Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[di1630]

Not looking for detailed specifics...more of a broad overview of why the climate is poor.

[10percenttruth]

On the subject of ENJJPT/Sheppard from a dude that graduated from there and is now there doing the whole flying thing, the comments above are pretty spot on. The place has just turned into a giant political circle J that likes to point out that it's an "international" program and "NATO" based and cares more about how it looks and acts politically among its partners than it actually cares about the training. Hell, the place sweeps up problems underneath the rug all the time to save face! A German Squad CC just got fired on the T-6 side of things after being at the helm for at most four months. The brass said he left because of personal reasons but the middle management has whispered behind the scenes saying the dude got canned for some seriously heinous stuff. On the T-6 side the fighter guys and heavy guys get along pretty well and develop a good atmosphere for the studs and paints a pretty good picture that there is more to the Air Force then being a Fighter/FAIP/Bomber guy. The 38 side is a lot different. Obviously a lot more focused on the Fighter side but I would argue to the point where they definitely put down and make fun of the "herbivores" as being lesser pilots and doing less of the mission. Hell, they even make fun of flying bombers and spec ops! Dudes that are doing the mission as we speak!  Now take that attitude as a student and roll that into drop night when you made it to the point of receiving an aircraft assignment from one of the hardest pilot training programs in the world and do not happen to get a fighter or FAIP because as well all know here, luck and timing are everything. That dude now feels a little bit less of themselves because the IPs they talked to and flew with in the past took a dump all over the aircraft that stud dropped. And as for the top brass here.....golly. I'll just let the combat hours and TV talk show host speak for themselves....

I agree that attitude is utter bullshit from IPs, but it's not exclusive to SPS or -38s, unfortunately. Hell, just sit in on any assignment night at any UPT base & wait for a guy to drop a bomber or JSTARS, the room gets quiet & everyone looks at the dude like he just got diagnosed with stage 4 ass cancer. It's fucked up & a really great way to send dudes who just did something that 99.9% of the population could never do off on the rest of their careers. God knows i'd rather have to retrain a ton of salty copilots that are bitter about the pill fed to them by UPT than a batch of folks excited about the mission. /s

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

59 minutes ago, 10percenttruth said:

I agree that attitude is utter bullshit from IPs, but it's not exclusive to SPS or -38s, unfortunately. Hell, just sit in on any assignment night at any UPT base & wait for a guy to drop a bomber or JSTARS, the room gets quiet & everyone looks at the dude like he just got diagnosed with stage 4 ass cancer. It's fucked up & a really great way to send dudes who just did something that 99.9% of the population could never do off on the rest of their careers. God knows i'd rather have to retrain a ton of salty copilots that are bitter about the pill fed to them by UPT than a batch of folks excited about the mission. /s

Spot on.  I've had guys who had E-3 and E-8 as their number one choice and get treated as you describe above.  I hate the student scuttlebutt about what is a good or bad assignment, but even worse is when that perception is fed by IPs.  It's one thing for some good natured shit slinging between communities, but for an IP to genuinely put down the mission of another airframe that he/she is completely unfamiliar with is a major foul-- ESPECIALLY when it's a FAIP doing it.  

[Mark1]

3 hours ago, 10percenttruth said:

It's fucked up & a really great way to send dudes who just did something that 99.9% of the population could never do off on the rest of their careers.

Disparaging 99.9% of the population in the same breath that you attempt to point out the problems behind disparaging particular sectors of military aviation.  Nice.

I've seen some ungodly incompetent and dangerous people make it through the program.  And it wasn't like they flew under the radar and nobody noticed.  Everybody knew they were incompetent and dangerous, and yet they graduated.  The reason?  Because the standards aren't as high as people on the qualified side of the line like to represent in order to inflate their own self-worth.  You hang out with Brabus too often.

[brabus]

You hang out with Brabus too often.

I don't follow.

[eindecker]

5 hours ago, 10percenttruth said:

Hell, just sit in on any assignment night at any UPT base & wait for a guy to drop a bomber or JSTARS, the room gets quiet & everyone looks at the dude like he just got diagnosed with stage 4 ass cancer.

 

4 hours ago, Napoleon_Tanerite said:

Spot on.  I've had guys who had E-3 and E-8 as their number one choice and get treated as you describe above.  I hate the student scuttlebutt about what is a good or bad assignment, but even worse is when that perception is fed by IPs.

I think this just has to do with people's perceptions and human nature in general.  People bag on what they don't know and for the most part, it's very easy to do. As an ROTC cadet, my commander was an ABM and I used to give him an ungodly amount of shit about how stupid I thought the AWACS and JSTARS were.  It was all in good fun, but a part of me was serious.  It was the last plane I wanted to fly.  Fast forward 2 years and I put AWACS #1 on my dream sheet.  I laugh at myself now, but looking back I didn't know what I didn't know, which was why I was more than happy to talk trash.  I think it's the same for IPs as well as students, no matter where you are.

