Heavy to fighter

[Guest spar91]

i didn't want to hijack a thread, but scoobs (i think) advised someone in upt to fly fighters (they were undecided) because they could always go fly heavies later.

and so i wondered if anyone has ever gone the opposite direction - heavies to fighters?

i don't know of any, nor have i ever heard of any.

how about you?

[Gravedigger]

I don't have any hard facts, but yes it has happened. I've heard of a few pilots that went to Guard fighter units from heavies. I've also heard that there was or is a way to cross over AD under certain circumstances.

[ClearedHot]

The fighter cross-flow program has come and gone several times through the years. Next time there is a shortage look for the to fire it back up.

[Guest JK73703]

I don't know anything about an AD cross-flow board, but here's a fact...a former Buckley C-21 dude just graduated from the B-Course at Luke and is on his way back to his unit for MQT. So there is definitely a cross-flow board for guard guys. Yes he did fly T-1's in pilot training...and yes he did have one hell of a time making it through IFF. If you go the cross-flow route they give you like 10 hours in the T-38 at Randolph before they send you off to IFF.

[Guest Bulldog79]

Here comes the age old question yet again. Anyone know of some recent examples of a heavy driver getting hired to fly fighters? I was track restricted during UPT for sitting height but that issue has since been lifted since the measurement was bad. Any advice on how to get a guard or reserve unit to take some interest from a -135 driver? I know guard/reserve units like to hire from within. What about taking a non-flying assignment with a fighter unit in hopes of getting a flying assignment later? Sounds risky but I think it might be worth chasing the dream. Anyone?

[ 14. October 2006, 05:41: Message edited by: Toro ]

[GreasySideUp]

Met a fella 2 years ago in IFF for a hog unit that flew 135's AD.

96% positive he flew tweets and tones and then the 135. When he got picked up for the hog he was sent through a qual at Randolph for the 38. He made it through IFF but I have no idea how he did past that.

I know two captains right now in RTU for Viper units that flew Bones, had 38 time but no fighter time so a little bit different situation but they got hired because they were awsome dudes and would be good fits with the unit. They could teach them how to fly fighters knowing its tough to train personalities.

"So if a pig had a personality it would ceace to be a filthy animal?" You'll have to be one charming tanker pilot but I'm at least saying theres a chance.

[Guest thefranchise]

Met at guys that got picked up for Vipers @ Montgomery who flew tweet/tones and ?kc10s?. He was at Vance going through 38s this past year.

[ 17. October 2006, 06:02: Message edited by: thefranchise ]

[Guest GardGuy]

Originally posted by GreasySideUp:

96% positive he flew tweets and tones and then the 135. When he got picked up for the hog he was sent through a qual at Randolph for the 38. He made it through IFF but I have no idea how he did past that.

I know two captains right now in RTU for Viper units that flew Bones, had 38 time but no fighter time so a little bit different situation but they got hired because they were awsome dudes and would be good fits with the unit. They could teach them how to fly fighters knowing its tough to train personalities.

"So if a pig had a personality it would ceace to be a filthy animal?" You'll have to be one charming tanker pilot but I'm at least saying theres a chance.

I'm one of "those Captains" Greasy talked about, and the other is a good buddy of mine. Dude like he said there is always a chance. The best Gard units hire based on your personality being a good fit for the unit. I interviewed against quite a number of current and qualified Viper drivers and was going to require well over a year of training just to get me back to the sq. When I asked about this I was told, one year is nothing compared to hiring the wrong guy for 20.

The guy that got me hired was a former Army Helo pilot, I'm in RTU right now (Just passed my Viper check ride!!) with another former Army chopper driver, and the Montgomery Guy who went through T-1's bound for C-130's before jumping over to Vipers. Longer story just a bit longer - if the Gard wants to hire you they will find a way to get you the training u need.

[Guest jeff1234]

Originally posted by Bulldog79:

Here comes the age old question yet again. Anyone know of some recent examples of a heavy driver getting hired to fly fighters? I was track restricted during UPT for sitting height but that issue has since been lifted since the measurement was bad. Any advice on how to get a guard or reserve unit to take some interest from a -135 driver? I know guard/reserve units like to hire from within. What about taking a non-flying assignment with a fighter unit in hopes of getting a flying assignment later? Sounds risky but I think it might be worth chasing the dream. Anyone?

