Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[Razor666]

So let's play this out based on what we know for the best case scenario. Stud drops RPAs from UPT. Graduates and now has a service commitment of 10 years because of Wings. He goes over to his RPA squadron and does his 3 year tour (best case scenario more likely he gets nonvol'd to do more). He finally gets his manned aircraft assignment (most likely a less than desirable aircraft and not fighter type even if he was T-38 Fighter/FAIP qual'd). He is 3 years behind his peers in that MWS and is probably not upgrading on the Letter of X's in a timely rate because he isn't one of the new young guys. Maybe he finally gets on the Letter of X's for things so he is not completely new and does not look like a giant sack of shit on his Majors board compared to his peers who are IPs in their MWS since they had three more years experience. Our RPA direct out of UPT friend can kiss Weapons School chances or Test Pilot chances out the window. Perhaps maybe he doesn't even have the hours to go over to the airlines after this situation.

Now towards more reality and not best case. The RPA direct guy probably does 5 years min in the RPA gig. The Air Force doesn't even guarantee you a manned cockpit but let's say our RPA stud is lucky and gets his ass in some type of seat 5 years later. The rest of the above situation still plays out. Still owes a 10 year commitment.

Now how about this....Stud gets RPAs on drop night. Realizes he has not graduated UPT yet and therefore has not incurred his 10 year commitment yet but knows his drop because drop is a month before graduation. If this stud SIE (self induced elimination) he does not owe 10 years now but 5 years (only 3 more after UPT really) and does not have the raw deal of flying drones. Now this guy who SIE can possibly go to an Army or Navy Guard/Reserve unit and get hired by them and sent to their flight school to actually fly. Pretty sure you can do that even if you SIE from the Air Force. (anyone know if that is actually true if you are eligible for a formal flying training with another branch if you SIE from the Air Force?) However if the stud SIE'd that late in the game after drop night, Big Blue would probably make him pay for all the money spent on him for training back since they would probably put 2 and 2 together and see he is probably SIEing because he got drones.

Dudes this is no kidding the discussion some older grey beards are having with some of my younger LT studs. IMO, it really does seem like if you are a UPT stud who gets sent to RPAs, you have a death sentence as a military aviator in terms of hours, Letter of X's, promotion opportunities, airline flying compared to your year group peers. Even if you tried to SIE because of the raw drone deal, they would make you pay all the money back for training most likely.

Still the chances are pretty low for a stud to get RPAs out of pilot training. I mean, there are at least 600 student pilots minimum at all the bases combined for the current year and they need 80 RPA guys, you guys can do the math behind the statistics of getting the shit sandwich. Even so, that memo posted by the Wing King at XL said that Columbus, Laughlin and Vance are the ones that are looking to drop RPAs and out of the T-1 track as well (no mention of T-38 track). Who knows, we will know more Friday with this next drop and the picture will get clearer then.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Razor666

[RTB]

IMO, it really does seem like if you are a UPT stud who gets sent to RPAs, you have a death sentence as a military aviator in terms of hours, Letter of X's, promotion opportunities, airline flying compared to your year group peers.

Let me start by saying I am in no way advocating for this RPA drop out of UPT - I think it's a travesty that it's happening again and a total waste of time and money. That said, I don't think it's the end of the world for their careers, assuming they get back to a manned aircraft in 3-4 years. I speak from experience. I was late rated because I was too dumb in college to get a pilot slot. I didn't get picked up for pilot training until I was almost a Captain - pinned on during Tweets. So I was a similar age when I got to my first squadron. Went on to a decent fighter career (silence HossHarris and Danny Noonan!) as an IP/EP and eventually a squadron commander. And I'm not a unique case, I know plenty of dudes with similar experiences. For these poor bastards who get an RPA on drop night, I think their success totally depends on what they do, and how good their attitude is, when they get to their manned squadron.

