Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[guineapigfury]

Invalid at release. The only thing any guard or reserve unit is getting converted to these days is MQ-9s.

[Day Man]

I'm sure the only possible explanation for a lower hook and washout rate in the T-38 is an easier program. It couldn't be that poor performers in the T-6 are usually sent to the T-1.

You must have been real mad to make an account and post for this one.

[SocialD]

Invalid at release. The only thing any guard or reserve unit is getting converted to these days is MQ-9s.

Besides Ft Wayne, Kansas City, Boise, Pease, Seymour, etc...

[dvlax40]

Besides Ft Wayne, Kansas City, Boise, Pease, Seymour, etc...

Yeah I dunno how that reaper shiz stacks up. Besides they go reapers and you move yo ass to another base if able no? Edited May 11, 2015 by dvlax40

[ViperStud]

Yeah I dunno how that reaper shiz stacks up. Besides they go reapers and you move to ass to another base if able no?

Shack. Life is all about options, might as well keep as many open for as long as possible. Regardless of your goals in life, that is a good thing to keep in mind. Especially in this case, if the "easier" path is the one that keeps those options open.

[xcraftllc]

Speaking of which, this actually contributes to the argument that when the T-X finally comes out, it should replace T-38 and T-1. Sure simplifies logistics and scheduling.

[Majestik Møøse]

Someone with a brain? Although T-38s are considered the easier program these days, or at least have a lower hook and washout rate.

Dude, you're out of your mind.

[Slander]

Let's be honest with ourselves dudes. Neither of them is all that hard. We're talking about a year's worth of training to be able to takeoff, land, and navigate to and from an airspace or another airport safely. C'mon. At the time I definitely thought it was stressful...and then I went through some CAF upgrades. It's not. Who cares if you're asking the dude next to you to change your radio frequency in the t-1 or if you're trying to figure out what "tactical formation is" while flying 0.7s in the T-38. It's just not that hard to finish either track.

[tac airlifter]

Let's be honest with ourselves dudes. Neither of them is all that hard. We're talking about a year's worth of training to be able to takeoff, land, and navigate to and from an airspace or another airport safely. C'mon. At the time I definitely thought it was stressful...and then I went through some CAF upgrades. It's not. Who cares if you're asking the dude next to you to change your radio frequency in the t-1 or if you're trying to figure out what "tactical formation is" while flying 0.7s in the T-38. It's just not that hard to finish either track.

Dude spot on. I hardly remember UPT nor do I care what track a new guy/gal flew.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Let's be honest with ourselves dudes. Neither of them is all that hard. We're talking about a year's worth of training to be able to takeoff, land, and navigate to and from an airspace or another airport safely. C'mon. At the time I definitely thought it was stressful...and then I went through some CAF upgrades. It's not. Who cares if you're asking the dude next to you to change your radio frequency in the t-1 or if you're trying to figure out what "tactical formation is" while flying 0.7s in the T-38. It's just not that hard to finish either track.

Spot on, but for some reason the AF has decided that flying a T-1 in UPT somehow permanently prevents someone from having the ability to fly fighters or bombers. So instead of attempting to cross flow trained pilots to fill fighter shortages they try to offer insane bonuses. Unreal.

[ViperStud]

First, the bonus is not insane. Trying to bridge the gap between compensation for pilots on the outside (airlines, corporate) and on AD only makes sense if you're trying to retain people. It also hasn't gone up from 25K/yr in almost 20 years. No smart companies on the outside pay every person (software dude, accountant, engineer) exactly the same based on time with the company. Nor should the AF.

Second, cross-training isn't the answer. Taking a KC-135 guy at 12 years TOS and putting him through the B-course may give you a slightly above average wingman - not a flight lead and certainly not an IP. It works both ways; if I were to TX into a C-17 unit it would take a while to actually be anything more than a viable co-pilot. I know dudes that made that TX quickly in guard units and admit they were a liability as anything other than a right-seater.

I also don't think taking a t-1 tracked tanker dude at 12 years and sending them to IFF after getting 10-20 fam rides in the T-38 is exactly a recipe for success. Agree, hopefully the T-X puts this all to bed.

[BFM this]

Taking a KC-135 guy at 12 years TOS and putting him through the B-course may give you a slightly above average wingman - not a flight lead and certainly not an IP. [...]

