Air/Aerial Achievement Medals

[Guest JorryFright21]

C-17's/C-130 slicks don't get to shoot back like you do either.

Yeah, you're right, our mini guns really put the fear into those RPG's, but I do see your point.

[Butters]

but some people see mirror flashes and think they're getting shot at, and sometimes it the misreps sound more like attempts at getting medals.

Some missions, although vitally important to the success of the overall mission just aren't that hairy. Medals are a waste of time. Saying that just because you flew 20 missions in the box where 95% of the time you are outside of the WEZ of everything in the country is the same as an A-10 pilot that flies 20 missions getting shot at is absolutely ludicrous. Go talk to an AH-64 or little bird pilot that get shot at all the time and ask them what they think of AF aircrew whining about not getting the "credit" their due.

I am with you! I have been in C-17s since early 02 and I have seen and heard some whoppers. Had a copilot who was convinced they were shot at be a sniper.... WTF? How do you know you were shot at by a sniper? I asked.... We saw a single tracer go by our windscreen... OK, let me get this straight you saw a flash go by you window, at night while on NVGs....Answer: Yes... any chance that was bird that was light up by you IR landing lights and you are just hoping you were shot at so you have a story to tell??? Answer: None, just a puzzled look. BTW... snipers don't uses tracers retard... it defeats the purpose.

This kind of stuff happens all the time in my community, guys sit there glued to the window looking for any flash of light they can find... Look at the number of misreps that are reported right where one of our own ranges are. Every time EOD blows something up, a red glowing piece of shrapnel will fly into the air and some Lt short on medals will report it at as 14.5mm AAA.

Now don't get me started on "Spotlighting".... I will just use words like F#$k, S#!t, and A$$ Faced C*&k Master too much and get kicked off the message board.

Same thing with the Combat Action Medal guys are putting themselves in for because they saw tracers 13 miles away.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Nole_96

[Guest Safe&Clear]

I second all this stuff. DFCs don't seem to mean a sh!t anymore-- nor Air Medals either. The AF is starting to seem like a grown-up version of the Boy Scouts. "Looky looky at all my Merit Badges please!!" And of course the promotion boards do so.... (or do they? another thread for another time.)

Yes, I have a DFC and the mission I flew it for was an awesome mission and definitely was effective at getting the job done on the ground. Lots of KIA and I did a pretty good job of coordinating things to make sure of the fact. However, that mission wasn't all that remarkable in my own mind and, despite what the citation says, I did NOT get shot at. (I saw my first RPG that night and instinctively veered away-- not yet knowing the difference between that and an SA-7 launch. Initially, everything looks brighter, closer and scarier on NVGs.)

Anyway, when I see that DFC sittin on the shelf, I just think about the other missions where I actually DID get fired on, made decisions that definitely saved lives, listened to my little voice that said "don't shoot", or did shoot and really killed a sh!t-ton of bad people, but got no medal or recognition.

Lots of missions weren't observed by the CO or picked by the brass as warranting a write-up. I didn't earn a DFC on one mission, but I earned it over the course of 3 years. That's how I sleep at night. The system, however, doesn't work that way.

In a perfect world, every unit would have a "Historian" who actually deployed with the unit. (This could be an additional duty for the useless Intel weiny who's always hanging around regurgitating sh!t from CNN.)

This person would have a system where he interviews crews a couple of times a week, or anytime a big mission is pulled off. He/ she could also have an anonymous in-box for ACs-- or anybody on the crew-- to give "attaboys" to someone who definitely made a good call that effected success. He could scan the SIPR chatter for anything reflecting credit on the unit or aircrew. He's basically a depository for favorable info.

So, said shoe-clerk then puts together a 20 minute brief for the deployed commander once a week and a full-up summary for the Sq/ Wg CC on his return home. The boss then says "Damn, that guy warrants a DFC", "That mission should be a single-event Air Medal for the whole crew", or "Wow, there's probably more to this. Talk to the Army and get me more info-- this could be a Silver Star."

