Guard Assignment drops vs AD

[Guest CrewDawg1]

I was talking to a friend of mine who has recently completed UPT and we got to talking about how us guard guys usually take a fair amount of crap (all in good fun, as an enlisted guard person I understand this and was introduced to this in tech school) and one thing that came up was an active guy having some hard feelings toward a guard fighter guy because he “stole” his 38 spot. So this leads me to my question. I was wondering about class drops in reference to guard pilots. Lets say there is a guard fighter guy in the class so he needs a T-38 slot, does that take away from the 38 slots for the active guys or does AFPC just add another 38 slot? Also is it done this way with Assignment night?

[ 22. January 2005, 20:29: Message edited by: CrewDawg1 ]

[Guest Slye]

Guard slots are totally independant of active duty slots. There should be little to no animosity between the two since it's fairly clear in UPT that they have no influence on the active duty tracks/drops. The guard needs x number of fighter pilots and the active duty needs x number of fighter pilots and the active duty isn't going to produce less fighter pilots just because some guard guys came through and took those slots, they'll just add an extra one in for them.

During the track ceremony, all the aircraft are up on the board and disappear as they are given out and they even separate into a different column the active duty from the guard/reserve/international people.

[Guest CrewDawg1]

Alright thats what I figured....maybe there was more to the situation than I know. Thanks for the quick reply.

[Guest TheBobGoat]

the only way it can interfere can be:

a few guard dudes and/or nato type 38 guys are in your class

there are only so many spots they can accomodate in the 38 flight -- if you got 6 dudes who fall in the above category, maybe only 4 AD jets can be given

[Smokin]

Most AD studs are glad to have guard guys in their class. One more guy they don't have to worry about competing with.

[Guest NimitsTexan]

Originally posted by Stud@ENJJPT:

Most AD studs are glad to have guard guys in their class. One more guy they don't have to worry about competing with.

EXACTLY!

[ 23. January 2005, 19:19: Message edited by: NimitsTexan ]

[Guest TheBobGoat]

i find that funny coming from an ENJJPT guy.

[Flare]

Originally posted by TheBobGoat:

i find that funny coming from an ENJJPT guy.

He's probably talking about overall assignments, not track select. Our assignment night works like any other base w/ T-38s......

[Guest TheBobGoat]

ya, i figured as much -- still funny

hate that damn upt competition

[Guest Shortbus]

Originally posted by TheBobGoat:

the only way it can interfere can be:

a few guard dudes and/or nato type 38 guys are in your class

there are only so many spots they can accomodate in the 38 flight -- if you got 6 dudes who fall in the above category, maybe only 4 AD jets can be given

This is totally incorrect. Imagine if you will that the guard guys in your class are not in your class at all. The money and slots for the 38s come from the Guard Beureau. They have nothing to do with the active duty 38s that may be given out. If your drop is 16 T-38s you have 2 guard guys going on to 38s, than the actual drop was 14 T-38s. There has never been a problem supporting a T-38 drop any more than supporting a T-1 drop, or a T-44 drop. Every class is different and they will adjust to what ever comes down the pipe. My class only had 4 T-38 slots. The class after us had 12.

There has been a big problem with this line of thinking. Part of the reason FAIPs get bitter is they think a guard guy got their fighter, or that they didn't earn their fighter, it was handed to them. I am not even saying that all FAIPs are bitter as I was a guard fighter guy and all of our FAIPs were cool as shit. It's just that when bad info is passed around people get angry. Trust me on this one, I know what I'm talking about, you will get x many T-38 slots regardless of how many guard guys are in your class.

[Chuck17]

I get that and I agree...

My SQ/CC and the WG/CC at my UPT base said that the reason that our class got 5-AD T-38 slots was becuase we had a max of 10-12 stud slots per 38 class and we had 2 transfers from Moody, 2 Italians and one guy wash back... making a total of 10.

I understand the reasoning behind who pays for the slots and how they are divided out, but if my Sq/CC or Wg/CC is telling me thats the way it is I am inclined to believe it...

[Guest TheBobGoat]

the whole '10 slots max' thing I was talking about has nothing to do with funding or anything else. It has to do with physical building space and # of IP's in the 38 sq. there are physical limitations that occur. If you have a class with a large portion of foreign and guard 38's it does affect the AD dudes

[Guest Shortbus]