I also don't think taking a t-1 tracked tanker dude at 12 years and sending them to IFF after getting 10-20 fam rides in the T-38 is exactly a recipe for success. Agree, hopefully the T-X puts this all to bed.

That's not how the cross flow has worked previously. You'd target T-38 grads who are 2-3 years into their first ops assignment and offer them a shot at IFF. No worse off than FAIPs.

[WheelsOff]

That's not how the cross flow has worked previously. You'd target T-38 grads who are 2-3 years into their first ops assignment and offer them a shot at IFF. No worse off than FAIPs.

Shack.

Agree, hopefully the T-X puts this all to bed.

I agree with your assumption that a fighter dude would not be much more than a viable copilot crossflowing to a heavy starting out and a tanker guy not being more than a slightly above average wingman at first, but I disagree with this statement above.

A stud who goes through this new "T-X" version of UPT (read: the "old" way when everyone flew the white rocket) would be no better off if he were to crossflow from a heavy to a fighter (or vice versa) than a current product of the system that flew the T-38 track who is "universally assignable"... Both the current T-38 track and the future proposed "T-X" program will essentially produce the same product: a pilot who is trained to think and fly fast with a single-seat mindset all throughout UPT. (Because anyone can learn the crew concept down the road (not knocking the T-1). I know, I'm a product of that system myself.)

Edited May 12, 2015 by WheelsOff

[ViperStud]

A stud who goes through this new "T-X" version of UPT (read: the "old" way when everyone flew the white rocket) would be no better off if he were to crossflow from a heavy to a fighter (or vice versa) than a current product of the system that flew the T-38 track who is "universally assignable"...

Agree with everything you said. What I meant to communicate is that hopefully the T-X puts to bed some of the incessant whining by people who were a little bummed on track select or assignment night and hold the grudge for an entire career.

There are 3 kinds of USAF pilots out there:

1: people who were generally happy at track/drop and have no axe to grind.

2: people who were bummed at track/drop, but got over it and bloomed where the AF planted them. Sure, over a beer they may tell you the story - no H-1s that day, not enough 38s, forced to 38s, blew a check ride or two. That being said, they usually can't imagine the past 6-19 years any other way and have made peace with their careers.

3: people who were bummed at track/drop and are insecure about it. They are the ones who introduce themselves with "I fly X-XX, it's what I wanted!" and bitch about (A) people who went down a different path or (B) the opportunities that path presents them later in life. Everyone they talk to for more than 5 mins knows their "story" and they go an entire career holding grudges against other people while failing to accept one thing - UPT is the closest thing to a pure meritocracy we have. If things didn't work out exactly like you wanted them to, look in a mirror.

Hopefully the T-X eliminates some of option 3.

[fox two]

3: people who were bummed at track/drop and are insecure about it. They are the ones who introduce themselves with "I fly X-XX, it's what I wanted!" and bitch about (A) people who went down a different path or (B) the opportunities that path presents them later in life. Everyone they talk to for more than 5 mins knows their "story" and they go an entire career holding grudges against other people while failing to accept one thing - UPT is the closest thing to a pure meritocracy we have. If things didn't work out exactly like you wanted them to, look in a mirror.

You forgot the old "I totally got screwed over" quote

Edited May 12, 2015 by fox two

[McDonut]

That's not how the cross flow has worked previously. You'd target T-38 grads who are 2-3 years into their first ops assignment and offer them a shot at IFF. No worse off than FAIPs.

Those T-38 grads are either going to be retained by their functional, or used to pay pred bills, while the FAIPs are dropping whatever FAIPs drop these days.

Take the MC-12 for example: most T-38-to-MC-12 pilots were assigned to MQ-9s, RQ-4s, JSTARS/RJs, or UPT. A few made it out to AMC. A grand total of 1 cross-flowed to 11F.

Morale of the story, AFPC has a lot of pred bills to pay before they can think about cross flowing. Plus, they want to retain their senior 11F pilots, not replace them with new blood with 2-3 years of commitment used up already.

What are FAIPs dropping these days, anyways?

[fox two]

A grand total of 1 cross-flowed to 11F.

That guy doesn't even count, his position excludes him from being a valid data point.

