Track Selects and Assignment Nights

[Thor]

Does anyone know whether the students who dropped the 3 x U-28 and 2 x C-146 put those high on their wishlist? Just curious, thanks! 

[brabus]

13 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Funny, the vast majority of guys I know getting out (both fixed and rotor wing) are doing it for a better "lifestyle".  If a SP has enough SA and true self awareness (this is critical) to choose an aircraft based off what he/she thinks will give them an overall better life, I say good on them!  Now if someone believes the emotional satisfaction of mission X vs mission Y will give them a better life, then likewise that should be their driving decision.  

So I respectfully disagree with your opinion...

Definition of "lifestyle" depends on the context.  My response was in the context of "lifestyle" = not working 60 hrs/wk and/or being gone a lot.  I don't think the fighter world solely owns the 60 hr work week / gone all the time...in fact there are other communities who are gone far more than your average fighter guy and when at home station they're not working an easy 9-5.  THAT is a poor "lifestyle" reason to choose one track/aircraft over another.

The "lifestyle" all of us seek as we get out is completely MDS-agnostic. The AF crushes people equally across all MDS when in the context of your definition of "lifestyle."  Very few people are getting out because they hate the "fighter life" or the "tanker life" specifically, 95% are getting out due to general AD jackassery found in all communities, deploying for no good reason doing stupid jobs (another thing no MDS has the market cornered on), etc.

[Duck]

Completely valid. I know fighter guys who just went on their first deployment 16 years in... don't know of any heavy guy who has never deployed at 16 years.


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[hispeed7721]

I know fighter guys who just went on their first deployment 16 years in...

This makes me literally laugh out loud. Most of our 16 year guys have 15-20 deployments, and everyone else is on about the same pacing regardless of time in. Totally different worlds...


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[Toro]

Funny, the vast majority of guys I know getting out (both fixed and rotor wing) are doing it for a better "lifestyle".  If a SP has enough SA and true self awareness (this is critical) to choose an aircraft based off what he/she thinks will give them an overall better life, I say good on them!  Now if someone believes the emotional satisfaction of mission X vs mission Y will give them a better life, then likewise that should be their driving decision.  
So I respectfully disagree with your opinion...

Deployment rates, manning, training requirements, TDY types and locations, and other issues that drive quality of life are easily subject to change. Aircraft missions are not.

[Lord Ratner]

Completely valid. I know fighter guys who just went on their first deployment 16 years in... don't know of any heavy guy who has never deployed at 16 years.


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If one exists, they're probably a commander...

[HeloDude]

On March 29, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Toro said:

Deployment rates, manning, training requirements, TDY types and locations, and other issues that drive quality of life are easily subject to change. Aircraft missions are not.

But to use your same argument, then why are so many pilots getting out of the AF for a better "lifestyle"?  After all, what's causing guys leave now is now is subject to change, right?

Yes, I am playing devil's advocate...but I would honestly be interested in hearing your response...

[brabus]

21 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

But to use your same argument, then why are so many pilots getting out of the AF for a better "lifestyle"?  After all, what's causing guys leave now is now is subject to change, right?

Yes, I am playing devil's advocate...but I would honestly be interested in hearing your response...

I suppose the point is the mission type is more or less a constant (sans emerging threats driving new TTP, etc.), but the other stuff as you said is always subject to change.  So yes, it could next year be 1985 again and a total fighter pilot rage fest heaven.  But it could also be 10 times worse next year.  In both cases, you're still executing X missions.  So, making a choice based on all those changing variables vs. choosing a mission you want and know will stay relatively constant is not recommended.

[Dudemanbro]

On 3/28/2017 at 9:24 AM, Thor said:

Does anyone know whether the students who dropped the 3 x U-28 and 2 x C-146 put those high on their wishlist? Just curious, thanks! 

Everyone I know who has dropped a 146 or 28 typically had them pretty high on their list.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Rooster

[di1630]

But to use your same argument, then why are so many pilots getting out of the AF for a better "lifestyle"?  After all, what's causing guys leave now is now is subject to change, right?
Yes, I am playing devil's advocate...but I would honestly be interested in hearing your response...

You'll view what you do differently as life circumstances change.

My first deployment not too long after 9/11 I was single begging to go. Loved it, felt the mission was legit.

A few years back (10 years after the original) I was asked to deploy same place, same mission/jet and I had a choice so I said no.

The difference was a wife, 2 kids and 2,000 hours experience where my lack of faith in the mission we were doing outweighed the family impact.

I think if a meaningful conflict erupted 96.69% of dudes across the spectrum would love to fight and have family support.

I recently missed 2 months of my family over the holidays deploying to do a flying job that I deemed was not worth missing my family to do. 10 years ago, I probably would have volunteered to stay longer to fly but attitudes change.

What once was awesome, is now just a job to pay for my lifestyle.




