Air Refueling

[JarheadBoom]

I like everything except the last part. Not sure why it should matter to you about the direction of flow. It matters because ATP-56B, Part 2, Chapter 1, paragraph 108 e (2), directs that the flow is left-to-right. Like it or not (and no one I've spoken to from "the old days" likes it...), the ATP-56B is the guiding document for aerial refueling. We can't just modify the rules when we (or receivers) feel like it, unless there's a damn good reason for it:

You can't clear the next 4-ship to the left wing while the last guy in the previous 4-ship is on the boom with three jets on the right wing anyway. Why can't I? If I have multiple flights of receivers coming to me, where else am I going to put them? Can't put them in trail; there's a guy on the boom. Can't put them on the right wing; that's the rejoin area, and the flight already there will be departing soon. Answer - put them on the left wing (this is also ATP-56B procedure). Now having said that... if it's CAVU, no one said you have to be T-Bird close. You can step up a few feet, you can push out a couple hundred feet, whatever... just be on the left side of the tanker.

What's worse is that there is any requirement to say the word quickflow at all. Two jets go to the wing and two jets go to the boom the flight manages the quickflow across the boom from there, you just give them gas and they leave. Easier, quieter and faster for everyone. There are EMCONs where the word is required for coordination, and others where it is not. That's as far as I'll go on that issue.

I remember when, for accounting purposes only, we had to start passing tail numbers to the tankers. Aside from my disdain for ever having to talk to the tanker when there were emcon procedures that allowed for no comm...I admit, I never knew what tail number I was in (other than the last 3) or what year my jet was made. I didn't give a shit. Serious question: Is there not a placard on the instrument panel that has the 6-digit tail number of the aircraft on it?

This is a comptroller issue and we could improve this process. It seems like this is something that could be worked out through 1COs at the respective ops desks and leave the pilots and boom operators out of it. That said, I really still don't understand why anyone would need tail number level of detail. Just charge the respective wing and call it good. Believe me, we wish it were that easy too. The WRDCOs are not interested in doing that, however, because then they'd be out of a job.

We should be shitting on the comptrollers, not each other.

Beer light is on. Happy Friday.

Cheers to the boys downrange, whatever you're flying.

Hell yes. I'd drink to that, if I weren't sitting Bravo...

For those of you who are regular tanker customers, understand that we're not telling you where to go, or asking you for information that you think is unimportant, just for shits and grins.

- We need you to go where we're telling you, because it's required by our procedures.

- We need your tailnumber, because your aircraft gets "billed" for the fuel, not just your wing.

Hopefully, everyone has learned something, and we can quit throwing stones at each other.

edit for bad info

Edited March 24, 2010 by JarheadBoom

[BQZip01]

Hopefully, everyone has learned something, and we can quit throwing stones at each other.

On BaseOps? Not likely...

:-)

[Mickey]

For those of you who are regular tanker customers, understand that we're not telling you where to go, or asking you for information that you think is unimportant, just for shits and grins.

- We need you to go where we're telling you, because it's required by our procedures.

- We need your tailnumber, because your aircraft gets "billed" for the fuel, not just your wing.

Hopefully, everyone has learned something, and we can quit throwing stones at each other.

I think Rainman's point is that if procedures are stupid we have a responsibility to correct them. Sure passing the tail number is the right thing to do b/c the aircraft gets billed for fuel but is the aircraft getting billed the right answer? Something as simple as a comptroller's decision to bill the aircraft versus the wing means guys now have to talk on the radio for no tactical reason. The billing guy probably never even thought about the tactical implications of this policy.

[BFM this]

Jarheadboom: 96-0202. And I wasn't even there...

CrewReport: two posts earlier, based on discussion in this thread, the number is playing Waldo in the picture you provided as well. C'mon, you can do it...

For those that have been trumpeting on the 18yo just out of training = IB FAIL. But if you're satisfied with that...

For those that ask why this is important to us, 2 reasons:

1) most of my trips to the boom were just a welcome change of scenery during my last depolyment. A chance to stow the pod and fill a piddle pack. Ocaisionally though, I didn't have you up hot mic b/c I was working three radios and plugging grids while you were looking for the next cloud. Ever wondered why you heard my voice talking to Wizard while plugged?

