Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[MooseAg03]

Any chance you can hyperlink that RPA thread you mentioned (can't seem to find it). Also if anyone of the older wiser dudes have good intel on what happens after you drop RPAs from UPT that would be great. Got some studs here at Shepp asking me about it and I don't know what to tell them since I have zero SA on that situation. I would assume that the AF would screw them over after their 3 year tour in RPAs and not give them a fighter/bomber reassignment (my AF cynicism).

Also ENJJPT leadership has kept the RPA thing pretty close to the chest from current students however the new ones in processing got a brief to expect 2 dudes from each class to drop RPAs not necessarily based on how well they do in UPT. The next class to drop (next Friday July 24th) just got their dream sheets handed back to them and told to rank RPAs....

You can read my posts in the Drone thread to get my opinion on RPAs. The honest truth is they will have the biggest impact on the mission in a shorter amount of time after they become CMR in an RPA squadron. However, the reality of never ending shift work and the poor manning suck away anything positive you might feel about the mission.

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[Duck]

I have encouraged my students to evaluate what they are getting at assignment night. If they are happy with the big possibility that they may never fly a manned AC outside of ENJJPT, then I tell them go for it. I tell them to talk to the many dudes we have in the reserves who got non-vol'd into RPA service and see if that is a life they are satisfied with. If not, assignment night comes before graduation for a reason, and I tell them to faithfully serve the ADSC they got from ROTC/USAFA and part ways with the AF.

[DFRESH]

I have encouraged my students to evaluate what they are getting at assignment night. If they are happy with the big possibility that they may never fly a manned AC outside of ENJJPT, then I tell them go for it. I tell them to talk to the many dudes we have in the reserves who got non-vol'd into RPA service and see if that is a life they are satisfied with. If not, assignment night comes before graduation for a reason, and I tell them to faithfully serve the ADSC they got from ROTC/USAFA and part ways with the AF.

Are you suggesting that your studs walk prior to getting wings if they get handed an RPA at drop night? Just curious, no spears to throw.

[Duck]

No, I am doing exactly to a T what the Air Force told me to do. I'm telling them to ask the people who left that career field. I am realistic with them and tell them that when the guys in my class went UAVs they were promised a follow on and from what I hear, there is no promises this time. I am afraid the AF would crucify me publicly if I told someone to walk. Plus it's not my decision to make for them. I will not however let the Air Force lie to them or be dishonest about what they are going to do. I already know what the dudes in the reserves think about Creech and Cannon because I have had extensive talks with them about it. So at least I know that when one of my studs takes those wings at graduation they know the reality of the situation and are not getting the old AF bait and switch. Hope that clarifies.

[Snuggie]

Any chance you can hyperlink that RPA thread you mentioned (can't seem to find it). Also if anyone of the older wiser dudes have good intel on what happens after you drop RPAs from UPT that would be great. Got some studs here at Shepp asking me about it and I don't know what to tell them since I have zero SA on that situation. I would assume that the AF would screw them over after their 3 year tour in RPAs and not give them a fighter/bomber reassignment (my AF cynicism).

Also ENJJPT leadership has kept the RPA thing pretty close to the chest from current students however the new ones in processing got a brief to expect 2 dudes from each class to drop RPAs not necessarily based on how well they do in UPT. The next class to drop (next Friday July 24th) just got their dream sheets handed back to them and told to rank RPAs....

I was a UPT-D guy the last time they did this. I had a month between UPT graduation and my first training course. I went TDY en route to Randolph for the RPA basics course. A month of classroom work trying to teach the basics of the CAF. Then I went to the school house while it was still at Creech. They won't need SERE which might make moving to their training that much quicker. Depending on how quickly they can get CMRed they could be flying missions in theater within a few weeks of arriving at their squadron. I was flying my first combat mission before most of my UPT friends finished their initial training. The nuts and bolts of the training course are floating around in the various RPA threads.

My info is 5 years old now but please make sure to not treat the RPA guys like leper when the assignment drops. It was amazing to see how people were afraid to talk about it like it was some sort of communicable disease they would catch. But unlike our go around it doesn't sound like the AF is going to make any promises of a follow on assignment afterwards so any of your guys who do put a RPA down on their dream sheet should be ready to do it for their ADSC.

