Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[Magnum]

A small part of why I love the Viper...

Edited July 27, 2018 by Magnum

[MooseAg03]

A small part of why I love the Viper...

There’s nothing for the family model or is all of that spelled out in the v3?

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

There’s nothing for the family model or is all of that spelled out in the v3?

Nothing

[HerkDriver87]

Pilot Training Next (PTN) Drop

CAF-

2 x F-35

4 x F-16

MAF-

3 x C-17

2 x KC-10

1 x MC-130J

1 x C-146

1 x U-28

[Bode]

Pilot Training Next (PTN) Drop
CAF-
2 x F-35
4 x F-16
MAF-
3 x C-17
2 x KC-10
1 x MC-130J
1 x C-146
1 x U-28

Are we still on course for the fighter guys to not do IFF? Anyone know?

[Inertia17]

12 minutes ago, Bode said:

Are we still on course for the fighter guys to not do IFF? Anyone know?

Rumor is the Viper tracked guys are going to next Kelly B Course. Should be interesting.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Inertia17

[MooseAg03]

Pilot Training Next (PTN) Drop
CAF-
2 x F-35
4 x F-16
MAF-
3 x C-17
2 x KC-10
1 x MC-130J
1 x C-146
1 x U-28

So of the 20 who started, 15 were officers and 5 enlisted so it looks like 1 May have washed out. I tried to find articles about this, did these guys do any actual flying in the T-6 or something else? Sure seems like a fast timeline, the info I could find says it was supposed to be a year long program.

[Inertia17]

11 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

So of the 20 who started, 15 were officers and 5 enlisted so it looks like 1 May have washed out. I tried to find articles about this, did these guys do any actual flying in the T-6 or something else? Sure seems like a fast timeline, the info I could find says it was supposed to be a year long program.

I believe it was ~30 hours flying in the T-6 in around 6 months.

[Vimix22]

35 minutes ago, Inertia17 said:

I believe it was ~30 hours flying in the T-6 in around 6 months.

So their 31st hour will be in the single seat F-16? That seems like a crazy jump. 

[brabus]

They had to have flown more than 30 hrs in 6 months, that'd be about 3 sorties per month if true. Please tell me that's a typo. Going from barely being able to find your own ass in a T-6 straight to a $90M jet with 40K thrust where a brand new wingman is expected to have the SA/decision making ability of a 4th gen flight lead...yep this is going to work well. 

[SocialD]

The other FO on a recent trip was a reserve IFF guy and talked about this program.  He mentioned that it emphasized LOTS of AI/sim time, so maybe 30 hours is correct...  If they're willing to put a stud in a Viper after a handful of hours in a T-6, nothing would surprise me.  

[Inertia17]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

They had to have flown more than 30 hrs in 6 months, that'd be about 3 sorties per month if true. Please tell me that's a typo. 

No typo, Sim and VR for the rest.

[soupafly06]

2 hours ago, Inertia17 said:

No typo, Sim and VR for the rest.

So if that’s the case and they’ve curtailed actual flying so much then what’s the case to keep URT around? 

[matmacwc]

11 minutes ago, soupafly06 said:

So if that’s the case and they’ve curtailed actual flying so much then what’s the case to keep URT around? 

WTF are you talking about?

[RPA driver]

URT is all in the sim

[Bode]

WTF are you talking about?

RPA training

[soupafly06]

I get URT is all in the sim, I’m a graduate of the course.  All I’m asking is that if UPT Next works out and it’s 90% sim and only 30 hours in the T-6 then why even keep URT as a separate training pipeline at all?  Seems like squeezing drone drivers through the course would provide flexibility to flow into other airframes instead of being limited to just the MQ-9 and RQ-4.  Apologies for the thread derail. 

[dream big]

31 minutes ago, soupafly06 said:

I get URT is all in the sim, I’m a graduate of the course.  All I’m asking is that if UPT Next works out and it’s 90% sim and only 30 hours in the T-6 then why even keep URT as a separate training pipeline at all?  Seems like squeezing drone drivers through the course would provide flexibility to flow into other airframes instead of being limited to just the MQ-9 and RQ-4.  Apologies for the thread derail. 

It’s not going to work, someone is going to get killed.  I am legitimately surprised the Air Force is going through with this disasterous idea.  I knew the Air Force was pretty stupid but I didn’t know we could hit this new low of stupidity.  How many more class As or fatalities will it take for the clowns at staff to realize you can’t cut corners in the business of aviation? Do they think these UPT next or whatever dudes are going to get trained at the FTU or ops squadrons? Who is going to train them!? Most of your experienced IPs are either gone or queep guzzling up at Group or Wing Staff.

[Standby]

For fvcks sake, quit with the melodramatic bullshit. You act like the end of modern aviation is at hand because an experiment in training modernization is ongoing. Have some faith in the FTU IPs to keep these dudes safe and provide them the instruction they need.

[Guest]

. Have some faith in the FTU IPs to keep these dudes safe and provide them the instruction they need.