Edited July 19, 2015 by RTB

[Herk Driver]

Let me start by saying I am in no way advocating for this RPA drop out of UPT - I think it's a travesty that it's happening again and a total waste of time and money. That said, I don't think it's the end of the world for their careers, assuming they get back to a manned aircraft in 3-4 years. I speak from experience. I was late rated because I was too dumb in college to get a pilot slot. I didn't get picked up for pilot training until I was almost a Captain - pinned on during Tweets. So I was a similar age when I got to my first squadron. Went on to a decent fighter career (silence HossHarris and Danny Noonan!) as an IP/EP and eventually a squadron commander. And I'm not a unique case, I know plenty of dudes with similar experiences. For these poor bastards who get an RPA on drop night, I think their success totally depends on what they do, and how good their attitude is, when they get to their manned squadron.

Agreed. I was late rated as well. I didn't go to UPT until I was a Capt and didn't get to my first flying assignment until I had 6.5 years under my belt. Upgraded ahead of several dudes to AC, IP, EP. Was a flying Sq/CC and am currently a flying Group/CC. It's not all rainbows and sunshine but this hyperbole about the sky falling is over the top.

This in no way makes UPT direct RPA a good idea.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Herk Driver

[Razor666]

Let me start by saying I am in no way advocating for this RPA drop out of UPT - I think it's a travesty that it's happening again and a total waste of time and money. That said, I don't think it's the end of the world for their careers, assuming they get back to a manned aircraft in 3-4 years. I speak from experience. I was late rated because I was too dumb in college to get a pilot slot. I didn't get picked up for pilot training until I was almost a Captain - pinned on during Tweets. So I was a similar age when I got to my first squadron. Went on to a decent fighter career (silence HossHarris and Danny Noonan!) as an IP/EP and eventually a squadron commander. And I'm not a unique case, I know plenty of dudes with similar experiences. For these poor bastards who get an RPA on drop night, I think their success totally depends on what they do, and how good their attitude is, when they get to their manned squadron.

We for sure need to get more stories like this out here because the sentiment around the j-lop machine is not this at all and dudes (Maj and Lt Cols) are quoting that they "do not know a dude from the RPA situation that got a fighter/good deal". The only thing is that we are making the big assumption that they get manned after their tour and I for sure hope and pray that they do because that is not fair to those guys. However, I have never heard of a 38 Fighter/FAIP quald dude who got RPAs back in the 09 times getting assigned to a single seat. However, they did get a manned aircraft. Any more legit success stories I can tell my studs would be appreciated because they for sure feel the sky is falling and I'm not educated on the subject enough to tell them its going to be okay.

[Herkasaurus]

Big Blue would probably make him pay for all the money spent on him for training back since they would probably put 2 and 2 together and see he is probably SIEing because he got drones.

I didn't know big blue could make you pay it back. Any UPT IPs out there know the ins and outs of the contract? I knew a guy who SIE'd out of Corpus 1 month before winging and he didn't pay anything back. They cross trained him and he kept a 5yr commitment.

[Jughead]

However if the stud SIE'd that late in the game after drop night, Big Blue would probably make him pay for all the money spent on him for training back since they would probably put 2 and 2 together and see he is probably SIEing because he got drones.

How is that? Let me admit up front that it's been many moons since I went through UPT--but, the SIE process was always "automatic," since policy is (was?) that one must be a volunteer for any rated career field. Prior to graduation (i.e., getting winged / becoming rated), a UPT student can withdraw that volunteer status--thereby invoking the SIE process.

Has the policy changed?

EDIT:

Edited July 19, 2015 by Jughead

[Razor666]

Not sure about the policy. The last three studs I saw that SIE (all from the same class mind you), just got reclassed. I just wouldn't be really shocked if somehow the AF figured out a way to make someone pay some type of money back (education/training) for something like that. I mean I for sure know dudes who had to pay back the AF for their school since they quit USAFA early (but that is entirely different from UPT obviously).

[RTB]

We for sure need to get more stories like this out here because the sentiment around the j-lop machine is not this at all and dudes (Maj and Lt Cols) are quoting that they "do not know a dude from the RPA situation that got a fighter/good deal". The only thing is that we are making the big assumption that they get manned after their tour and I for sure hope and pray that they do because that is not fair to those guys. However, I have never heard of a 38 Fighter/FAIP quald dude who got RPAs back in the 09 times getting assigned to a single seat. However, they did get a manned aircraft. Any more legit success stories I can tell my studs would be appreciated because they for sure feel the sky is falling and I'm not educated on the subject enough to tell them its going to be okay.