[TreeA10]

Agree with everything you said. What I meant to communicate is that hopefully the T-X puts to bed some of the incessant whining by people who were a little bummed on track select or assignment night and hold the grudge for an entire career.

There are 3 kinds of USAF pilots out there:

1: people who were generally happy at track/drop and have no axe to grind.

2: people who were bummed at track/drop, but got over it and bloomed where the AF planted them. Sure, over a beer they may tell you the story - no H-1s that day, not enough 38s, forced to 38s, blew a check ride or two. That being said, they usually can't imagine the past 6-19 years any other way and have made peace with their careers.

3: people who were bummed at track/drop and are insecure about it. They are the ones who introduce themselves with "I fly X-XX, it's what I wanted!" and bitch about (A) people who went down a different path or (B) the opportunities that path presents them later in life. Everyone they talk to for more than 5 mins knows their "story" and they go an entire career holding grudges against other people while failing to accept one thing - UPT is the closest thing to a pure meritocracy we have. If things didn't work out exactly like you wanted them to, look in a mirror.

Hopefully the T-X eliminates some of option 3.

This also applies to the world of commercial aviation. I've flown with a lot of civilian guys that have said "I would have flown in the AF/Navy/etc but didn't get selected because of eyes/ears/drawdown/got cheated/etc." Some don't hold a grudge, some don't like military guys. I had one civilian guy say he didn't like fighter guys in particular because of the outsized ego. So I guess it is safe to say you are going to find disgruntled pilots across the board from a variety of backgrounds.

[Azimuth]

I taught at the -135 FTU during the initial push when heavies were dropping to T-38's. Overall the T-38 students I flew with either on par or were better than the their T-1 trained counterparts. Are there exceptions to the norm? Sure.

On the flip side I know about 6-9 prior Heavy drivers, majority -135 background, that are doing just fine in the T-38A/U-2 community. Life isn't just blowjobs and ice cream.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Azimuth

[Stitch]

This also applies to the world of commercial aviation. I've flown with a lot of civilian guys that have said "I would have flown in the AF/Navy/etc but didn't get selected because of eyes/ears/drawdown/got cheated/etc." Some don't hold a grudge, some don't like military guys. I had one civilian guy say he didn't like fighter guys in particular because of the outsized ego. So I guess it is safe to say you are going to find disgruntled pilots across the board from a variety of backgrounds.

To tag on that, I’ve been told in commercial world there are some pilots who dislike pretty much everybody, not just prior military. They also can’t stand graduates of other training pipelines such as collegiate programs i.e. UND, Riddle, etc… because they didn’t “pay their dues” earning money to pay for ratings one at a time mowing lawns, grocery stores, odd-jobs, etc… then once flying they had to work nights/weekends/holidays for low pay as CFIs, freight dogs, pipe/powerline patrol, etc… if someone took a perceived “easier” route then themselves, they don’t like em’.

EDIT: Spelling.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Stitch

[dvlax40]

To tag on that, I’ve been told in commercial world there are some pilots who dislike pretty much everybody, not just prior military. They also can’t stand graduates of other training pipelines such as collegiate programs i.e. UND, Riddle, etc… because they didn’t “pay their dues” earning money to pay for ratings one at a time mowing lawns, grocery stores, odd-jobs, etc… then once flying they had to work nights/weekends/holidays for low pay as CFIs, freight dogs, pipe/powerline patrol, etc… if someone took a perceived “easier” route then themselves, they don’t like em’.

EDIT: Spelling.

And then there's the aerobats that don't say shit and do stuff 90 percent of other dudes out there never have/will do ;)

It's all about being humble and a good bro (to the whole pilot community )

[Cap-10]

What are FAIPs dropping these days, anyways?

The last four T-38 FAIPS at CBM got A-10 (x2) and F-16 (x2).

Not sure about the T-6 FAIPS.

Cap-10

[Kenny Powers]

Last years FAIP drop out of SPS had a good mix of all the fighters and some b-52s (think it was the most recent, dudes are in IFF now).

[brewskis]

The last four T-38 FAIPS at CBM got A-10 (x2) and F-16 (x2).

Not sure about the T-6 FAIPS.

Cap-10

Last year at my base its was 75% fighters.

[mp5g]

Life isn't just blowjobs and ice cream.