At drop night I know exactly what 10percenttruth & Napoleon_Tanerite are talking about.  When my slide came up, the room dropped a few decibels.  Everyone was caught off guard that I was so pumped.  I had the best group of dudes for a UPT class and they understood what I'd wanted, but my T38 buddies were definitely confused.  One of my old T6 IPs, who'd missed all of it, even came up to me afterward and said he was sorry.  He thought I deserved better.  Of course, when I told him I'd wanted it, I got the uncanny feeling he didn't believe me.

I think it boils down to understanding what other people do.  When we were racking and stacking our choices, students and IPs alike made all the standard rounds about how ugly the plane looked or how I'd just be sittin' on my ass burnin' holes in the sky, but honestly, no one even knew anything about it, including me. The only person that had even ever flew an AWACS on the base was my student SQ/CC.  I went and talked to him for a few hours about it and I was sold.  I walked out, erased my whole paper and put the E3 at the top.  It was one of the best decisions I ever made.  Yeah, it's old, there are the bad times when I think it's a piece of crap, but my favorite part of the day is when I'm walking to the bus. I look back and think, man I just hand-flew that big ol' b*tch from 15k' through all kinds of weather and shit.  It's awesome.  I get to fly the snot out of the jet, day after day.  I love the 707.  I think the dome is sexy AF.  The mission is interesting.  I'm stoked.

I came from Columbus only a couple of years ago and I definitely had one of the best UPT experiences I think anyone could have, so there are still great things to say about the program.  I have a good college friend who graduated from Sheppard though, a year ahead of me; he absolutely loves flying Eagles, but we've talked about how he thinks it was a big disservice to not expose students to other airframes.  I don't want to speak for him, but he said it was fighters or nothing.  If you thought about flying something else or wanted to explore other options, you ran the risk of being ostracized or thought of as a lesser pilot.  I believe the issue often plays both sides of the table.  The best experiences, with what little background I have, have always been with open-minded IPs, talking to as equally open-minded students.  The IP sharing his background without judgement and the student willing to ignore his shit-talking bros and search out gray beards from any and all airframes. I'm not an IP, but as a stud, it's easier said than done, which is unfortunate.  Hence, the scuttlebutts. 

I'm just a co and again, I don't know what I don't know.  Maybe some day I'll see things differently, but these are my thoughts.

[hispeed7721]

As an ROTC cadet, my commander was an ABM and I used to give him an ungodly amount of shit

I don't disagree with with rest of what you said, but this made me literally laugh out loud.

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[10percenttruth]

You hang out with Brabus too often.

I don't follow either

[ViperStud]

Anyone who thinks that only the "top 1%" could get through UPT is seriously insecure.  I spent 2 years teaching 38s recently before my Viper RTB and I was amazed at how difficult it was to wash people out. Combine that with the zero control that CCs have over drops and we sent plenty of LTs to fighters that were not strong swimmers. We saw several FTU washouts and a few that surprised us after they got their wings. BL - it doesn't take top talent to get wings. 

[Duck]

It is near impossible at Sheppard to wash out.

[di1630]

None of societies idiots make it thru UPT.

Also, UPT performance doesn't always equal follow-on performance. I saw dudes who barely got a fighter 5 years ago, now WIC grads and I've seen their DG peers flail.

That being said, let's face it, if you can stay safe flying a T-38 you can most likely stay safe in about anything out there (stick and rudder wise). Just a fact. Technology has negated the "need" for a lot of once necessary skills that T-38s taught (and still do). I wish it were still a low level ingress, BFM and 30 pop rip 6 world but it's not. A retarded monkey can drop a jdam.

I too was horrified once at guys we sent out to fighters because that's all the drop had. But most did fine. Not superstars, but safe and able to do their mission.

[hispeed7721]

None of societies idiots make it thru UPT.

Not too sure about this one...

Although my sarcasm detector might be inop

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[Jumpseat18]

39 minutes ago, di1630 said:

A retarded monkey can drop a jdam.

Dammit Randy Quaid, for putting the idea in their head...

 

[Restless]

4 hours ago, di1630 said:

Also, UPT performance doesn't always equal follow-on performance. I saw dudes who barely got a fighter 5 years ago, now WIC grads and I've seen their DG peers flail.