And finally, "Pass all your info to my Awards/ Decs office and they shall write up person X for Medal Y as a result of mission Z" and so on.

That's how it would be done if anybody ever listened to Safe & Clear...

[Eeyore]

Yes, I have an AM for single event. It was for mission in Aug 1989, searching for Congressman Lelend's aircraft in Ethiopia while assigned to 55thSOS. My MH-60G crew found the crash site.

[POKESC17]

That's the mentality that makes most medals worthless. I'm sorry, but the crap our crews do on a basic combat sortie where nothing crazy happens, is a way more intense than anything you do in a C-17 on a "combat" mission. Hey, alright, you landed on a dirt strip. I've flown into the AOR in a few C-17's and have to laugh when you guys yank and bank on approach and departure. I sat up in the cockpit with a crew one time and the AC asked me if I wanted to help them scan for threats, I said okay. I guess it's good and important for every airframe to take their jobs as seriously as they can because then they'll be prepared for the moment when something crazy does happen, but what's crazy in a C-17 or a Herk seems pretty laid back compared to some of the stuff other airframes have seen. Don't get me wrong, dodging a manpad or a SAM is crazy no matter what airframe you fly, but some people see mirror flashes and think they're getting shot at, and sometimes it the misreps sound more like attempts at getting medals.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but it is what it is. Some missions, although vitally important to the success of the overall mission just aren't that hairy. Medals are a waste of time. Saying that just because you flew 20 missions in the box where 95% of the time you are outside of the WEZ of everything in the country is the same as an A-10 pilot that flies 20 missions getting shot at is absolutely ludicrous. Go talk to an AH-64 or little bird pilot that get shot at all the time and ask them what they think of AF aircrew whining about not getting the "credit" their due.

Now, before all the heavy guys start yelling at me, saying I don't understand, or it's more difficult that I think let me say this. I'm sure you're right, I don't understand, and I'm sure it is more difficult than it looks. Then remember that you aren't the only heavy pilots in the world, and like everyone else here, I'm friends with someone from virtually every other airframe in the inventory, and most of them are pretty realistic about the difficulty of their respective jobs.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that a C-17 coming into the AOR is as intense as anything a helo or hog does, and I have nothing but the utmost respect and at times awe for the guys and gals that hang around down that low all day , and you are right. What we do for the most part is a lot more laid back, but what you laugh at for our approaches and departures is one of our main means of self defense and the less time spent in the WEZ the better, and that goes for any airframe. All I'm saying is that the reg is written in a way that all that is required is 20 missions in three specific air spaces for an AM and everything else is an AAM. Right or wrong is again a matter of opinion and a decision that is made at a pay grade a hell of lot higher than mine. I for one could care less if I get a combat action medal, Iraqi/Afhgan campaign medal or even AM/AAM for that matter. I do care that the E's in my Sq get the medals that were earned so if i'm going to write the packages for them then I have to put the O's in as well. I guess we're back to the fact that if someone is sore that a certain airframe is getting more AM/AAM than theirs, then it is self induced.

[HerkDerka]

I agree with most of that post.

I'm sorry, but the crap our crews do on a basic combat sortie where nothing crazy happens, is a way more intense than anything you do in a C-17 on a "combat" mission.

No one's disagreeing with that. Helo's get shot at with everything from SAMs to rocks, everyone knows that. You guys never leave the WEZ and you're an easy target for any dipshit with a rifle. But then again, that's what you're supposed to do.

I've flown into the AOR in a few C-17's and have to laugh when you guys yank and bank on approach and departure....(snip)........but what's crazy in a C-17 or a Herk seems pretty laid back compared to some of the stuff other airframes have seen.

A tac airlifter full of troops can be a juicier target. Especially, when they don't have miniguns on the side.

but some people see mirror flashes and think they're getting shot at, and sometimes it the misreps sound more like attempts at getting medals.

