Tanker to Fighter

[Guest thefranchise]

seems like the best bet is to leave AD and try to get a Guard unit to send you through a 38 course and IFF. Hitting up the 38 experience in U2s would def be a resume builder to help the cause for a guard unit to look at you. Most of the CCs i ask have suggested or re-iterated this for myself as it will most likely be my goal in the next 2-3 years.

if you want to x-flow you need a lotta luck but it still happens although you may need to sacrafice Active Duty for it.

[ 28. May 2006, 17:29: Message edited by: thefranchise ]

[Guest ralph]

So they stay flying the T-38/T-1? If there are TX spots available in a few years can they pick those up? If you read the AFPC site they mention that the fighter world is undermanned. From the way it sounds they like this.

[ 28. May 2006, 18:04: Message edited by: ralph ]

[Hacker]

Originally posted by ralph:

If you read the AFPC site they mention that the fighter world is undermanned. From the way it sounds they like this.

That is all pre-BRAC...with numerous F-16 units closing down, several F-15C units going away (or converting to Raptor), and the ANG absolutely taking it in the pooper.

Again, it's the politics of $$. The "new student" FTU pipeline will not be shut off or slowed down, so with the same amount of new guys being produced each year and less cockpits for them to go to...where is the slack going to be made up?

Answer: in the TX courses.

[HuggyU2]

Originally posted by Hacker:

I have only seen *one* person do this. One. Uno. This was one guy, a Marine on an exchange, who went to an F-117 from the U-2 by order of a couple Generals.

Post 1999 (when the crossflow boards closed) I've never seen a "line" USAF guy from a non-fighter background get sent to a "line" USAF fighter job via the U-2.

Non-fighter guys who go to the U-2 have not been through IFF, so they would have to get an IFF slot out of programmed PFT. Plus, they'd have to get an FTU B-Course slot out of programmed PFT.

All of that...not very likely to happen.

With the number of F-15C and F-16C units closing thanks to BRAC, even previously rated fighter pilots in non-fighter jobs (ALFA, staff, schools)are having a tough time getting back to their fighters. Unless you have a General out there who is shepherding you around, I wouldn't count on it happening.

Stop the presses! The info above is not correct. Since 2000, the U-2 community has sent 5 pilots to the F-117. These are their backgrounds:

- T-37 FAIP, C-141, U-2, F-117

- KC-135, T-38, U-2, F-117

- T-37 FAIP, C-5, U-2, F-117

- B-52, KC-10, U-2, F-117

- The last guy wasn't a Marine exchange. He was a Marine interservice transfer. Cobras, T-34, U-2, F-117

In the mid 90's, we sent "TMAT" Langland and "Egg" Smith to the Viper. TMAT was a T-38 FAIP and Egg was a C-21 driver. Both are great guys, and did well. Egg came back to the U-2 for a bit, and is now the DO of the 414th Red Flag Squadron, and flies as guest help with the 64th Aggressor Squadron. TMAT just retired out of Luke.

That said, not many pilots pursue that out of Beale: most really like it here.

Also: if you think that you're going to come to the U-2 as a stepping stone to a fighter, you need to get real. That was never the intent of these guys. And the thing about the U-2 is this: if you don't really WANT to fly it, you're going to hate it.

[ 31. May 2006, 22:30: Message edited by: Huggyu2 ]

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Huggyu2:

Stop the presses! The info above is not correct. Since 2000, the U-2 community has sent 5 pilots to the F-117.

Okay, I'll bite. There have been five.

I still stand by my original assertion that non-fighter guys in the U-2 are NOT being sent to "line" fighter jobs AT ALL (the stinkbug is a special duty assignment and doesn't count - I'm talking about Vipers, Eagles, and Hogs). I suspect with these other guys, like "Stone", we're still talking about specific dudes who had high-level leaders specifically directing the "system" to get them to the stinkbug.

Your guys from the 90s who went to the Viper do not count. Pre 1999 there was specifically a mechanism for heavy dudes to go transfer over to fighters (crossflow board). MORE importantly, the guys you're talking about from the mid-90s probably did UPT in the all-T-38 syllabus, so according to the leadership, they're still qualified to go over to a fighter. The issue since then has been essentially that anyone T-1 trained will not go to an active AF fighter billet. ANG units have a LOT more leeway, and they can send virtually anyone they want through the system, provided they go to the T-38 qual course at RND before IFF and FTU.

You're still talking about 5 pilots in more than 6 years that have come out of the U-2 and gone to one specific, non-line fighter airframe (where, by the way, they're undermanned and non-vol'ing line fighter guys to). Not great odds for a T-1 trained bubba who has a burr under his saddle to go fly a pointy-nosed airplane.

Better odds are to go find a fighter ANG unit that's hiring.

How's my boy "Ping" doing out in his initial qual at Beale (he's a FAIP from Moody)? Any SA on training of new dudes?

[ 01. June 2006, 04:53: Message edited by: Hacker ]

[Weezer]

If anyone wasn't aware, there's a PSDM for this out on mypers now.

[Guardian]

To fighter staff?


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[di1630]

Looks like 4 maf pilots to fighters...4 to bombers. Probably all from prev T-38 track to fighters if I had to guess.


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[HeloDude]

7 minutes ago, di1630 said:

Probably all from prev T-38 track to fighters if I had to guess.