Any recent examples? No. Has it happened before? Yes, I have personally seen it twice, once from a prior helicopter guard pilot and the second one a KC-135 guard pilot. Keep in mind this was all 5+ years back. The former, now flying the F-15 and the other now flying the F-16. In my experience/opinion it is a rare event but like so many other flying jobs there is a general perception of how to get a job vs. being in the right place at the right time, at least that’s my experience. Case and point, I personally witnessed a OG approach a great friend of mine who was flying C-21's (at the time) and aggressively pursued him to fly the A-10 for the guard. BTW my bud was a T-37 & T-1 background. Anyways all the questions were brought up about T-38 qual, IFF, etc. He was reassured that the guard would send him to all the courses and be successfully transferred into the squadron. Now it never happened because he eventually decided it was not what he wanted, but it was all about the “right place at the right time” with the right attitude/personality. Publicly this A-10 squadron was not hurting for pilots nor advertising for them. But this OG felt my bud would be a great asset and outstanding contribution to the unit so he took the time to pursue him. Now I would venture to say that if some random person would have asked this OG about the current hiring status, my $$ would be on getting an reply of "nope we are not hiring” from him. Same thing in the civilian world, such as in the cooperate flying I do when not flying in the reserves. If we see a person we want then we will do our best to "create" a position for him/her as well as actively recruit them. And it may or may not be in line with current hiring needs. I’ve personally seen my company turn away very qualified candidates, but that’s all they were, “qualified”, not “desired”.

Why did I mention this and does it answer your questions? Maybe not but its just to show there are possibilities out there when the stars are aligned and you are in the right place, not to necessarily give hope, so take all this as you wish.

So is a cross flow possible? Yes…...But likely? probably not, with no recent examples I know of, which in reality means nothing since I am way out of the loop these days.

[Guest jad1900]

I met a guy when I visited Kirtland AFB who is flying Vipers for the Guard there. Not only was he a helicopter pilot before that, but in the Army as well.

He said they had a two-stage interview procedure: one was at a board where they asked him all sorts of questions and the guys who didn't come of as arrogant know-it-alls and just really had a desire to fly Vipers had a leg up. The other part was a social gathering with the applicants, the guys from the Squadron and the hottest wives. They drank for a few hours to see which ones hit on the wives and made asses of themselves.

All in all...definitely possible to make the switch.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by jdizzle:

I met a guy when I visited Kirtland AFB who is flying Vipers for the Guard there. Not only was he a helicopter pilot before that, but in the Army as well.

He said they had a two-stage interview procedure: one was at a board where they asked him all sorts of questions and the guys who didn't come of as arrogant know-it-alls and just really had a desire to fly Vipers had a leg up. The other part was a social gathering with the applicants, the guys from the Squadron and the hottest wives. They drank for a few hours to see which ones hit on the wives and made asses of themselves.

All in all...definitely possible to make the switch.

First, getting hired by a fighter unit as a chopper guy with tactical experience (especially attack experience working at night, managing different sensors, weapons systems and delivering weapons) is often far easier than getting hired as a heavy guy with a bunch of autopilot hours. No offense to the heavy guys but it just makes sense.

Second, I seriously doubt the guy has any idea why he was really hired or exactly what the unit members were actually thinking about him or the other candidates in the bar.

[Guest GardGuy]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Second, I seriously doubt the guy has any idea why he was really hired or exactly what the unit members were actually thinking about him or the other candidates in the bar.

Actually that guy knows exactly why he was hired. He is an awesome dude and was hired because they knew he would be a great addition to the Taco's based on personality / work ethic. His background was mostly unimportant. This was the guy that got me hired and I also asked the question, "Why me?" when I interviewed against many a current and qualified Viper driver. Bottom line if your a good dude and fit well in the unit during your interview/hanging out drill weekends you have a serious shot.

Go for your dreams, just be ready to work hard. I would actually say chances are decent if you aren't a duche. Including myself, I know of six non-fighter dudes in or recently back from RTU. It's worth a shot cause flying the Viper is kick ass and the Gard is a great gig. The Gard fertilizier must be great cause the grass is greener over here.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

The grass is green on all sides if you really do have a good attitude.

A person with a truly good attitude will find the positive aspects of any situation and amplify them for everyone else around them.