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[Ulysses]

You'll view what you do differently as life circumstances change.

My first deployment not too long after 9/11 I was single begging to go. Loved it, felt the mission was legit.

A few years back (10 years after the original) I was asked to deploy same place, same mission/jet and I had a choice so I said no.

The difference was a wife, 2 kids and 2,000 hours experience where my lack of faith in the mission we were doing outweighed the family impact.

I think if a meaningful conflict erupted 96.69% of dudes across the spectrum would love to fight and have family support.

I recently missed 2 months of my family over the holidays deploying to do a flying job that I deemed was not worth missing my family to do. 10 years ago, I probably would have volunteered to stay longer to fly but attitudes change.

What once was awesome, is now just a job to pay for my lifestyle.




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This sounds like a really good point. Have you seen this shift in perspective be the case for other/most older guys as time goes on and families start coming into the picture? It sounds like it's just a fact of life.

Also do you think guys see OIR as not as much of a "meaningful conflict?"

[MechGov]

Also do you think guys see OIR as not as much of a "meaningful conflict?"

Meaningful conflict and meaningful response to said conflict are not necessarily the same thing.

[di1630]

 

This sounds like a really good point. Have you seen this shift in perspective be the case for other/most older guys as time goes on and families start coming into the picture? It sounds like it's just a fact of life.

 

Also do you think guys see OIR as not as much of a "meaningful conflict?"

I doubt anyone on here sport-bitching ever thought they'd do anything other than love the USAF flying.

 

Young guys tracking fresh out of UPT are always excited to do the mission. After a while, a job becomes a job, no matter what the cool factor or fun is in the beginning.

 

I've realized my kids are growing up quick and every day I miss, I'll never get back.

 

The other day I flew a 469kt low level down the coast and through the mountains of a foreign country and I was rarely above 300ft no black line. Once upon a time I would have killed to do that, but between my deployment and TDY schedule, I've been with my kids 13 days of the last 90.

 

I would have traded that flight to watch cartoons and cook pancakes with my kids.

 

I know someday when I retire I'll miss those flights, but after 3k hrs mil flying, I realize I can replace that void with other activities I enjoy. I can't replace my lost Christmas or New Years or the two birthdays I missed while I was doing (in my opinion) questionably useful deployed flying but I also realize it's the job I signed for.

 

In a few years it's also a job I can quit. I'd stay if the USAF offered balance. As of now, the lifestyle is too unstable for the family to continue longer than committed.

 

I'll say flat out though that if I were offered to do my career all over flying fighters, I'd still do it even for 1/2 the price. It's been terrific, I can't recommend it enough.

 

 

 

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[HeloDude]

10 hours ago, brabus said:

I suppose the point is the mission type is more or less a constant (sans emerging threats driving new TTP, etc.), but the other stuff as you said is always subject to change.  So yes, it could next year be 1985 again and a total fighter pilot rage fest heaven.  But it could also be 10 times worse next year.  In both cases, you're still executing X missions.  So, making a choice based on all those changing variables vs. choosing a mission you want and know will stay relatively constant is not recommended.

Again, then why are so many pilots getting out if the mission is relatively constant? 

[HeloDude]

6 hours ago, di1630 said:

You'll view what you do differently as life circumstances change.

My first deployment not too long after 9/11 I was single begging to go. Loved it, felt the mission was legit.

A few years back (10 years after the original) I was asked to deploy same place, same mission/jet and I had a choice so I said no.

The difference was a wife, 2 kids and 2,000 hours experience where my lack of faith in the mission we were doing outweighed the family impact.

I think if a meaningful conflict erupted 96.69% of dudes across the spectrum would love to fight and have family support.

I recently missed 2 months of my family over the holidays deploying to do a flying job that I deemed was not worth missing my family to do. 10 years ago, I probably would have volunteered to stay longer to fly but attitudes change.

What once was awesome, is now just a job to pay for my lifestyle.




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Are you suggesting a SP, gaining SA from talking to quite a few different people in each MDS, along with having self awareness (again, this is key), can't also take these variables you suggest into consideration?  I have recently seen quite a few married (some with children) SP's in UPT (especially with the all the Captains), and even the single students are asking what the older guys think with regards to lifestyle.  

[Toro]

11 hours ago, HeloDude said:

But to use your same argument, then why are so many pilots getting out of the AF for a better "lifestyle"?  After all, what's causing guys leave now is now is subject to change, right?

Yes, I am playing devil's advocate...but I would honestly be interested in hearing your response...

The pilots leaving are doing so across all MDSs, which shows that the problem is systemic and not related to any particular airframe, but a clueless leadership.  If anything, your devil's advocacy proves my point - the lifestyle problems *might* change and retention could improve, but that's a crapshoot.  Next year, tankers will still be refueling, Hawgs will still be strafing, and the Vipers will still Bingo out of the fight early.