2) you've got your 18yo baby boom, I've got my just out of MQT wm. I'm trying to hammer radio discipline into him while you want to fill out a travel voucher over the radio. This is an important skill that may save someone's life someday (read turning a TIC into a controlled bad-guy killing environment post above).

Before the flames, I'd like to recognize the crews that get it:

To the pilot who unexpectedly rolled out one afternoon while I was on the boom. "Understand you wanted to turn back uptrack?" "Yeah, but the sun is in another 20 degrees, so we're rolling out till you're complete" I nearly cried.

To the pilot who figured out how to do a 200fpm tobbagin when that's all that I needed and 300fpm would've put us in the clouds. To those who insist I disco before you'll start a tb:

To all those who give TCAS SA based on bearing instead of "I show you at my 10 o'clock"

And my all time favorite: thank you to the booms who refrain from starting a metronome with the boom just after I start forward to contact. WTF is that, anyway? You understand I'm flying vis-refs, right?

[Techsan]

This is officially the most retarded thread currently on BaseOps.

Totally agree. My head hurts from reading this.

I don't give a flying fuck what order you come in or how you flow. Just don't hit me, each other, or someone else. I also don't mind having the receiver give me a recommendation on which way to turn, how fast to fly, etc. The quicker we get together and you get your gas, the quicker I can get back to eating my hot wings (fresh out the oven), and the quicker I am to getting the RTB call from Wizard.

[LJ Driver]

Wow, interesting discussion about gripes between tanker/receiver.

On a more serious and less thread-war centric note, a question for the tanker guys:

What are your druthers with -130 receivers? Specifics would be great, no need to be polite (I know you already knew this). Anything that we can do better, minus more thrust or afterburner/JATO? Anything you don't understand about why we do/ask for what we do/ask for?

We almost never debrief with tankers usually because we're never in the same place and there are other things to cover but I'd like to know what you guys think and would like from us.

[Swizzle]

Anyone heard rumors of slick C-130J's becoming in-flight refuelable?

[Gas Man]

Wow, interesting discussion about gripes between tanker/receiver.

On a more serious and less thread-war centric note, a question for the tanker guys:

What are your druthers with -130 receivers? Specifics would be great, no need to be polite (I know you already knew this). Anything that we can do better, minus more thrust or afterburner/JATO? Anything you don't understand about why we do/ask for what we do/ask for?

We almost never debrief with tankers usually because we're never in the same place and there are other things to cover but I'd like to know what you guys think and would like from us.

We understand your thrust problems. Especially the AC-130 guys. We do all we can to get to a more manageable speed for you guys. I usually try to keep it between 190-195 for you guys. It seems to work the best. Just like with all receivers, we do what ever we can to accommodate. Keep up the good work. I've been in the back plenty of times and you guys look like you are working it back there. The only guys that look like they are working harder to stay on the boom are the Buff guys.

[Guest Crew Report]

Wow, interesting discussion about gripes between tanker/receiver.

On a more serious and less thread-war centric note, a question for the tanker guys:

What are your druthers with -130 receivers? Specifics would be great, no need to be polite (I know you already knew this). Anything that we can do better, minus more thrust or afterburner/JATO? Anything you don't understand about why we do/ask for what we do/ask for?

We almost never debrief with tankers usually because we're never in the same place and there are other things to cover but I'd like to know what you guys think and would like from us.

Nothing really. I usually refuel EC's and an occasional AC and never had any issues.

Anyone heard rumors of slick C-130J's becoming in-flight refuelable?

No, that would be pointless due to their mission.

[ClearedHot]

We understand your thrust problems. Especially the AC-130 guys. We do all we can to get to a more manageable speed for you guys. I usually try to keep it between 190-195 for you guys.

NOT always the best solution and sometimes that actually makes it WORSE.

Depending on KC-135 versus KC-10, flying slower will increase your angle of attack and thus your bow wave, especially if you are heavy and have the flaps down.

Seen it several times on drags to Korea, the KC-10 thought he was helping and younger receivers might think it is better to go slower, but from my experience behind the KC-10 on a long pacific crossing, increasing to 195-200 made a HUGE difference. Remember, Spending that much time on the boom and taking that much gas, our CG is going to shift aft, and I would assume yours is moving forward.