Just to be clear, I was not an RPA dude before I went to UPT. Didn't exist back then AFAIK. Not sure if that was misunderstood or not. My point is simply that you can be late in rank to your first squadron by several years and still do well as long as you show up with a good attitude. Herk Driver and I are not anomalies. I know several other guys who also went on to at least flying Sq/CC (and some beyond that) after showing up as a Capt to their first flying squadron.

[Herk Driver]

Not sure about the policy. The last three studs I saw that SIE (all from the same class mind you), just got reclassed. I just wouldn't be really shocked if somehow the AF figured out a way to make someone pay some type of money back (education/training) for something like that. I mean I for sure know dudes who had to pay back the AF for their school since they quit USAFA early (but that is entirely different from UPT obviously).

My info may be dated but money for training payback does not exist ( at least it did not exist in 2011). Had a guy who still had multiple years of UPT ADSC who wanted out. MAJCOM/CV tried hard to force him to pay back money for the training and finally figured out that it could not be done. Again this was several years ago but...

[Craftsman]

We for sure need to get more stories like this out here because the sentiment around the j-lop machine is not this at all and dudes (Maj and Lt Cols) are quoting that they "do not know a dude from the RPA situation that got a fighter/good deal". The only thing is that we are making the big assumption that they get manned after their tour and I for sure hope and pray that they do because that is not fair to those guys. However, I have never heard of a 38 Fighter/FAIP quald dude who got RPAs back in the 09 times getting assigned to a single seat. However, they did get a manned aircraft. Any more legit success stories I can tell my studs would be appreciated because they for sure feel the sky is falling and I'm not educated on the subject enough to tell them its going to be okay.

Just to throw my two cents. I am one of those dudes that got rpa's back in 09-11 fiscal years. Fighters were never going to happen they said that day one. Ok whatever but you could still get a jet. Most 98% got there first choice of plane and location. Some got screwed, again and some of that was due to attitude in the sq not hacking the mish, tactically DNIFing. However, plenty of dudes are upgrading to AC quickly. Although that does depend on airframe and how hard that guy works. Plenty of guys have done fine out of there respective school houses I know plenty that even DG'd out of their FTU's. And many more that are going to Maj board with no problem getting a DP.

A lot of UPT-D were coming out of the RPA world with a Q code and at least a K code in an mws.

More than anything it depends on your attitude and want to push through the queep and perform in your manned aircraft.

Edit: bringing the RPA drops back to UPT is horse shit!

[Duck]

It all comes down to how much do you trust the Air Force, fellas.

[xcraftllc]

One of the biggest things that can be gained from the very informed discussion in this thread is; even those who can lend some perspective and experience on how this can still work out totally think the idea is bad, that's when you know this needs to not happen. Especially considering that this is just a temporary patch and not an actual solution.

[Azimuth]

Just to throw my two cents. I am one of those dudes that got rpa's back in 09-11 fiscal years. Fighters were never going to happen they said that day one. Ok whatever but you could still get a jet. Most 98% got there first choice of plane and location. Some got screwed, again and some of that was due to attitude in the sq not hacking the mish, tactically DNIFing. However, plenty of dudes are upgrading to AC quickly. Although that does depend on airframe and how hard that guy works. Plenty of guys have done fine out of there respective school houses I know plenty that even DG'd out of their FTU's. And many more that are going to Maj board with no problem getting a DP.

A lot of UPT-D were coming out of the RPA world with a Q code and at least a K code in an mws.

More than anything it depends on your attitude and want to push through the queep and perform in your manned aircraft.

Edit: bringing the RPA drops back to UPT is horse shit!

Upgrading to AC quickly? None of their hours count towards upgrade in their new MDS, they are mid level Capt's who are brand new Copilots in my community.

[Duck]

That's a valid point Azimuth. I didn't think of that. Doesn't it take like 1000 hours total time to be an AC?

[raimius]

That's a valid point Azimuth. I didn't think of that. Doesn't it take like 1000 hours total time to be an AC?

Depends on the airframe. UH-1N mins are 300hrs.

[quicksilver88]

Why such the small classes at Laughlin?

That was active duty only. Class was split in half due to sim instructor availability and MX issues. Had a ghost class roll through as well.