No. The only faith that I have is that this program is too big to fail in the eyes of Big Blue, and that the FTUs will graduate them whether they merit it or not. Six months of sims, VR, and 30 hours of flight in a T-6 is not an acceptable replacement for UPT and IFF. The Air Force probably could trim the UPT syllabus without taking on too much risk, but this takes it to dangerously irresponsible levels. Even if the VR training was a 100% substitute, hour for hour, for actual flight (which we all know it isn’t), they’re still cutting T-38s and IFF (or T-1s). These guys should graduate with WARNING placarded on their wings.

[Danger41]

For all the purists out there that did UPT back when it was difficult (like me), how much of that syllabus time was spent learning the airplane and local trainingisms that had zero effect on your follow-on jets? At least for me, understanding when I could request closed or find the VFR entry point at Hacker (which I never did right) didn’t help me much in IFF/FTU. IFF could be taught in any airplane because the program is an admin course. If you incorporate those IFF expectations earlier on and influence guys when they’re learning how things are done than you can pick that up as you go. Sure, having Air sense helped by accruing hours but that can be augmented well by high quality sims, in my opinion.

 

Based on my limited knowledge of this program, I honestly think these students are going to pleasantly surprise people.

Standing by for Spears.

[viper154]

5 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

For all the purists out there that did UPT back when it was difficult (like me), how much of that syllabus time was spent learning the airplane and local trainingisms that had zero effect on your follow-on jets? At least for me, understanding when I could request closed or find the VFR entry point at Hacker (which I never did right) didn’t help me much in IFF/FTU. IFF could be taught in any airplane because the program is an admin course. If you incorporate those IFF expectations earlier on and influence guys when they’re learning how things are done than you can pick that up as you go. Sure, having Air sense helped by accruing hours but that can be augmented well by high quality sims, in my opinion.

 

Based on my limited knowledge of this program, I honestly think these students are going to pleasantly surprise people.

Standing by for Spears.

In all honesty I don’t think it’s a horrible idea but I think it’s to aggressive for a new program. 30 T-6 hours does seem pretty low. I think we can all agree that some things just have to be learned in the plane. I would have made it a 9 month ish syllabus, keeping most of the current T-6 program but transitioning it to be more in the SIM/VR/new tech thing they have going on. With a lot less wx/mx cancels because most of it is in the sim you could knock that out in 4.5 months. Then transition the other 4.5 months to a similar T-38/T-X program with some IFF stuff. 

 

 

[flyusaf83]

Will there be another PTN class now? Or will the AF wait to see what kind of product they have first?  It will take at least a couple years to see how PTN pilots stack up against their traditionally trained peers, IMO.

I’d also think it would be smart to have a class of non-handpicked studs as well, before the AF goes balls deep on the concept.

[Skitzo]

For all the purists out there that did UPT back when it was difficult (like me), how much of that syllabus time was spent learning the airplane and local trainingisms that had zero effect on your follow-on jets? At least for me, understanding when I could request closed or find the VFR entry point at Hacker (which I never did right) didn’t help me much in IFF/FTU. IFF could be taught in any airplane because the program is an admin course. If you incorporate those IFF expectations earlier on and influence guys when they’re learning how things are done than you can pick that up as you go. Sure, having Air sense helped by accruing hours but that can be augmented well by high quality sims, in my opinion.

 

Based on my limited knowledge of this program, I honestly think these students are going to pleasantly surprise people.

Standing by for Spears.

 

One of the lead guys in this program is a former U-28 guy, and I must say the technology they are leveraging does sound pretty incredible. However I am skeptical. And I hope the F-16 IPs give them the same treatment as any other stud.

 

I am also afraid it is too big to fail and they will let them pass thru no matter how much they suck, but I thought there was some provision to just send them back to conventional UPT as an incentive/remediation method if they sucked.

 

Of course AFSOC and everyone is wondering if this will work so everyone else can replace their FTU sorties as well. Based on how awesome this stuff sounds why would anyone need a level D sim anymore. Let me sit back, plug into the matrix for several hours and knock out all of my semi annual training requirements!

 

On a side note, expect an uptick of U-28 assignments...large increase in school house production is slated.

[hindsight2020]

There is a difference between cutting chairflying time via VR technology (implementation which I support btw) and bypassing phase III in an equalizer type airframe like the white rocket; an animal much more unforgiving of airmanship deficiencies than a viper via severe underpowering and no flight control automation of consequence.

People are straight up playing with fire going from t6 straight to a big mouth burner jet, on the rails of VR potato. I'm balls deep in VR implementation at work; its a very immature development right now imo. And that's for guys with standard upt and a heck of a lot more hours under their belt. We are currently not making any cuts to the flying sortie count, which I think is a much more honest approach to VR validation than the PTN boondoggle.

My issue is that the PTN thing has "too visible to fail" written all over it. That's not honest brokering in the least, especially when sold as an experiment.

Do not construe this criticism of the implementation timeline as some sort of luddite argument.