The other key is to PLAN on a toboggan with a AC that is going to take a lot of gas. We usually don't ask until we really need it and at that point we don;t have time to wait for coordination.

[Snirifle]

Wow reading this thread made me a much better tanker pilot.

And by much better I mean I am pretty sure my IQ just dropped about 10 pts. Good thing it wont impact my flying ability since I'll just be in back cooking some frozen pizza and drinking some Yoohoo while an A-10 is whining like a little girl on the boom to slow down some more, lol.

J/K I took no offense to this post whatsoever since I know you guys were all talking about 135 pilots...

(Let the flames commence...)

[Buddy Spike]

Shack. All of the above. Times have changed. Back in the Cold War, there was another major superpower with a large and comparable Air Force for fighter guys to fight. Not there isn't. .

You need to proceed directly to your nearest vault and get smart on the current threats out there.

[Gas Man]

NOT always the best solution and sometimes that actually makes it WORSE.

Depending on KC-135 versus KC-10, flying slower will increase your angle of attack and thus your bow wave, especially if you are heavy and have the flaps down.

Seen it several times on drags to Korea, the KC-10 thought he was helping and younger receivers might think it is better to go slower, but from my experience behind the KC-10 on a long pacific crossing, increasing to 195-200 made a HUGE difference. Remember, Spending that much time on the boom and taking that much gas, our CG is going to shift aft, and I would assume yours is moving forward.

The other key is to PLAN on a toboggan with a AC that is going to take a lot of gas. We usually don't ask until we really need it and at that point we don;t have time to wait for coordination.

Good to know. 95% of the times I have refueled C-130s were on BE's we do to HRT. They aren't taking much if any gas. We always coordinate on what speed they want. 190-200 is usually what they ask for.

[Guest]

You can't clear the next 4-ship to the left wing while the last guy in the previous 4-ship is on the boom with three jets on the right wing anyway. Why can't I? If I have multiple flights of receivers coming to me, where else am I going to put them? Can't put them in trail; there's a guy on the boom. Can't put them on the right wing; that's the rejoin area, and the flight already there will be departing soon. Answer - put them on the left wing (this is also ATP-56B procedure). Now having said that... if it's CAVU, no one said you have to be T-Bird close. You can step up a few feet, you can push out a couple hundred feet, whatever... just be on the left side of the tanker.

I told you the reason. Here it is again, clear your mind and prepare to copy...There is no lost wingman procedure for #5.

Don't even start w/CAVU. All the rcvrs on this board aren't talking about you guys flying into the wx because it never happens. They are talking about it because it happens too frequently and it makes everything about doing their job much more difficult. Not impossible but unecessarily difficult.

I've seen guys barrel roll the tanker more than once at night just from the spatial D and it was perfectly clear...just dark. Every single time it screws up the rest of the flight because they are trying to process the visual signals and it just doesn't make sense in their brains when they see another jet do that. Let me just say, it's not good.

It's better if you make the refueling simple and the flight lead is better at making it simple than you are. The faster they get the gas the less chance for you to have to coordinate anything at all because they'll be gone long before the next guys show up.

Flexibility...ever heard of it? Yes, leave them in trail, stacked if required. You think you have a lot going on with multiple flights of rcvrs coming to you for gas? Take some stress off yourself and let the rcvrs manage the rejoin. If it's too much for you say it and we'll get someone else in there that can handle it. The rcvrs have way more skin in the game than you do. Believe me, they want the refueling to go quickly and to get away from you as fast as they can.

BTW, are you seriously giving formation flying lessons here? Check yourself.

What's worse is that there is any requirement to say the word quickflow at all. Two jets go to the wing and two jets go to the boom the flight manages the quickflow across the boom from there, you just give them gas and they leave. Easier, quieter and faster for everyone. There are EMCONs where the word is required for coordination, and others where it is not. That's as far as I'll go on that issue.

Really? Oh.

I remember when, for accounting purposes only, we had to start passing tail numbers to the tankers. Aside from my disdain for ever having to talk to the tanker when there were emcon procedures that allowed for no comm...I admit, I never knew what tail number I was in (other than the last 3) or what year my jet was made. I didn't give a shit. Serious question: Is there not a placard on the instrument panel that has the 6-digit tail number of the aircraft on it?

Nope.

