... bro, that seems like exerting aurthority solely to exert authority and not helpful to the dudes in the fight.

[Karl Hungus]

My favorite is when we call for that left turn, and the tanker turns right...towards the Pakistan border.

There's probably a reason for that- a left turn would take the flight out of the anchor and towards the jet route along its left border, thus putting us in prime location for a mid-air. We will happily leave the anchor to get you closer to your next activity provided it makes sense and like you said, isn't going to take us into Pakistan or into a hazardous situation. Other times we have to worry about our next activity as well...dragging you one direction will take us below bingo for our next activity the other direction, etc. But it's not a conscious effort to screw you... unless you're getting gas from a -135, then all bets are off.

[Vertigo]

Topcat: "Cylon 11 cleared as requested"

So you're the one requesting. They're the ones doing the approving or disapproving of the request. In other words they're running the refueling.

[Alpharatz]

It's been a while but I can't ever remember any of this airborne bickering and snorting between tankers and receivers. Sometimes they just showed up...no one said a word and off they went; side lights aglow...Unless you count the Egyptian F-16's rolling in from who knows where jabbering loudly in Hindoo or some such. But If they were complaining I couldn't understand the lingo anyway. So, what's up guys?

Annex A. My pal did have a missile cook off thru the the formation at Red Flag

Annex B. Probably get more ionizing radiation from being at high altitude than a

radar unless you ask an E-3 to heat your flight snack

Annex C. you can do anything to an A-10 and they can't catch you.

[Guest]

That's absolutely retarded - ATC won't even switch you to the tanker frequency until you at least have radar contact with them (but usually they require visual contact).

That must be new. They always switched me and I don't recall ever having radar contact.

[ClearedHot]

That must be new. They always switched me and I don't recall ever having radar contact.

"Two"

[Guest]

A No-Rad intercept at night from 100 miles. Yeah right.

And no lights and in the wx. Standard ops in many scenarios. Not easy or fun but standard. More than once I asked the tanker to either turn on a light or get out of the wx...to no avail. NVGs, DME and UHF-ADF...giddyup.

Weird, the tanker directs the refueling, not you.

That's what you think.

Here's the right answer 99% of the time: Put the boom down if you're ready for the rcvrs and let the fighters quickflow in the order they see fit and you'll see the greatest asset utilization with the least comm.

Yep. I have quite a few times.

In combat? Bullshit.

[Guest]

What is "embarrassing", is not knowing/disregarding procedures. In that one Red flag sortie, we had two near mid airs and pretty much all of the of the other flights came in wrong too. 2 to the left wing, 2 to the right... All four to the right wing, ect.

Yea I was pissed. My anger comes from dudes not following procedures and putting other people's lives in danger.

Venture about 100nm west and you'll see what you consider a "near mid air" doesn't even qualify for a TR stop.