Edit- spelling is hard

Edited July 18, 2015 by Snuggie

[Duck]

Exactly.

[ViperStud]

Are you suggesting that your studs walk prior to getting wings if they get handed an RPA at drop night? Just curious, no spears to throw.

Honestly, is there a problem with someone who chooses that option? I can only speak for myself, but flying was a lifelong dream. I wanted something pointy-nose but went in knowing the reality - there were other options, manned options that would still allow me to fly. If I was told a few weeks before drop night that the deal had changed, and then dropped a UAV, I would have been devastated. To assess the situation, decide to SIE, then work my ass of for the remaining 3+ years of my commitment - there is no dishonor in that.

It changes things a little if they are an option going in - and for LTs already in UPT now that wasn't the case. Hell, they had finally stood up a formal pipeline to train UAV guys and long since dropped one in UPT. Also, I understand that they don't want last-place dudes almost every class - but that creates a big problem. When UPT drops are no longer primarily about merit, I have less of an issue with people bailing after drop night. Keep integrity in the process or don't complain when someone shows you the middle finger.

[DFRESH]

Bro's... I said no spears and I meant it. Just trying to gauge the pulse.

[HU&W]

No, I am doing exactly to a T what the Air Force told me to do. I'm telling them to ask the people who left that career field. I am realistic with them and tell them that when the guys in my class went UAVs they were promised a follow on and from what I hear, there is no promises this time. I am afraid the AF would crucify me publicly if I told someone to walk. Plus it's not my decision to make for them. I will not however let the Air Force lie to them or be dishonest about what they are going to do. I already know what the dudes in the reserves think about Creech and Cannon because I have had extensive talks with them about it. So at least I know that when one of my studs takes those wings at graduation they know the reality of the situation and are not getting the old AF bait and switch. Hope that clarifies.

See af.mil article below. Emphasis added.

Undergraduate pilot training graduates to RPA

As another part of the solution, about 80 UPT graduates over the next 12 months will be assigned to RPA positions for one assignment tour to help alleviate growing pressure on overtaxed RPA crews. Air Force pilot training bases are at Columbus Air Force Base, Mississippi; Laughlin AFB, Texas; Vance AFB; Oklahoma; and Sheppard AFB, Texas. The current plan is to only use the UPT pipeline for one year while the RPA-unique training pipeline increases from approximately 190 to 300 RPA pilot graduates per year. The last time the Air Force placed a UPT graduate directly into the RPA career field was 2011.

“The most critical challenge we face in this mission area is a shortage of RPA pilots and the UPT grads are the fastest way to address that shortfall without sacrificing mission capability in other platforms,” said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark A. Welsh III. “Actions we take today will allow the Air Force to continue to provide world-class, strike-ready (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) over the battlefield and enhance overall combat capability."

As part of the get-well plan, the move to place UPT graduates as RPA pilots addresses a constant demand for real-time ISR in support of combatant commander needs. Those UPT graduates selected will get the requisite RPA training for the MQ-1B or MQ-9.

"Those selected for RPA duties will serve one tour and then be placed in manned aircraft if desired after completion of that tour," Welsh said. "This will help the Air Force achieve a healthy steady state for the RPA enterprise as soon as possible."

[HeloDude]

HU&W, see my post above. Unless what the CSAF said is explicitly written into the UPT ADSC (which is verified by legal), then it's just a 'desire'. I bet a month's flight pay that it won't be in the ADSC, and there is a specific reason for this. Who would have signed an extended ADSC in hopes of getting the bonus if the ADSC said nothing about how much money you get, but the CSAF 'promised' it would be $25K/year.

Or should I also believe a politician when he 'promises' something?

[HU&W]

HU&W, see my post above. Unless what the CSAF said is explicitly written into the UPT ADSC (which is verified by legal), then it's just a 'desire'. I bet a month's flight pay that it won't be in the ADSC, and there is a specific reason for this. Who would have signed an extended ADSC in hopes of getting the bonus if the ADSC said nothing about how much money you get, but the CSAF 'promised' it would be $25K/year.