You guys are missing my point. I realize that there are physical limitations on the number of people that can fit into a class. But if you have no guard/foreign/other in your class at all you will not get any more slots. Those slots are scheduled for the non-AD AF. I guarantee you will never see an all AD AF class first of all, and second, if that was to happen you will never get a drop of 10 38s for all AD AF out of one class. The # of 38 training slots are set at an Air Force wide scheduling meeting for the year. Some MAY be added as needs arise, and some May be taken away throughout the year, however they get divvied up to a fairly equal ammount to all of the bases (% wise). It wouldn't be fair to say our base had 10 guys in this class that got all Es on their checks and your base had 10 guys that all got Gs on their checks, so since our guys beat yours we get all of the 38s and you guys get none. Each UPT base has different standards as to what constitutes an E and you all know some IPs just grade harder or easier. Since this is a fact they try to give out an equal ammount to all of the UPT bases, the AF is allocated x many 38 slots for the whole year. The guard is allocated x many at the same base for the whole year. If a guard guy doesn't get FARed out of tweets, and the drop was 6 38s they don't just roll some AD guy into that 38 slot. That slot BELONGS to the guard and so the class will go on with only 5 studs. The guard doesn't lose it, they will just call up another guard base that is waiting on a slot and say "hey we just had a short notice drop, can you send your guy next week to start a class." The 38 slot that wasn't taken by the guard guy originally goes back into the guard bureau bank account until they decide to use it on someone else. After all of my droning on, my point is I understand what you are trying to say, but that scinerio would never happen. I know what you are thinking, but stop this style of thinking as it leads to bad blood. You guys aren't in competition with the guard guys for 38s. There is no need to be angry that you might have lost a 38 slot because a guard guy was in your class. The guard guys almost always get lower FLT Commanders rankings even if they were the most kick ass guy in the class. This is because the flt commanders use this as a tool to help out someone they think may do better in 38. Two guys with nearly equal #s, but they think one guy may do a little better or is more mature. It doesn't affect the guard guy to be low in commanders ranking and we don't care. I think you would find that most of the fighter guard guys will go out of their way to help out a guy in their class. Where as what I had in my class was one of the AD guys that was just kicking ass would not lift a finger to help anybody else because in his words "that would make them more competitive against me when the 38 drop comes down." You all know what I'm talking about, the guy that had the good gouge and wouldn't share it with the rest of the class. What ever it may be, there IS a competition going on for 38 slots and I will tell you the guard fighter guys don't want anything to do with it. Bobgoat I get what you are saying brother, but you have to admit that is a pretty far fetched occurance. Sorry about the babble

[Guest TheBobGoat]

i agree that what i am talking about is rare, and i agree with what you are saying about the guard slots vs. the AD slots. i was just saying that is the only way i can think of the guard guys/nato affecting AD slots.

as far as bad blood, people who think that the guard dude took away 'their' slot just needed to do better to get 'their' slot.

[Guest Shortbus]

True dat

[Vetter]

Shortbus, why do you think all active duty guys think that guard guys take slots? The vast majority of people understand that guard dudes have no effect on the number of -38 slots. The ones that are bothered are the ones that weren't good enough to get a -38. That being said...if I had just missed a -38 while the guard dude who finished 12th got to go to fighters...I would have been pissed, then I would have promply gotten over it.

Also, if a guard guy isn't good enough to get his -38 slot, that particular slot will go to an AD person. The guard will get an AD slot later down the road as a trade.

[Guest Shortbus]

First of all I never said ALL I said a lot of people have the misconception, you said it all yourself, now you sound like one in the group I was talking about........

Originally posted by Vetter:

if I had just missed a -38 while the guard dude who finished 12th got to go to fighters...I would have been pissed

Who wouldn't be pissed off, if I was in their situation I would have been pissed at myself for not going to the guard, and then I wouldn't have to worry about that situation. What you yourself said is why I think a lot of AD guys are bitter at the guard guys. I am not saying even close to all of them, maybe not even half, but it's those few dipshits that go around talking smack that incite crap. I'm not pissed at you vetter, but you are the one that asked the question.

Have a nice day

[Vetter]

Why would a person be a dipshit if they get pissed when a person who did worse in Phase 2 than them are flying the aircraft they wanted to fly since they were small children?

By the way, I am not one in the group that you are talking about. One of my best friends is a guard A-10 dude that squeeked into -38's by the skin of his teeth. I don't hate him. He could handle the -38...but I know of at least three gaurd guys who didn't do well enough in -38's to get recommended for IFF, or worse, washed out of IFF. I am not arguing with you on where your guard slots are coming from. Hell, I admit that I am kicking myself for not applying for that guard slot.

But what do I know? I am just one of those bitter FAIPs that got my fighter taken away from me.

Shortbus, what do you fly?

[Guest Shortbus]

There has been a trend of guard guys, and active duty guys for that matter not making it through IFF. I just was involved in interviewing 3 people last friday that didn't get fARed. I was an F-16 guy that didn't work out so well. Best thing that's ever happened to me. I got 800 hrs in the 135R in the last 10 months. UPS here I come. Been all over the world, no sandbox (except Isreal). There was an IG investigation started by another guard guy that was in my class involving unfair treatment of guard guys. I didn't want to be involved even though I got a stiff one in the pooper and should have made a big deal about it. That is why this is such a sensative subject. I'm not bitter, just don't want false rumors spread and have some other guard guy have to go through what I went through. We had one guy in my class in paricular that was always making comments about "the 2 fighter guard guys taking one of their 38 slots". Most of the guys in the class told him to shut his mouth, but I know it made some of the guys that really wanted 38s think when they didn't get 38s. Oh well I had a good time and I am still having a good time. The worst flying job is better than the best ground job any day of the week.

Vetter, just remember all of the guys lives and dreams you hold in your hands being a bitter FAIP. You hold their futures in your hands. If they fail, you failed.