Be careful when listening to the advice you get on these boards. Don't make any life changing decisions based on what you read here. There are some pragmatic truth tellers who may actually know how the decisions in a unit are made. They are often seen as cranky old assholes, probably because they are. Just because they don't tell you what you want to hear doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.

There are some high speed cheerleaders who think they know how the hiring decisions were made simply because the decisions were made in their favor. They don't. No way a guy knows what the leadership was thinking when it comes to their manning document, rank structure, view of the other candidates and a bunch more crap. No way.

Saying a person's background is unimportant in the hiring process is just plain bananas and bullshit.

It takes more than personality to lead a flight in combat at night in shitty weather with people shooting at you. In fact, personality has little to do with it unless you get shot down...which is likely if personality was all that got you into the jet in the first place.

It doesn't take much to be a mediocre peacetime Guard fighter pilot who can laminate a single lineup card because he goes to the exact same ranges at the exact same range times for his entire Guard flying career, with the exception of a few very brief deployments where his hand will be held the whole time.

Remember, there are plenty of guys who found their way into a fighter through the back door of a Guard unit and are willing to lap up the slop from the overflow beer catch. The euphoric zeal that comes from getting selected to fly a fighter in the Guard based on "personality" rather than talent on active duty often wears off if the guy is not a very good pilot. Sure, he'll still strut around with his "Fighter Driver" patches but he is not happy in the jet or debrief or when he is not allowed to lead anything important (or maybe lead anything ever).

There are a lot of Guard guys who are happy they got their shot but are secretly insecure about their ability to get the job done. The good news for those guys is you can hide in a Guard unit. On active duty you end up on the dung heap. So I guess that's a good thing about the guard, the weak sisters get to keep flying jets (in some units) as long as they don't kill themselves.

Guard units are very strange and unpredictable places. Some really wacky shit goes on in some units. Unbelievable and frightening shit.

Rule #1: Timing is everything.

Sure, it is possible to make the leap...if your timing is good. But I guess that is true about anything in life.

No, it is not likely.

Yes, you probably have to know someone.

No, it is not just about "being a totally good and awesome dude" in any unit worth a shit flying heavy or fighter. Some units use the personality litmus test and overlook your history. Others hand pick carefully from active duty and from within the unit. Most units use a combination of those techniques based on their current needs, urgency to hire and availability of applicants.

Again, timing is everything.

Good luck.

[B-O-double-Z]

Originally posted by GardGuy:

Actually, that's what the worst Guard/Reserve units do.

I would rather have a unit full of professionals (even ass-holes) who can fly the sh!t out of the airplane.

The absolute best hire for any unit is a current and qualified instructor, from active duty, in the type of aircraft the unit flies. Deduct points from there.

As for Guard/Reserve UPT inputs, give me a guy who's well educated, and has a track record of accomplishment in a competitive enviornment. That's not always the "Crew Chief of the Month."

I've been an A-10 instructor in Active Duty, the Guard, and the Reserves, and have probably flown with and instructed more people than anyone on this board (with the possible exception of Rainman).

Believe who you want...

[Guest Bulldog79]

Thanks for all the replies to my original post. The responses I got have been usefull and encouraging. The original intent of my post was to gather some information on airframe crossflow and so far it has generated some interesting discussion. I did not intend to crap up the message board by asking a question that has been asked time and time again but rather to find some recent examples of crossflow and how it was done. My apologies for the SA breach.

As for the AD vs Guard......in my short time in the Air Force, I have worked with very capable people on both sides of the house. To take aim at either side on a merit/ability basis is silly but that's just my 2 pennies worth. Each of us has a very unique mission to fly and maybe I'm just being idealistic but I like to think we're all doing it for the same reason. I'll continue to watch the message board for usefull info. Thanks again and my apologies if I steped on anyone's toes.

GardGuy: don't see you registered (PM). Any way of contacting you?

[matmacwc]

So its been 6 years, what is the outcome?

[HeloDude]

So its been 6 years, what is the outcome?

They're still waiting for the functionals at AFPC to return the phone calls.

[Spoo]

So its been 6 years, what is the outcome?

My first thought was, "Holy shit, it's Thanksgiving and you're sitting around thinking about 6 year old threads?!?"

Then I poured another Scotch.

[matmacwc]

My first thought was, "Holy shit, it's Thanksgiving and you're sitting around thinking about 6 year old threads?!?"