[HeloDude]

3 minutes ago, Toro said:

The pilots leaving are doing so across all MDSs, which shows that the problem is systemic and not related to any particular airframe, but a clueless leadership.  If anything, your devil's advocacy proves my point - the lifestyle problems *might* change and retention could improve, but that's a crapshoot.  Next year, tankers will still be refueling, Hawgs will still be strafing, and the Vipers will still Bingo out of the fight early.

Come on Toro, you know certain airframes are losing guys at faster rates than others.  Each MDS has its own culture/flavor and this largely plays into the lifestyle piece--whether positively or negatively.  Again, if it was all about the mission of the MDS, guys would be staying in...

[Toro]

3 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Come on Toro, you know certain airframes are losing guys at faster rates than others.  Each MDS has its own culture/flavor and this largely plays into the lifestyle piece--whether positively or negatively.  Again, if it was all about the mission of the MDS, guys would be staying in...

I don't entirely disagree with you, I guess I'm biased towards my own history.  I consider myself fortunate enough to have had a great 19.5 year career; never really had a bad assignment, all of which but one were flying.  But those last six months went downhill quick and led to me seven day opting and rescinding my son's GI Bill so I could get out before Big Blue tried to fuck up my fun factor and potentially post-AF flying chances by sending me to a non-flying job.  A lot of fighter guys are leaving because even though they love their flying, they're sick of Big Blue not letting them fly enough - again, not MDS specific.  That was 100% the case for me, and I punched.

[BE36]

KCBM 17-15 Track Select:

6- T38 (1 Guard 3 International 2 AD)

16- T1s 

0 Helos 

[Polar Bear]

I doubt anyone on here sport-bitching ever thought they'd do anything other than love the USAF flying.
 
Young guys tracking fresh out of UPT are always excited to do the mission. After a while, a job becomes a job, no matter what the cool factor or fun is in the beginning.
 
I've realized my kids are growing up quick and every day I miss, I'll never get back.
 
The other day I flew a 469kt low level down the coast and through the mountains of a foreign country and I was rarely above 300ft no black line. Once upon a time I would have killed to do that, but between my deployment and TDY schedule, I've been with my kids 13 days of the last 90.
 
I would have traded that flight to watch cartoons and cook pancakes with my kids.
 
I know someday when I retire I'll miss those flights, but after 3k hrs mil flying, I realize I can replace that void with other activities I enjoy. I can't replace my lost Christmas or New Years or the two birthdays I missed while I was doing (in my opinion) questionably useful deployed flying but I also realize it's the job I signed for.
 
In a few years it's also a job I can quit. I'd stay if the USAF offered balance. As of now, the lifestyle is too unstable for the family to continue longer than committed.
 
I'll say flat out though that if I were offered to do my career all over flying fighters, I'd still do it even for 1/2 the price. It's been terrific, I can't recommend it enough.
 
 
 
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Ironic how guys want to be home and not miss holidays but go to the airlines.

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[daynightindicator]

 

This sounds like a really good point. Have you seen this shift in perspective be the case for other/most older guys as time goes on and families start coming into the picture? It sounds like it's just a fact of life.

 

Also do you think guys see OIR as not as much of a "meaningful conflict?"

 

I've seen and experienced the shift as time goes on for exactly the reasons stated. I was dying to go on my first deployment, but honestly I reached my lifetime USAF goal as a 1Lt when I heard a JTAC tell me our bombs saved his life and he didn't think he'd make it back to the FOB that night. That was it - career validated in that moment.

 

On subsequent deployments, my satisfaction with the larger mission waned, but I was able to find satisfaction in other things. First and foremost, I saw it as my mission to protect US lives on the ground above all else. Regardless of the politics, I was there to help get that 18 yo private back home safely. I was fortunate to have a mission that allowed me to rationalize that way.

 

I also found satisfaction in teaching young dudes and watching them excel in combat. While I would never turn down a mission lead or mission commander opportunity, I was more than happy to see the young guys get their turn. I also found some level of satisfaction in things like Top 3 and other ops-leadership jobs.

 

I don't have kids yet, but I did several deployments with SO's left back home. The ups and downs of that don't necessarily get easier, but they do soften a little bit, which sometimes turns it into more of a grind. Id imagine that is different with kids, as I've seen that with my bros.

 

I still enjoy waking up and going to work most days. Once that balance changes to the negative, I'll look at my options.

 

YMMV.

 

 

 

 

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[Goblin]

Ironic how guys want to be home and not miss holidays but go to the airlines.

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I'm assuming there's a big difference between missing a day/week vs 3-6 months at a time.

[Duck]

Ironic how guys want to be home and not miss holidays but go to the airlines.

