Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[nsplayr]

^exactly

The bigger the pay delta between AD and the equilavelent civilian job, the harder it is to keep folks. There's certainly a gap between a senior Captian and a civilian RPA gig, but the gap is > 2x bigger if that RPA pilot is a Staff instead. 

Just look at enlisted TSOs on AD...I don't know how we retain a single one beyond their initial commitment. The pay they can command as a contractor is orders of magnitude higher, and perversely some end up deploying less as a contractor than they did on AD.

[HeloDude]

Don't worry, I'm sure getting rid of the traditional 20-year retirement next year will fix all these problems...

[Guardian]

Huh?  TAMI dudes were flowed back out to their jets about the same timeframe as the first UPT directs.
...unless they re-cat'ed

Tami 21 guys who didn't re cat who got re flowed to holloman because the didn't re-cat didn't.


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[dream big]

9 hours ago, ViperMan said:

This solves nothing - as a "solution" it will only exacerbate the problem. For the reason identified below:

Shack.

I see what you're saying, but it would mitigate the problem or at least delay the shortage of RPA folks? At least it may perhaps boost morale in the RPA squadrons since you're filling it with people who want to be there? 

[Guest]

I see what you're saying, but it would mitigate the problem or at least delay the shortage of RPA folks? At least it may perhaps boost morale in the RPA squadrons since you're filling it with people who want to be there? 

The training pipeline is already full. Whether you pour Es or Os into it isn't going to change a thing.


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[Azimuth]

9 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

 

And then, when their enlistments are up, they would kill to also GTFO and make more money on the outside. Paying someone even less to do the same job isn't going to fix the problem.


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Why not? The Army does it all the time with Warrants flying helos being the majority of the experience in the Army Aviation branch.

[viper154]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

I see what you're saying, but it would mitigate the problem or at least delay the shortage of RPA folks? At least it may perhaps boost morale in the RPA squadrons since you're filling it with people who want to be there? 

It would require a major culture shift in the RPA communities. Most sensors wouldn't mind being pilots for pilot pay and rank. Most I've talked to wouldn't want to be enlisted pilot with the current pay scale. To much responsibility for to little money. 

 

Im a huge advocate for pairing up RPA squadrons with light attack and dual qual for the 11s. I would never leave if I could kill a terrorist or two every once in awhile in the box and go tear up the skies in a AT-6/A-29/scorpion or whatever we might buy. More than likely RPAs and light attack are going to intergrate regularly on the battlefield and it's helps the RPA manning keeping 11s in the community. Hell, you could dual qual sensors to sit in the back seat. 

[Guest]

Why not? The Army does it all the time with Warrants flying helos being the majority of the experience in the Army Aviation branch.

The demand for RPA experience outside is very high. The demand for helicopter pilots, on the other hand...

I imagine the army has no issue keeping W pilots because they're compensated pretty well, have a fulfilling mission, and actually get to focus on their mission.


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[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, Azimuth said:

Why not? The Army does it all the time with Warrants flying helos being the majority of the experience in the Army Aviation branch.

Fixed wing opportunities > Helicopter opportunities

RPA opportunities > Helicopter opportunities

It simply boils down to economics/available choices. It's not at all complicated. Right now we're watching people bail who are being paid $100K+ to do a job (RPA): you can observe that fact. It's happening right now. Nor will "moral" fix it.

3 hours ago, dream big said:

I see what you're saying, but it would mitigate the problem or at least delay the shortage of RPA folks? At least it may perhaps boost morale in the RPA squadrons since you're filling it with people who want to be there? 

The suggestion that paying someone ~$60K to do that same job because of "moral" ignores another fact that you can also observe right now: fighter pilots are bailing faster than they can be replaced. "Moral" will only keep you around so long.

What I feel like people should be discussing, is why the AF insists upon placing a job that can literally be accomplished anywhere, in some of the worst real-estate the AF has. Want to keep people around? Let them live in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, England, Florida, California, Colorado - don't shovel them off to Creech, Holloman, Shaw, etc.

Edited July 23, 2017 by ViperMan

[Duck]

It would require a major culture shift in the RPA communities. Most sensors wouldn't mind being pilots for pilot pay and rank. Most I've talked to wouldn't want to be enlisted pilot with the current pay scale. To much responsibility for to little money. 
 
Im a huge advocate for pairing up RPA squadrons with light attack and dual qual for the 11s. I would never leave if I could kill a terrorist or two every once in awhile in the box and go tear up the skies in a AT-6/A-29/scorpion or whatever we might buy. More than likely RPAs and light attack are going to intergrate regularly on the battlefield and it's helps the RPA manning keeping 11s in the community. Hell, you could dual qual sensors to sit in the back seat. 