Then I poured another Scotch.

I was already on my 5th, pissed at the wife/kids and in-laws......

[Learjetter]

I was already on my 5th, pissed at the wife/kids and in-laws......

THAT'S the holiday spirit you're drinking...

[sechuck1]

Just wondering if anyone has heard of the heavy to fighter crossover program coming back? If so how does it work? If im already hired but waiting to start upt training do I simply contact the desired unit and ask them if they want to "hire" me instead?

[Butters]

Just wondering if anyone has heard of the heavy to fighter crossover program coming back? If so how does it work? If im already hired but waiting to start upt training do I simply contact the desired unit and ask them if they want to "hire" me instead?

Yes, I have heard of this happening. However the way you want to go about it is not going to help. The best way to do it is to go to the guys that hired you and tell them heavies suck ass and anyone that flies them them is not a real American. Then tell them you are a stone cold killer and want to fly fighters like the best pilots in the Air Force. Trust me, they will fear and respect you for your honesty. Soon they will find you an appropriate fighter unit to join. Good luck, you are in this for all the right reasons.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Butters

[pcola]

Yes, I have heard of this happening. However the way you want to go about it is not going to help. The best way to do it is to go to the guys that hired you and tell them heavies suck ass and anyone that flies them them is not a real American. Then tell them you are a stone cold killer and want to fly fighters like the best pilots in the Air Force. Trust me, they will fear and respect you for your honesty. Soon they will find you an appropriate fighter unit to join. Good luck, you are in this for all the right reasons.

This is not true. Do not take this bad advice. The last thing you want to do is burn bridges at you new "old" unit.

The best way to get hired by a better unit is to start a facebook page to market your abilities. Post the link here. If you were good enough to get hired by a heavy unit, and you can put your quals on a facebook page and get it out there, the fighter units will be banging down your door to get you to cross over. This forum is a really good avenue for that kind of self promotion. Nobody's going to get you hired but you!

[HU&W]

Perhaps you should start your new facebook page, or possibly blog if you really want to get promoted from heavy to fighter, with an autobiography. A few years ago, somebody in a similar situation to you found much success with his autobiography. I'll post it here for you to use as a template.

SUBJECT: Autobiography

1. I’m Lt Goff, from a western suburb of Always Sunny Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

2. Attended USAFA, class of 2011. No prior service but am an eagle scout which may as well have been a preparation program for the Academy. In life, I’m a doer. I make things happen. In my spare time I run my 4 mile loop each day on base, mountain bike, ride my motorcycle, and really enjoy learning about physics and the tech of tomorrow. I’m definitely not the type to sit still. I like to absorb the world around me. I'd rather walk than drive. I’m always giving off a positive air to those around me

3. I am single.

4. For my AF career plans I envision flying as long as I can and hopefully one day working my way to the level of squadron commander and beyond. I enjoy talking with people, so the higher up the position, the more at home I’ll be with the job. I know enough about the civilian world to know that the caliber of people we work with in the Air Force is way beyond that of the standard burger flipping pothead my age in the civilian world. I like the responsibility, the travel (eventually), and the hard working people. I will do everything in my power to get a fighter. I’d like a Raptor. Why am I so set on a fighter? Simple. I was born for it. I’ve had the dream of flying a fighter since I was six and my daddy took me up in a Cessna 150 and we were in the pattern with two guard F-16s. They did some missed approaches directly over us as we were on our landing rollout. On the spot I said to myself, “That is for me.” My mindset since I was a toddler has been a fast paced, decisive, jump-right-in way of thinking. I have always had a knack for doing many things at once, and doing them well. I don’t dread going to the gym, in fact I love to work out, and each time I do I ponder how those same reps could help me stay conscious for that 9g dogfight I may be in with an Iranian/whoever MiG someday. Driving my car down the road I make it a point to drive not at 31 mph, I peg the speedometer on 30 mph because my ability to be precise and still look out the window and enjoy the day gives me a sense of accomplishment. I’m a calculated, precise, and confident dude. That’s my mindset, and that’s why I believe I shall fly a fighter. It’s me. Now just let me prove it to you. Thanks for your time.

Jack Goff, 2LT, USAF

47 FTW Student Pilot

[pcola]

That autobiography is my inspiration...henceforth. Thanks for sharing!