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As a kid of a Marine and then an Airline pilot, hands down I would take Dad the airline pilot any day. In the Airlines, when he "missed" Christmas, it meant we celebrated on Dec 22. In the USMC, when he missed Christmas, it meant we just kept his presents in the spare bedroom till he got back 6-9 months later.


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[nunya]

6 minutes ago, caseylf said:

Ironic how guys want to be home and not miss holidays but go to the airlines.

 

I don't see the irony.  Been home every holiday since I started in the airline world.  Full disclosure: I did have to commute on Christmas Day night my first year (when I had been on property for 2 months) so I had to celebrate Christmas that morning instead of later in the day.  Kinda like when I celebrated Christmas/Thanksgiving/Anniversary/New Year's/Valentine's in April after a 9 month deployment.  Oh wait, no.

Generally speaking, if guys are involuntarily missing holidays in this airline environment, it's collateral damage from a voluntary choice.  

[Karl Hungus]

3 hours ago, caseylf said:

 

Ironic how guys want to be home and not miss holidays but go to the airlines.

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Why the screen name change Scoobs?  Why would you want to separate yourself from your previous posts?

Just to refresh yourself...

   On 7/11/2016 at 11:25 PM,  hispeed7721 said: 

Which brutal airline do you fly for scoobs?

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My guess is none.

Some interesting Scoobs quotes:

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/9139-regional-pilot-or-ad-pilot/?page=2#comment-105108

"Here is my plan.My parents will never get to retire because lack of planning and luck.I don't want to end up in there shoes so here is my plan.After college join the Guard/Reserves in the area I like.After UPT bum around and build my flight time.Once I reach the mins for the regional airlines or charter I will decide if I want to jump ship or stay bumming.My goal is to fly corporate aircraft so I would check the airports and make connections.Once I reach a couple thousand hours apply for that dream job and get it.Then when I turn 60 I will have 30 years in the reserves and at least 20 years for a corporation.And if you decide to fly Pt 91 like me there is no age you have to retire.Hope this helps."

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/8292-questions-about-bumming/#comment-97390

"Thanks for the post.Right now I am looking at joining a C-17 unit as a loadmaster.Its not just because I want a pilot slot or college tution.I plan on finishing my degree online so I could fly as much as possible.I was just seeing if I would have to get another part time job or if I could swing it.Thanks for the help."

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/4058-online-degrees/#comment-58889

"Can anybody recommend any schools online?University of Phoenix is just to expensive."

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/8481-afrotc-vs-guardreserve/#comment-97936

"AirG how many hours are possible a month to as a bum on the C-17?I'm still a year away before I can apply.Hopefully I will get picked up by March ARB."

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/414-hueys/#comment-6184

"Cool,just looking at my options. The Guard/Reserve looks good but its just part time. Plus there are not to many helo units and there locations aren't to good. I would have to live in my car at Moffett or freeze my tail off and deal with crazy Eskimos in Alaska. Thanks again."

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/11864-st-george-or-kanab-ut/#comment-137685

"If you read my post I didn't say Orem or Provo were in Salt Lake County. And why are you giving me a history leason. I was raised LDS and in SLC so I know. Oh and Salt Lake County is changing and their freaking out. As far as college I got tired of Utah and moved to Phx and then back to San Diego. I'm not paying out of state resident fees. I already owe to much in student loans"

https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/21313-march-arb/#comment-399942

"Riverside is boring. You're driving distance to the beach, mountains, and desert though. Riverside has some nice areas. Woodcrest, Canyoncrest, or Orangecrest. Those would be the closest to March. Redlands is the nicest city but definitely a commute. You could go south and look at Temecula or Murrieta. My first choice would be Canyon Lake. It's a gated community with a lake for fishing or wake boarding. The 215 and 91 are pretty awful. The location is nice to get out of town."

 

So Scoobs is/was a hopeful ARC applicant, who moved to SoCal, appears to not have been hired anywhere (based on him/her asking about ARC units for more than a decade), may or may not have finished an online degree, and likes to bash the airlines.  He/she is apparently really into military and civilian aviation,  and posts with more or less the same agenda over on APC as "gilligan13".  Personally, it's great to have Scoobs around- he/she always provides a good chuckle, and it's obvious that he/she is full of shit with every opinion Scoobs posts.  

   0"

 

Scoobs/Casey/Gilligan/whatever you decide to call yourself today, let me know if you need help getting hired by an ARC unit as a loadmaster or something.  I'm guessing you're too old by now to be hired for an ARC UPT position or via OTS, but I'm hearing stories of age waivers, so you never know.  I'd be happy to help- I have lots of friends in lots of units, and I'm sure you're eager to get in the fight, given your preponderance for chugging the active duty koolaid all of these years.  Despite being a nobody loser from Utah/Arizona/SoCal with a bizarre obsession with military aviators, I'm sure we can find you a place in this jobs program- and you never know, maybe you can avoid working on weekends and holidays!