This, this, this. Even I, as fed up as I am with the AF, would stick around to 20+, if i could fly a light attack and then RPA on my non-flying days. Put it in some nice locations. Fvck Altus, and Cannon (the go to AF bases for new missions). Send over a couple E-2/3s to do my DTS and paperwork queep and voila! AF just created a bunch more 11Fs/RPA pilots who can live on our own little island without dealing with the stuff that makes us all want to leave. I don't see it happening, but MGen Malloy was pushing for this back when he was Col Malloy at AWC.


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[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

What I feel like people should be discussing, is why the AF insists upon placing a job that can literally be accomplished anywhere, in some of the worst real-estate the AF has. Want to keep people around? Let them live in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, England, Florida, California, Colorado - don't shovel them off to Creech, Holloman, Shaw, etc.

That may have more to do with Senators trying to make sure their states get more jobs/money and the AF trying to appease the politicians. Think moving F-22s from Holloman and F-16s being chosen to replace them cause NM needs its fighters

[BashiChuni]

alright ill be the asshole...i don't think dual qual RPA/light attack makes sense

GENERALLY (key word GENERALLY) the pilots sent from UPT direct-> RPA are not your top sticks...i'll just leave it at that

throwing that dude into a dual qual to fly light attack would be asking for trouble when he's splitting his time on a robot.

light attack ain't flying from point A to point B...CAS deserves specialists not generalists and not guys fcking off half the time just so they can "fly in a cockpit"

the guys i've encountered in their post-RPA duties are 70-30 not sharp/low aviation SA-descent stick good SA. that's just my experience. the talent isn't there for dual qual. hurt feelings RPA guys flame away!

and +1 for moving RPA bases to cool locations...too bad congress will get in the way.

Edited July 23, 2017 by BashiChuni

[viper154]

31 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

alright ill be the asshole...i don't think dual qual RPA/light attack makes sense

GENERALLY (key word GENERALLY) the pilots sent from UPT direct-> RPA are not your top sticks...i'll just leave it at that

throwing that dude into a dual qual to fly light attack would be asking for trouble when he's splitting his time on a robot.

light attack ain't flying from point A to point B...CAS deserves specialists not generalists and not guys fcking off half the time just so they can "fly in a cockpit"

the guys i've encountered in their post-RPA duties are 70-30 not sharp/low aviation SA-descent stick good SA. that's just my experience. the talent isn't there for dual qual. hurt feelings RPA guys flame away!

and +1 for moving RPA bases to cool locations...too bad congress will get in the way.

Your somewhat correct. RPAs are still a dumping ground for the not so great dudes from other communities. It's slowly changing though. There are just as many kick ass 11s as there are shit bags. I can't speak for all but the last round of UPT Ds were not all bottom of the class. I know 4 other guys and myself that were middle or top 3rd from UPT that got non vol'd. I think the dual qual would attract a lot more volunteers of higher quality, which would also help bring expierence to the RPA community.

 

You have a valid argument though. I could see some of the guys a know turn a jet into a lawn dart casket. There would have to be a process to keep the slow swimmers out. 

 

Either way, I don't see this ever happening, just a pipe dream on a Sunday afternoon while I sip my whisky. 

[HU&W]

50 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

CAS deserves specialists not generalists and not guys fcking off half the time just so they can "fly in a cockpit"

I'm curious what mission set you think the MQ-9 does, if not CAS.

[BFM this]

6 hours ago, Guardian said:

Tami 21 guys who didn't re cat who got re flowed to holloman because the didn't re-cat didn't.

If that's the case, then there's a failure somewhere in either the chain of command, the functional, the individual, or all of the above. One dude I knew who wanted to remain RPA had to lobby pretty strong to recat.  This was when the 11F storm was cresting the horizon; porch didn't want to let him go.  Or, dudes that are still (unwillingly) in droneville could be there as an easy bill payer for the porch, which again would be a foul, imo.  Regardless, if they are still there, they are way beyond their commitment, and have had ample opportunity to exercise their prerogative options--at this point, big blue is not chaining them there against their will.

[Guardian]

But their previous mws requires five years of less out of the cockpit. Hence the problem. 2+ years at creech. No recat so forced PCS to holloman for another 3-4 years which takes them past the 5 years. Big blue wins and loses again. And goldfien fully supported it.


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[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, HU&W said:

I'm curious what mission set you think the MQ-9 does, if not CAS.

i'm intimately familiar with the MQ-9 mission set

i'd argue you can't plug and play an MQ-9 pilot into an A-10 cockpit...tell him to go do CAS...and get the same return

Edited July 23, 2017 by BashiChuni
spelling

[Duck]

i'm intimately familiar with the MQ-9 mission set
i'd argue you can't plug and play an MQ-9 pilot into an A-10 cockpit...tell him to go do CAS...and get the same return

Malloy's COA was that you take 11Fs and Dual Qual them and all they did was fly and operate drones. No additional duties and a vast and extensive support system (finance, Dts, etc). I obviously have no experience but it seemed better than what the AF was doing (i.e. UPT direct and TAMI 21). Maybe better in theory than practice but seemed like more in line for what I signed up for.