I agree. Sadly there are plenty of types who never touch the WEZ or are seeing it for the first type and are quick to report retarded crap to intel. I puke at half the misreps I read.

Some missions, although vitally important to the success of the overall mission just aren't that hairy.

Agree, for all airframes.

Medals are a waste of time.

Agree.

Saying that just because you flew 20 missions in the box where 95% of the time you are outside of the WEZ of everything in the country is the same as an A-10 pilot that flies 20 missions getting shot at is absolutely ludicrous.

But on the same point, it's possible for the A-10 to be in less danger. Hajjis love shooting at planes that won't shoot back.

most of them are pretty realistic about the difficulty of their respective jobs.

If everyone was like that, it'd be great. The problem is some people just can't be happy with their job and have to squawk about their "combat experience" to anyone who will listen.

HD

[HercDude]

I don't have a single mission AM, but I was on a crew where 2 were awarded.

We picked up maybe 20 pax out of Balad or Baghdad, taking them back to Kuwait. About 30 minutes in to the flight both LMs started distributing extra food & water to the pax, when they noticed one guy was unresponsive. One of the LMs was a prior AE guy, and though this guy might have heat stroke. They couldn't revive him so they reccomended to us we get him on the ground ASAP. They gave him oxygen and did whatever it is you do to someone with heat exaustion or heat stroke (I'll admit I skipped SABC this year), and upfront we cordinated for a divert into Talil. The guy was in an ambulance about 12 minutes after we first got the call from the load that something wasn't right.

I didn't really see anything wrong with giving the loads an AM, as it's quite possible had we not gotten him medical attention he would have died before we got to Kuwait an hour later. What did reak of bullsh*t, was hearing one of the loads say to the AC a week later "you know we might want to consider bumping the award up to a DFC, because we never got in thewindows for the decent (because they were giving SABC), so we really put our own lives at risk." He's speaking here about flying in to Talil in '05. Right around the same time the Iraqis were shooting PRO in their brand new 40 year old Hercs there.

On hearing that, the AC (the Flyin' Haiwian for those that know him) just laughed and said "uh, I don't think so."

[Guest dtfl]

This is where we differ.

HD

First night Rhino ops - as in the SOLL II C17s landing on the dirt strip SOF had just made to prep for the assault on Khandahar? Might be more to it than just "landing" on a dirt strip.

Talk to some SOF or SOLL II guys that were there.......I got there a month later, so when we went to Rhino it was just a regular dirt strip.....we had taken Khar

Ya know - this thread brings up many questions.

There are quite a few SOF guys (myself included) that have MULTIPLE single - event medals from OEF and OIF. Like Safe and clear mentioned - some of the missions SOF accomplished during the war were above and beyond anything a non-SOF aircraft would/could have done and we did it with a gunship, couple MCs and a couple MH53s. I inserted teams that ran in, kicked the door down, grabbed someone and ran back onto the plane..I carried "people" around....etc..etc...but...we were just doing our job...were those missions more dangerous than what I do now? Hell yes. So...begs the question...do all the SOF guys deserve their medals?

Standards are relative in each community. It's up to the leadership to decide. SOF's leadership turned down MANY before they reached the OG, WG, Command, and finally, CENTAF. Many others made it and many others made it but were downgraded at CENTAF.

Edited August 11, 2007 by dtfl

[HerkDerka]

First night Rhino ops - as in the SOLL II C17s landing on the dirt strip......

.......some of the missions SOF accomplished during the war were above and beyond anything a non-SOF aircraft would/could have done and we did it with a gunship, couple MCs and a couple MH53s.

C-17s are not spec ops aircraft.

HD

[lloyd christmas]

How does the point system work for a AAM? I will have a mix of combat support missions and combat missions at the end of this current deployment. I will not have 20 between them though. Can you use the 70% rule for the first AAM even if you already have an AM or two? I have searched with google and on this site but can not find what I am looking for and the unit I am deployed with does not have any idea. Thanks in advance.