That's the requirement in the PSDM...

[Duck]

Terrible idea.


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[BashiChuni]

Why? 

[VMFA187]

3 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Why? 

Transition crews are traditionally considerably slower to develop than guys tracking straight into the platform or from another fighter.

[Hacker]

It will be interesting to see how this one turns out; unfortunately, it will be 2-3 years before we can make the same kinds of assessments of performance that were seen during the '98/'99 crossflow.

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

Transition crews are traditionally considerably slower to develop than guys tracking straight into the platform or from another fighter.

Huh?  You mean like FAIPS?

[VMFA187]

40 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Huh?  You mean like FAIPS?

Apologies, sometimes my Navy/USMC lingo comes off slightly differently than intended.

I mean guys coming from a platform with a significantly different mission, i.e., EA-6B, C-130, etc... Transitioning to an F-18/15/16 don't tend to pick things up as quickly as a guy going directly into that platform after getting his wings or a fighter guy qualified in one fighter going to another fighter.

Our SERGRADs, equivalent to your FAIPs, tend to do just fine from the few I've seen.

Edited May 3, 2017 by VMFA187

[Polar Bear]

Didn't Rainman go from helos to fighters?

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[BFM this]

5 minutes ago, caseylf said:

Didn't Rainman go from helos to fighters?

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Knew two OGs that were former herbs.  Both did plenty well, both IP/SEFEs; one spent time at the FTU and didn't seem to have any trouble greening up his IP qual from stints at school and staff.

[Duck]

I know of two Wing Commanders who were Heavy to Fighter, but that was a different Air Force. The fighter WG/CCs and fighter porches can't even take care of their own guys who are punching left and right after sh!t deal after sh!t deal gets handed to them. How much do are they going to take care of a heavy guy who they don't even really want. Be realistic people.


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[dream big]

11 hours ago, di1630 said:

Looks like 4 maf pilots to fighters...4 to bombers. Probably all from prev T-38 track to fighters if I had to guess.


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All this AFPC MAF to CAF crossing streams hee-haw for 8 dudes? 

[Duck]

All this AFPC MAF to CAF crossing streams hee-haw for 8 dudes? 

It's all a test to see how those 8 will do. Judging by how AMC defines "success" I expect around 4-6 Gp Execs get slotted for this and the program ends up crashing and burning just like all the higher ups are hoping it will. But at least they can say "we tried!"


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[Right Seat Driver]

17 minutes ago, Duck said:

It's all a test to see how those 8 will do. Judging by how AMC defines "success" I expect around 4-6 Gp Execs get slotted for this and the program ends up crashing and burning just like all the higher ups are hoping it will. But at least they can say "we tried!"


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Perhaps, that would be par for the MAF course.  However, my previous Wg/CC didn't look at what job dudes had.  He wanted to see how good they were as pilots and bros and what kind of attitudes they had.  One can hope that happened in other MAF wings as well.

[HuggyU2]

9 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

Transition crews are traditionally considerably slower to develop than guys tracking straight into the platform or from another fighter.

"Traditionally" is probably correct.  However, we had a few U-2 guys years ago do it successfully.  

Two were DG's out of F-16 RTU, did real well, and made a good name for themselves.  

Another went to F-117's after being a B-52, KC-10, and U-2 guy.  Less than 2 years there, he wins the Nighthawk Trophy as the top F-117 pilot in their fleet-wide competition.

It depends on the person.  

[Seriously]

People always talk about a certain paths requiring specific jobs. I have yet to see such a proven path to success.

A small sample of previous FAIPs or crossflows that did fairly well:

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1090912/brigadier-general-james-r-sears-jr/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/466837/major-general-barre-r-seguin/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/104909/general-gary-l-north/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/107922/general-robin-rand/

 

Even...

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/104642/general-robert-h-doc-foglesong/

ha!

[Hacker]

2 hours ago, Seriously said:

People always talk about a certain paths requiring specific jobs. I have yet to see such a proven path to success.

A small sample of previous FAIPs or crossflows that did fairly well:

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1090912/brigadier-general-james-r-sears-jr/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/466837/major-general-barre-r-seguin/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/104909/general-gary-l-north/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/107922/general-robin-rand/

 

Even...

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/104642/general-robert-h-doc-foglesong/

ha!

A sample of guys that "did fairly well" among how many peers who followed a similar path and did not do so well?

[Seriously]

19 minutes ago, Hacker said:

A sample of guys that "did fairly well" among how many peers who followed a similar path and did not do so well?

Roughly 10% of pilots are FAIPs. Not sure what percentage of old dudes were crossflows, but I'd guess it's fairly small. Obviously, it would take a lot of time to do some actual research, but there are numerous guys that have gotten far even when they were "late" to get to the CAF. The last 4 of 5 CSAFs did not start their career in their primary MDS.

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/108013/general-david-l-goldfein/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/104966/general-mark-a-welsh-iii/

https://web.archive.org/web/20070509075634/https://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=6545

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/104697/general-john-p-jumper/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/108121/general-stephen-w-seve-wilson/

Some more examples of 2nd assignment CAF pilots. Over the course of a 20-30 year career, getting to the CAF 3 years late isn't that much of a delay. In most MDSes, you're even able to get to weapons school (if you bust your ass). So I don't buy this nonsense about crossflow being a career killer.

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Seriously