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[Kenny Powers]

My guess is that would cause even more 11Fs to jump ship, if that's possible.

11Fs, just like everyone else I'm sure, want less bullshit jobs so they can spend more time focusing on their primary job of being a fighter pilot. Not to say this the wrong way but flying drones would become a huge additional duty.

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[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

But their previous mws requires five years of less out of the cockpit. Hence the problem. 2+ years at creech. No recat so forced PCS to holloman for another 3-4 years which takes them past the 5 years. Big blue wins and loses again. And goldfien fully supported it.


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The data on the mig's is incorrect.  The fighter OG's don't want somebody past 5 years, the syllabus says TX-2 is 7 years, so I'm saying there's a chance…….

Is that 2 movie quotes in 1 post, shame on myself.  

 

And if there was going to be a "first" dual qual Wing, I'm guessing Tucson would be it.

Edited July 24, 2017 by matmacwc

[BFM this]

16 hours ago, Guardian said:

But their previous mws requires five years of less out of the cockpit. Hence the problem. 2+ years at creech. No recat so forced PCS to holloman for another 3-4 years which takes them past the 5 years. Big blue wins and loses again. And goldfien fully supported it.

WOM.

AFI11-202V1  

2.2. Requalification Training.  

2.2.1. Unqualified up to 39 months at the end of a non-flying assignment, or up to 51 months at the end of any active flying assignment. Complete training in all delinquent items (as applicable), additional training as directed by the squadron commander, and a requalification evaluation IAW AFI 11-202 Vol 2 and AFI 11-2MDS Vol 2. An ETCA formal school flying training course (TX-3) satisfies this requalification requirement, if specified in the applicable AFI 11-2MDS Vol 1.

2.2.2. Unqualified 39 or more months at the end of a non-flying assignment, or 51 or more months at the end of any active flying assignment, up to 8 Years. Complete the appropriate ETCA formal school flying training course (TX-2) and a flight evaluation IAW AFI 11-202 Vol 2 and AFI 11-2MDS Vol 2.

2.2.3. Unqualified in MDS Over 8 Years. Complete the appropriate ETCA formal school flying training (TX-1) and a flight evaluation IAW AFI 11-202 Vol 2 and AFI 11- 2MDS Vol 2. 

 Don't know if MDS specific V1s are any more restrictive.

Edited July 24, 2017 by BFM this
Accuracy

[SurelySerious]

i'm intimately familiar with the MQ-9 mission set
i'd argue you can't plug and play an MQ-9 pilot into an A-10 cockpit...tell him to go do CAS...and get the same return

You act as if there wouldn't be platform specific training to learn the mechanics for this other airframe. In the same manner I wouldn't expect a U-28 guy to know how to HAS if we just "plug-and-play" him into an A-10.

You've got a valid beef with one guy, but outside of your single data point I don't think you're nearly as aware of the mission set and expectations as you think you are.

[tac airlifter]

27 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I wouldn't expect a U-28 guy to know how to HAS if we just "plug-and-play" him into an A-10.

What is HAS?

[brabus]

While nice at first thought, dual qual is not as easy as some of you think.  I have flown with a lot great dudes who are dual qual, and these dudes happen to be some extremely high functioning human beings - as in way smarter than the rest of us bottom 99%...and capable pilots as well who do fly tactical missions in each type.  There's about two of them I would even remotely consider capable of going to combat in one of their MDS in their current state (i.e. without picking an MDS and spending 3+ months getting spun up on how to employ well).  Now just imagine asking an average dude to know two separate sets of TTP, different mission sets, etc. (who cares about the motherhood/systems GK...don't care, that's easy).

Bottom line, you will predominantly end up with below average MQ-9 guy who moonlights as a below average OA-X guy.  Not because he's necessarily terrible as an individual pilot, but because he can't execute two different MDS well; he can execute one at an average capability level.  I know some of you can likely point to a guy you know who could probably hack it alright, but it's not about that one guy, it's about the idea of an entire squadron executing in such a manner, and by the way, that entire squadron is not made up of well above average pilots.  This may not have been an issue 30 years ago, but shit is complicated now (for everyone), so there's a reason flying multiple types of aircraft as a  CMR CGO/young FGO doesn't happen anymore.  

[RTB]

On 7/21/2017 at 9:39 AM, YoungnDumb said:

In other news the person who got the MC-130 Kadena stormed out of the building in tears.

I'm sure that story won't follow him EVERYWHERE he goes.