[loadsmith]

here is the link to the USAFCENT Awards and Decs folks. Read under "Directives and Policy."

Hope this helps

USAFCENT Decorations Page

Edited November 29, 2009 by loadsmith

[Herk Driver]

How does the point system work for a AAM? I will have a mix of combat support missions and combat missions at the end of this current deployment. I will not have 20 between them though. Can you use the 70% rule for the first AAM even if you already have an AM or two? I have searched with google and on this site but can not find what I am looking for and the unit I am deployed with does not have any idea. Thanks in advance.

Based on you being deployed currently, here's the bottom line. (C-130 specific) You don't necessarily need 20 missions. You need either 300 pts or 150 pts, AM or AAM, respectively. Points per mission are MDS specific, ref the above website. For illustrative purposes, (C-130 specific) Cmbt spt mission = 7.5 pts and Cmbt mission = 15 pts, so you can have less than 20 missions if you combine combat sorties with combat support in order to get an AAM. Yes, you can qualify under the 70% rule, but the 1st OLC for the AAM has to be 130%, so it really benefits you to go ahead and just qualify under the normal rules to begin with. The UDPU website has all the info.

CC's don't have to let you combine the combat and combat support sorties, but sometimes will. You just fill out the Form 1 and 3994 and you're set.

Edit: to clarify my case was MDS specific.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Herk Driver

[brock]

Unless you count the CSAR bubbas that are over there flying Medevac. I flew over 60 missions this last trip to the desert doing Medevac. It was hard for the dedicated CSAR bubbas to sit there and watch us fly so much, but alas, I know their pain. BTDT. I don't agree with getting medals so easy, and am not necessarily proud or ashamed of them, but I got 3 AM's out of that 4 month trip.

I flew over 250 missions and close to 500 hours out of Bagram and received one air medal for service. The army can be pretty stingy when it comes to air medals and DFC's.

I flew and saw guys get very little recognition for some pretty dicey missions. Remember, we fly unarmed. I'm not sure how many total hours our BN flew, probably somewhere in the 10-12K range and we had two guys put in for DFC's.

A lot of us dustoff guys didn't really care, but it seems like the Army and Air Force have one thing in common. The medal system is completely jacked up. As the unit Standards Pilot I flew numerous traffic patterns ( OIF and OEF) so staff guys could get their air medal.

[FireMission]

As the unit Standards Pilot I flew numerous traffic patterns ( OIF and OEF) so staff guys could get their air medal.

How about when you see flight docs w/ an air medal just by logging time as pax... i mean ACM.

[busdriver]

Army and Air Force ..... The medal system is completely jacked up.

Yep, older and wiser now, I've stopped giving a crap.

[GearMonkey]

Technically you can only combine AM/AAM points if the Commander doesn't expect a member to be able to earn enough AM points in the future to complete the 20 mission (a.k.a. 300 point) requirement. The way I've seen it work in the 17 community is if you are leaving the service, going to a non-flying job (school, etc.), or going to Altus you can combine your points otherwise you just have to wait.

I have heard of at least one squadron that pulled some schenannigans and tried to put all their bubbas in for AAMs after a deployment. Based on the order of medal precedance this was clearly an exercise in rack building. Rather than counting all the combat landings/overflys this squadron built Form 1s with nothing but OTBH departures/arrivals. This scam was caught at the OG level and kicked back for correction. I'm too lazy to look it up right now but the USAFCENT guidance is pretty clear cut about counting combat activities towards combat decorations (AMs) and combat-support toward combat-support (AAMs).

Edited November 29, 2009 by GearMonkey

[brock]

Yep, older and wiser now, I've stopped giving a crap.

I feel the same. I've talked to you enough to know that you care about your crews. Especially the guys in the back. I've witnessed our medics and your PJ's do some great things and they have gone unnoticed. That is the part that blows.