For those of you who are regular tanker customers, understand that we're not telling you where to go, or asking you for information that you think is unimportant, just for shits and grins.

No one is coming to you to get gas for shits and grins either.

- We need your tailnumber, because your aircraft gets "billed" for the fuel, not just your wing.

We know. I'm saying that is stupid. That process needs improvement.

Hopefully, everyone has learned something, and we can quit throwing stones at each other.

I have learned that you are a reg Nazi and a drone.

Craniums up, the USAF (and the nation) expects you to participate in continuous process improvement. That means you are supposed to observe the practicle application of the process as defined by the reg and then submit changes that will improve the process. That is part of your job. Do it.

[Dead Last]

Good to know. 95% of the times I have refueled C-130s were on BE's we do to HRT. They aren't taking much if any gas. We always coordinate on what speed they want. 190-200 is usually what they ask for.

EC/ACs arent the only 130's that need the toboggan, MC's definitely need it too.

In a recent contingency I fell off the boom at max power, I requested the toboggan and had pre-briefed it with the tanker crew enroute to the track so I thought they would go right into it. When I asked for it the said stand by for coordination, un-fvckin believable! I was slightly annoyed when we had to wait another few minutes for the coordination with atc and then they started the decent without saying anything.

I could complain more but I was just happy to have gotten the gas and not needed to divert for gas.

cheers

[Guest]

For those that ask why this is important to us, 2 reasons:

1) most of my trips to the boom were just a welcome change of scenery during my last depolyment. A chance to stow the pod and fill a piddle pack. Ocaisionally though, I didn't have you up hot mic b/c I was working three radios and plugging grids while you were looking for the next cloud. Ever wondered why you heard my voice talking to Wizard while plugged?

2) you've got your 18yo baby boom, I've got my just out of MQT wm. I'm trying to hammer radio discipline into him while you want to fill out a travel voucher over the radio. This is an important skill that may save someone's life someday (read turning a TIC into a controlled bad-guy killing environment post above).

Shack.

Before the flames, I'd like to recognize the crews that get it:

To the pilot who unexpectedly rolled out one afternoon while I was on the boom. "Understand you wanted to turn back uptrack?" "Yeah, but the sun is in another 20 degrees, so we're rolling out till you're complete" I nearly cried.

To the pilot who figured out how to do a 200fpm tobbagin when that's all that I needed and 300fpm would've put us in the clouds. To those who insist I disco before you'll start a tb:

To all those who give TCAS SA based on bearing instead of "I show you at my 10 o'clock"

And my all time favorite: thank you to the booms who refrain from starting a metronome with the boom just after I start forward to contact. WTF is that, anyway? You understand I'm flying vis-refs, right?

LMFAO. Thanks.

[Prozac]

My recommendation for tanker crews: Check in goes something like this - Viper flight-"Gasser 22, Viper 11, 240, 29.92" Gasser-"Gasser 22, 250, 29.92, confirm noses cold, switches safe, cleared to rejoin your discression, pass your tails when able..." 99.9999% of the time Viper flight passes their tails, gets their gas, and everybody is happy with a minimum of radio garbaging. If he wants to clear off low and right and there's a cyclops in the vicinity, tell him where the traffic is. He'll do what he needs to do. Avoid clouds, turbulence, and icing. Drag guys toward their airspace or at least drop them off in the appropriate part of the track. Know where the sun is. Be polite and patient, but make it happen. Someone here said earlier that if you aren't dropping the bombs, you are the support. Shack. Even the Raptor and Eagle guys know this. Tanker guys do too, but some will always need reminding. End result: your gas = hot metal in pink bodies. Everything else is secondary. There will be times the reciever goes to the wrong tanker, gets lost, wants more gas than you have, or is generally an asshole and makes your life diffucult. Tactical controllers are also particularly good at this. Deal with it. Someone who sleeps in the mud is counting on it.

Prozac out.

[Guest Crew Report]

EC/ACs arent the only 130's that need the toboggan, MC's definitely need it too.

In a recent contingency I fell off the boom at max power, I requested the toboggan and had pre-briefed it with the tanker crew enroute to the track so I thought they would go right into it. When I asked for it the said stand by for coordination, un-fvckin believable! I was slightly annoyed when we had to wait another few minutes for the coordination with atc and then they started the decent without saying anything.