Or should I also believe a politician when he 'promises' something?

All valid points. My only counter would be that all of the UPT-directs from the last round are back in manned aircraft, unless they volunteered to stay, and the promise wasn't written into their ADSC's either.

[Day Man]

My info is 5 years old now but please make sure to not treat the RPA guys like leopards when the assignment drops.

I think the word you're looking for is leper.

[HeloDude]

All valid points. My only counter would be that all of the UPT-directs from the last round are back in manned aircraft, unless they volunteered to stay, and the promise wasn't written into their ADSC's either.

It's better to be lucky than good. I'm not saying the AF won't fulfill their 'promise', what I'm saying is that there is no legal requirement for them to do so. And I get why: Who knows what the military/ops tempo/CSAF will be like in 3-4 years? I sure as hell don't, thus I understand what the CSAF wants to do...but what he has to do will always trump what wants to do, and I don't blame him in that regard.

If enough cadets/Lt's selected for UPT demanded his promise be written in the ADSC, then potential changes could be made. Or perhaps if those in UPT dropped an RPA wanted an adjustment to their ADSC with similar verbiage and if not they SIE. Make the AF put their money where their mouth is. Right now it's just a gamble, like most other things in the military. The young guys just need to know the difference between a promise and legal sense.

[Razor666]

Appreciate all the good info brothers. I'll be sure to pass along to my studs here. They are pretty worried about the situation and I feel for them. They are trying to figure out if they can eventually just cross commission and fly for another branch if it came down to it later in the game just so they can get in a cockpit and rack up their hours for future jobs. And or separating from the AF when the time comes then trying to get picked up in some Guard/Reserve unit (fighter unit) and getting sent to IFF and B Course since they are already Fighter/FAIP Qual'd and flew the T-38 over here. Seems pretty valid since most of these guys will be in their late twenties to early thirties if it came down to it and I have current guard dudes going through UPT right now for a unit at like 30 year old LTs.

As for how they are picking the RPAs and not necessarily entirely based on "merit" and picking the bottom dudes. Who knows? We are talking about an Air Force that thought a quartile system for picking missile officers from Academy/ROTC was a great idea since they were tired of getting the bottom of the barrel in that AFSC and an Air Force that thinks it's cost effective to send dudes to UPT to fly drones when they can make it an enlisted career field, etc. But I digress and that's not a conversation for here. I however have seen some pretty sketch processes in who gets what drop in UPT when it comes down to Flt Comm ranking and that is not merit based at all so I'm feeling a similar process for RPAs. I'll be sure to post the drop next Friday and let you guys know what the studs who might drop RPAs tell me about what higher ups have "promised" or "told" them about it.

[MooseAg03]

Also, the T-38 track UPT direct dudes were not allowed to be sent to fighters as their manned aircraft follow ons. That meant either heavies or bombers, and I know that's why at least several where I'm from chose to stay in RPAs.

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[Majestik Møøse]

Also, the T-38 track UPT direct dudes were not allowed to be sent to fighters as their manned aircraft follow ons. That meant either heavies or bombers, and I know that's why at least several where I'm from chose to stay in RPAs.

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"If I can't go to a fighter, I'd rather stay in RPAs than fly some heavy jet! I am 100% sure I'll never want to fly for the airlines!"

[bbj77]

Why don't they just save us all a waste of time and money training these students at UPT phase 3 and take the two bottom students out of the T-6 phase and track them over to UAVs? I too don't know how they can say that they won't automatically pick the bottom two out of phase 3. How is that fair for anyone? Why work hard to pass check rides and daily rides if they won't assign you based on ranking?

[Karl Hungus]

Also, the T-38 track UPT direct dudes were not allowed to be sent to fighters as their manned aircraft follow ons. That meant either heavies or bombers, and I know that's why at least several where I'm from chose to stay in RPAs.

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The ones who came to my community after their UPT-D tour tended to suck. Significantly behind their peers in overall airmanship, SA, etc, and way behind in terms of upgrades vice others in their year group.