[Razor666]

1) you keep mentioning a T-38 Fighter/FAIP "qual." Did something change at UPT where students get a form 8 out of T-38s?

2) For almost two decades I've heard people say the cost of UPT is above $1M per student. (Can anyone confirm the actual cost? ). How do you figure "big blue" would recoup that money? Do you know many 2Lts millionaires?

When students put in their dream sheets at the bottom it says for their assigned IP to mark whether or not they should be Fighter/FAIP qualified. Below that is the same container for their Flt Comm to mark answering the same question. Out of the 100+ sheets I've laid eyes on, only one was ever not recommended for Fighter/FAIP.

For the second question easily well over a million dollars. Never met a 2LT millionaire but the Air Force has made other people pay back training for circumstances of when dudes just quit some type of training. Example would be the Academy where guys needed to pay back the roughly 400,000 for that. I know of no dude that has 400,000 laying around unless he's a grey beard.

[Longhorn15]

There is a world of difference between quitting at the Academy and quitting UPT. Now for some facts:

If you quit the Academy, you fall under AFI 36-3504 para 16, and you are liable to either serve your ADSC enlisted or pay back your education expenses.

If you quit UPT, you never have a flying ADSC. There is even a specific note in AFI 36-2107 Table 1.1 note 2 that says you'll have either a 2 year ADSC or the ADSC for the program you quit, whichever is less.

There is another section in 36-2107 2.19.1 that talks recoupment of bonus and incentive pays for non-completion of the associated ADSC, but since you never get an ADSC if you quit UPT, it doesn't apply.

I personally saw one person SIE over their aircraft drop (non-RPA) in 2009 and another over their track select in 2004. They were separated with no attempt at recoupment of any costs.

[dream big]

Agreed. I was late rated as well. I didn't go to UPT until I was a Capt and didn't get to my first flying assignment until I had 6.5 years under my belt. Upgraded ahead of several dudes to AC, IP, EP. Was a flying Sq/CC and am currently a flying Group/CC. It's not all rainbows and sunshine but this hyperbole about the sky falling is over the top.

This in no way makes UPT direct RPA a good idea.

Which base?

...I kid I kid!

[Egghead]

When students put in their dream sheets at the bottom it says for their assigned IP to mark whether or not they should be Fighter/FAIP qualified. Below that is the same container for their Flt Comm to mark answering the same question. Out of the 100+ sheets I've laid eyes on, only one was ever not recommended for Fighter/FAIP.

For the second question easily well over a million dollars. Never met a 2LT millionaire but the Air Force has made other people pay back training for circumstances of when dudes just quit some type of training. Example would be the Academy where guys needed to pay back the roughly 400,000 for that. I know of no dude that has 400,000 laying around unless he's a grey beard.

Academy recoupment is for education costs. The $400K number is a clever pat-on-the-back number for high school students to quote that is pretty much based on the cost to run the USAFA base (including the 10th ABW) divided by the number of cadets. The actual number is closer to $120-140K for education recoupment.

Several 2009 USAFA grads ended up self-eliminating in UPT. The "workaround" to make them pay was to force them to separate. They couldn't recoup the UPT training cost, but they could get the pro-rated USAFA commitment back. One of my best friends got slapped with a $120K bill from the gov't. It got even more shady. The gov't sold the debt for an unknown amount to a private debt collector. The debt got classified as both education debt AND gov't debt which means that A) he couldn't get rid of it in bankruptcy and B) they can garnish wages without a judge's order. As of today, he has a decent job and he is happy. But his wife has to keep her finances separate from him as much as possible since his credit is trash now from the gov't debt. Trying to get anything that needs decent credit is not possible for him alone without exorbitant fees.

[Jaded]

Another reason to go ROTC!

[guineapigfury]

Another reason to go ROTC!

Or OTS. Shake and Bake!

[Herk Driver]

Which base?

...I kid I kid!

Not yours.

[tac airlifter]

Not yours.

Oops, my fat fingers and tiny iPhone accidentally down voted your post.

[Stitch]

If you quit the Academy, you fall under AFI 36-3504 para 16, and you are liable to either serve your ADSC enlisted or pay back your education expenses.

Question: A person in that situation, do they have to go through Enlisted Basic Training at Lackland or do they just ship em off to Tech School as an Airman Basic and then their their first base?