7 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Anyone who thinks that only the "top 1%" could get through UPT is seriously insecure.  I spent 2 years teaching 38s recently before my Viper RTB and I was amazed at how difficult it was to wash people out. Combine that with the zero control that CCs have over drops and we sent plenty of LTs to fighters that were not strong swimmers. We saw several FTU washouts and a few that surprised us after they got their wings. BL - it doesn't take top talent to get wings. 

From what you both have said it sounds like just anything else in this world. If I understand the points you both made; its like people trying to get into a particular college or colleges. Said college(s) don't just accept the top of the top, they accept based on various attributes....race, gender, credentials, money, legacy...to achieve a certain criteria. 

 

[di1630]

None of societies idiots make it thru UPT.

Not too sure about this one...

Although my sarcasm detector might be inop

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Let me clarify: in my days of UPT instruction, I never saw a person who would be considered "below societal average" make it thru UPT.

I did see some social retards thanks to the USAFA but ROTC produced some also, just at a lower rate.

We washed very few studs out overall...usually T-6s did a good job screening for the 38 side. A few exceptions.

There was one girl who had no business being in 38s but her T-6 ip talked her into it. We could have washed her, some die-hards would argue we should have. She was safe but well below avg in performance and had no business in a fighter type, she knew it, but had a great attitude and just wanted to fly. We lowered the 38 form stds significantly and lined up a non tactical jet super early. She did fine in inav and probably would have been above avg in the "other" jet but admittedly did not meet 38 course stds. We graduated her and she did great in her follow-on.

Just saying, UPT is not a one-size fits all airframes training programs and judgment is required. T-38 washout rates should be low nowadays especially 38s with universal assignability. Flt/cc's need to make sure the AF is getting a solid match to pilot/aircraft compatibility.

[HossHarris]

The "can we" or "can't we" wash folks out of upt who need to be washed out pendulum swings. Usually directly in correlation with perceived (or actual) pilot shortages.

[10percenttruth]

I feel like folks are glomming onto the wrong part of my post. The "99.9%" was a turn of phrase & had nothing to do with the overall point. I wasn't trying to sound elitist. UPT isn't easy, and it's an accomplishment worth being proud of. To undermine that accomplishment by sending a new grad off on a path he feels ashamed or embarrassed of is a huge disservice.

[bobbylight]

Vance 16-03 

T-38:

A-10 ANG 

F-15 

F-16 x 2

C-130J

C-17

T-1: 

C-17 

MC-130 x 2

HC-130

U-28

CV-22 

RC-135 

KC-135 

MQ-9 x 2

KC-135 x 3 ANG

 

Awesome drop! 5 spec ops planes for the T-1 side.

[Dudemanbro]

CBM 16-04

T38s:

3x F16 to Luke

1x T 38faip (was faked out with a B52)

 

T1:

2x MQ9

1xMC130 to Cannon

1xU28 to Hurlburt 

1xkc135

1xE3 to tinker

1xT1 faip

Alot of C17 guard and reserve guys

1xC17 to McChord  

 

Mightve been another c17

On 10/23/2015 at 7:50 AM, skinny said:

 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Deano 2.0

[PushItUp]

VN 16-04 Active

T-38:

F-16 x 2 (Tucson, Luke)

F-15C

T-6 FAIP

 

T-1:

MQ-9 x 2

U-28 x 2 Hurlburt Field

KC-135 x 2 McConnell

C-17 x 2 McChord

MC-130J Cannon

RC-135 Offutt

T-1 FAIP

This is purely from memory, there may have been another MC-130 or J model.

Edited January 12, 2016 by PushItUp
Forgot a jet

[PushItUp]

XL 16-04 

T-38:

F-22

F-15E x 2

F-16

T-38 FAIP

B-52

[Day Man]

On 1/9/2016 at 2:03 AM, Deano 2.0 said:

CBM 16-04

T38s:

3x F16 to Luke

1x T 38faip who was faked out with a B52 early on.

 

T1:

2x MQ9

1xMC130 to canon

1xU28 to Hurlburt 

1xkc135

1xE3 to tinker

1xT1 faip

Alot of C17 guard and reserve guys

1xC17 to McCord  

 

Mightve been another c17

Holy shit, please tell me you're not active duty...

[cloud]

EN 16-03

 

US:

F-15E

F-16x5

F-16 ANG

A-10

CV-22

T-6 FAIP

C-17x2

C-130J

 

Germany:

Eurofighter

Tornadox3

 

Netherlands:

F-16x2

 

Turkey:

F-16x2

[PK...]

RUCKER 16-03

1 x HH-60G

1 x UH-1N

 

RUCKER 16-04

3 x HH-60G

2 x UH-1N

 

---

PK...

[sqwatch]

 Fast forward 2 years and I put AWACS #1 on my dream sheet.