[Herk Driver]

Technically you can only combine AM/AAM points if the Commander doesn't expect a member to be able to earn enough AM points in the future to complete the 20 mission (a.k.a. 300 point) requirement. The way I've seen it work in the 17 community is if you are leaving the service, going to a non-flying job (school, etc.), or going to Altus you can combine your points otherwise you just have to wait.

I have heard of at least one squadron that pulled some schenannigans and tried to put all their bubbas in for AAMs after a deployment. Based on the order of medal precedance this was clearly an exercise in rack building. Rather than counting all the combat landings/overflys this squadron built Form 1s with nothing but OTBH departures/arrivals. This scam was caught at the OG level and kicked back for correction. I'm too lazy to look it up right now but the USAFCENT guidance is pretty clear cut about counting combat activities towards combat decorations (AMs) and combat-support toward combat-support (AAMs).

Unless you know something that I don't, it is EOG/CC discretion. Deployed EOG's are the award authority for AMs and AAMs at the present time. They get to make the call. The latest AM/AAM medal eligibility criteria for OIF states in the remarks for the AM "each AM eligible mission has 15 points value. Can be applied towards an AM or AAM. (see note 6)" Note 6 is about UAV operators not being authorized award of the AM.

So, in the case you mention above, the OG had the ability to say no and kick them back. However, there have been recent cases of this and it was not for a guy going to staff or non-flying; although, I'll admit, that's what I've seen the most of.

[GearMonkey]

Unless you know something that I don't, it is EOG/CC discretion. Deployed EOG's are the award authority for AMs and AAMs at the present time. They get to make the call. The latest AM/AAM medal eligibility criteria for OIF states in the remarks for the AM "each AM eligible mission has 15 points value. Can be applied towards an AM or AAM. (see note 6)" Note 6 is about UAV operators not being authorized award of the AM.

So, in the case you mention above, the OG had the ability to say no and kick them back. However, there have been recent cases of this and it was not for a guy going to staff or non-flying; although, I'll admit, that's what I've seen the most of.

While the reg is written with EOGs in mind we end up running most of ours through the OG and AW back at home station. The EOG process is much simpler to use (more focus on recognizing service less on spelling and line-spacing) but we just don't have the manpower to generate all the awards while deployed. Also, we're often part way through an OLC at the end of a deployment and end up closing it out after a few regular (non-deployed) trips down range.

I've been out of the A&D game for a year now so things may have changed. I suspect, however, that there might be other limits on AM points for AAMs scattered thorughout the guidance. Like most AF documents it wasn't written very well.

[Guest TheBurt]

First of all I must say to all this, who cares? The good ol' USAF is giving out bronze stars to people on tours where they do nothing but carry a crackberry and a brick around and a nice big title of "deputy vice command staffer ma jingle", The system is broke............

Anyway, I said all that to say this, I bet all your "medal" questions could be answered by the guy that came onto baseops a month or two ago claiming, that he was "probably The most decorated member of baseops", where is he when you really need him?

[Hacker]

I bet all your "medal" questions could be answered by the guy that came onto baseops a month or two ago claiming, that he was "probably The most decorated member of baseops", where is he when you really need him?

I missed that one. What thread was that in??

[Homestar]

Does anyone have the link to the AFCENT air medal and dec tracking website? The link I had for the past 6 years stopped working a couple months ago.

[SocialD]

Does anyone have the link to the AFCENT air medal and dec tracking website? The link I had for the past 6 years stopped working a couple months ago.

Same here...I e-mailed AFCENT, no response.

[Homestar]

I guess the war's over.

[ThreeHoler]

https://portal.afcent.af.mil/afcent/direct/a1/Wiki%20Pages/UDPU_Home_Page.aspx

.mil required, of course. There is a link to the "Award Status" page on this main page.

Edited February 20, 2014 by ThreeHoler