Not all, of course, but it was a noticeable trend.

[Jaded]

You mean, like a FAIP?

I keed, I keed. But seriously.

[ViperStud]

The ones who came to my community after their UPT-D tour tended to suck. Significantly behind their peers in overall airmanship, SA, etc, and way behind in terms of upgrades vice others in their year group.

Serious question - is that the norm? Obv a lot of people have done this if the original batch are flying. Good for them but how does it work for their respective communities? Are they "leopards?"

Edited July 19, 2015 by ViperStud

[Champ Kind]

The ones who came to my community after their UPT-D tour tended to suck. Significantly behind their peers in overall airmanship, SA, etc, and way behind in terms of upgrades vice others in their year group.

Not all, of course, but it was a noticeable trend.

Same in mine. I can only name one that I would call "above average." I know the FAIPs remark was a joke, but there really is no comparison. Most FAIPs I've seen are able to hop on the treadmill with accelerated upgrades to eventually catch up to their peers. UPT-D RPA guys... not so much.

[FUEL]

I'm just spitballing here, but I think there may be a few considerations. A FAIP is still doing basic AF airmanship and teaching it (fundamentals of flying, pubs, comms, etc). Even with 4 years of heavy flying and an MC-12 mixed in there, I'm already losing some of those things. There are flghts, even months were some units don't even talk on a radio. For example, unless you do LR, you aren't going to have checked a real set of aircraft forms or beat up the traffic pattern; you take an IRC, but you'll never look at the -217 and remember how to hold in ICAO; I bet everyone here has been on 6-8 hr flights where you didn't even change the nav mission and just stared at the same dirt compound as yesterday. Some RPA guys might get really good in an airstack, relaying comms, and helping plan weapons effects; but there aren't a lot of follow on platforms that's going to help out unless you were a -38 guy going to a B-1 or a Toner guy that gets a rare AFSOC assignment. My advice, if you drop an RPA save up for an RV-4, split it with your buds and keep flying in normal airspace. If nothing else go do Launch and Recovery.

[ThreeHoler]

Are they leopards?

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[xcraftllc]

Why don't they just save us all a waste of time and money training these students at UPT phase 3 and take the two bottom students out of the T-6 phase and track them over to UAVs? I too don't know how they can say that they won't automatically pick the bottom two out of phase 3. How is that fair for anyone? Why work hard to pass check rides and daily rides if they won't assign you based on ranking?

Basically your questions and points are exactly why this whole idea is terrible. It is indeed a waste of money, and there really is no way to do it right.

Frankly the brass just isn't thinking or listening and/or has some other political reasons for this. Some RPA operators may be qualified as pilots but operating an RPA is not piloting, especially considering the kind of flying RPAs do. Like FUEL was saying, it really makes a difference what kind of flying you're doing. Us "manned" aircraft guys (including FAIPs) still have to routinely train in all kinds of piloting that drones just don't do. Not only is it a waste to take people out of their trained pilot status and put them into generously and politicaly titled Remotely "Piloted" Aircraft positions, its just a bad idea in general, functionally speaking.

If the AF was serious about getting these guys back into manned positions, they'd give them regular proficiency in manned aircraft, and although that would be expensive, there would still be a return on investment when they went back to a manned position because of their proficiency levels. Still this would be very expensive and it would certainly be better to have Drone-specific guys from the ground up who just stay in the career. Similarly with the whole TAMI 21 thing; (if I'm not mistaken), the AF didn't even provide a single T-38 for those guys to maintain basic skills. Imagine trying to zoom through federal airspace in a single seat fighter after years of automated orbits around a tent if Afghanistan.

Drones need to be a separate track, that's it.

Edited July 19, 2015 by xcraftllc

[Herk Driver]

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

You know, the leopard. The epitome of stealth. Its very name brings mental pictures of this great spotted cat crouched on a tree limb awaiting the approach of a gazelle, or of a sleek, spotted body slipping silently through the dry savanna grass. (Borrowed from a well-known zoo website) Edited July 19, 2015 by Herk Driver