I could complain more but I was just happy to have gotten the gas and not needed to divert for gas.

cheers

We can't lower our flaps above 20,000ft (-135's). If the tanker is above that, then yes, we're going to have to coordinate a lower altitude block to go lower. And realize you may have prebriefed a toboggan, however we don't decided nor control what altitude block the controlling agency gives us. We can request whatever, but if they don't give us a lower altitude block for whatever reason and we can't lower our flaps/toboggan, then sorry.

My recommendation for tanker crews: Check in goes something like this - Viper flight-"Gasser 22, Viper 11, 240, 29.92" Gasser-"Gasser 22, 250, 29.92, confirm noses cold, switches safe, cleared to rejoin your discression, pass your tails when able..." 99.9999% of the time Viper flight passes their tails, gets their gas, and everybody is happy with a minimum of radio garbaging. If he wants to clear off low and right and there's a cyclops in the vicinity, tell him where the traffic is. He'll do what he needs to do. Avoid clouds, turbulence, and icing. Drag guys toward their airspace or at least drop them off in the appropriate part of the track. Know where the sun is. Be polite and patient, but make it happen. Someone here said earlier that if you aren't dropping the bombs, you are the support. Shack. Even the Raptor and Eagle guys know this. Tanker guys do too, but some will always need reminding. End result: your gas = hot metal in pink bodies. Everything else is secondary. There will be times the reciever goes to the wrong tanker, gets lost, wants more gas than you have, or is generally an asshole and makes your life diffucult. Tactical controllers are also particularly good at this. Deal with it. Someone who sleeps in the mud is counting on it.

Prozac out.

That's how 99% of the refueling happen in the AOR that I've been part of.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Crew Report

[pawnman]

Pardon my ignorance in the fighter side of things...but if you are that worried about passing tail numbers over the radios, why don't you just do it on boom interphone? I know we've had many, many conversations in our jet about not garbaging the radios and passing the tail numbers once you're getting gas.

[ClearedHot]

We can't lower our flaps above 20,000ft (-135's). If the tanker is above that, then yes, we're going to have to coordinate a lower altitude block to go lower. And realize you may have prebriefed a toboggan, however we don't decided nor control what altitude block the controlling agency gives us. We can request whatever, but if they don't give us a lower altitude block for whatever reason and we can't lower our flaps/toboggan, then sorry.

#1. What AC/EC/MC-130 can AR at 20k?

#2. You COMPLETELY missed the point. I understand the limitations of ATC, the point is don't wait until we ask to coordinate.

Pardon my ignorance in the fighter side of things...but if you are that worried about passing tail numbers over the radios, why don't you just do it on boom interphone? I know we've had many, many conversations in our jet about not garbaging the radios and passing the tail numbers once you're getting gas.

Huh? How much AR have you done? The POS boom interphone rarely works to the point of comprehension.

[Dead Last]

#1. What AC/EC/MC-130 can AR at 20k?

#2. You COMPLETELY missed the point. I understand the limitations of ATC, the point is don't wait until we ask to coordinate.

Huh? How much AR have you done? The POS boom interphone rarely works to the point of comprehension.

CH hit it right on the head, we said "we are very heavy and will need a toboggan..."

We were at 10k and tobogganed to 7k... yeah we were extremely heavy well above 155k.

cheers

[JP84U2]

Seriously....6 pages....this thread = full retard!

HUMPS

[Wolf424]

You need to proceed directly to your nearest vault and get smart on the current threats out there.

Lets not get into a pissing contest here. I'm looking at it from a War on Terror (or overseas contingency operation or whatever the fuck it's called now) vs Cold War position. I know there are threats in today's world, I was speaking more in the political aspect of who we are fighting.

Edited March 14, 2010 by TheWolf424

[Guest whatever]

There is, actually. It's small and hidden by the glareshield. Most guys don't even know it's there obviously. This one says "90120," so I have to simultaneously fly and use my brain at the same time and say "79-120." Ouch...brain.hurt.bad.

...and yet you're still reading. And posting. ...So who's the retard?

What's all that junk to the right of the gear handle??

[Wolf424]

Anyone heard rumors of slick C-130J's becoming in-flight refuelable?

I don't know what they use them for (their equivalent to HC-130s?) but I know the Italian AF has J models that can in-flight refuel...