C-17 Globemaster vs C-130 Hercules

[HerkDerka]

What about avionics and overall SA? I would assume the 17 has the advantage for SA?

Avionics? In other words, pretty displays that keep you from looking outside.

HD

[JeepGuyC17]

I've been flying the C-17 for less than a year, but already I've seen that there's quite a variety of missions. When you're home, you'll do about a 10 day trip every month or two, which is mostly strat and ocean crossing type stuff, maybe with a few downrange trips thrown in where you'll fly from Ramstein, do a couple stops in OIF, then back to Germany. Then, on the deployment, you'll do 16 hour days flying four-stops to OIF or some OEF. While deployed, I can count on one hand the number of ILS's I've flown, but have lost track of the number of NVG tactical approaches to all manner of airfields in Iraq/Afghanistan. There's also a lot or airdrop going around these days too.

As far as traveling and seeing the world and all that, yeah you'll go to Germany most of the time which might get old to some people, but there are also the occasional good deal trips to some neat places. From what I've experienced though, the "five star hotel" thing isn't as common as some people think. Still, it's nice to be able to fly into combat, do some tactical approaches, and then fly back somewhere where you can sleep in a real bed.

In short, the C-130 probably does more tactical stuff than the 17, but contrary to popular belief, the C-17 is not 100% fed-ex, ILS trash hauling. There's a lot of variety in the mission.

[FUSEPLUG]

What about avionics and overall SA? I would assume the 17 has the advantage for SA?

After a couple years on the 17, I got a chance to ride along on an airdrop on a J-model.... holy crap. The whole "puppy crossing a busy street" is a great analogy when comparing the 17's SA-providing "avionics" to those of the 130J. The 130 guys were bringing JOG charts up on the MFD! I'm thrilled if the plate for the approach I need to shoot hasn't been ripped out of the FLIP one week after it was issued. I'll be damned if there weren't times where I couldn't find the ILS 15 for CHS in the 60+ lbs of FLIP we carry on every overseas mission.

Advantage: J-model

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

After a couple years on the 17, I got a chance to ride along on an airdrop on a J-model.... holy crap. The whole "puppy crossing a busy street" is a great analogy when comparing the 17's SA-providing "avionics" to those of the 130J. The 130 guys were bringing JOG charts up on the MFD! I'm thrilled if the plate for the approach I need to shoot hasn't been ripped out of the FLIP one week after it was issued. I'll be damned if there weren't times where I couldn't find the ILS 15 for CHS in the 60+ lbs of FLIP we carry on every overseas mission.

Advantage: J-model

The moving map display is scheduled to be in a C-17 near you in the future....I've seen literature about it, approx 2-3 yrs away. I just call my "moving map" LACM/RACM, as appropriate.

Right now, CPDLC is the big thing we're pushing.

I saw either an Aussie or UK J-model a few years ago at the Little Rock airshow...had the moving map set up on the MFD. I was impressed, looked pretty cool.

For those w/ the new moving map, can you put data (i.e. doghouse info) into the program where it shows you the course, altitudes, etc...or is that still done by old pencil method and briefed by the PNF, etc.

[Tunes3]

You can see your course on the moving map and can slew the curser around to look at different things. You can also draw Tac Plots to represent no fly areas, etc...but no doghouses, we just put our sticks in the clip on the yoke and the PNF briefs the Alts for the next leg . It is nice to point out the night towers on VLLs, plus it shows the curser in the HUD to help you find stuff.

[PirateAF]

You guys as a community suck at air refueling. I think I'm qualified to make that statement. As a seasoned IP, yeah you could do pretty well air refueling. Basic AC? Forget about it.

I find that hard to believe unless you regularly fly against LTS students.

How are you qualified? Curious.

[FUSEPLUG]

The moving map display is scheduled to be in a C-17 near you in the future....

And by "near me" you mean Dover/Hickam... because a 5 stop OIF in a Charleston/McChord jet from the early 90's would never benefit from such fancy technology!

All these CPDLC/moving map/FFS upgrades are B.S. when we have jets over there with APU's that work 50% of the time. Maybe that money should be put into hardware that actually works in the 120+ degree temps over the summer. It's hard to support all of those software upgrades and the avionics that run them, when you have no cooling airflow whatsoever. (For the steam-gauge guys - the 17's avionics shut down automatically after so long in temps much above 90 F) No fun when you're trying to run a preflight or crunch a flight plan.

I love the jet, I just wish the upgrades were going to things more appropriate for the mission she is truly seeing.

[Boxhead]

It's a to each their own kind of thing. Within the C17 world, those two (and Altus of course) are probably the least popular. While McGuire currently has amusing leadership issues, many of us don't like the locations. In general I think it's true that we have great, if not the best, locations. Certainly better than slicks--outside Germany.

This kinda proves an old point of mine...I have PCSed 12 times now....and EVERY single time, I was told by someone or another that "oh man, that base sucks" or something to that affect...and I was at some pretty awesome bases over the last 16 years.

It is to each his own, but I have noticed that the complainers are the complainers everywhere....the nice part of PSCing that much is I got to see the same folks at more than one location...and they are still bitching.

Yeah, if McGuire and Dover are the worst two locations and there is bitching...then those bitching need to be slapped. However, the "suck factor" is very subjective...what is a bitch-about-able issue in one community is not one in another.

To the point of the thread, Hercs and their crews are awesome in every way...but I am surprised that the C-17 community is not out airdropping supporting leaflets to all their brothers/sisters out there protesting Prop 8...Maybe McGuire and Dover would be better if you could legally marry each other.

[sputnik]

To the point of the thread, Hercs and their crews are awesome in every way...but I am surprised that the C-17 community is not out airdropping supporting leaflets to all their brothers/sisters out there protesting Prop 8...Maybe McGuire and Dover would be better if you could legally marry each other.

Wow, that was a little bitchy. The question was along the lines of what's wrong with Dover and McGuire? Answer: to each his own, but if you line up all the locations, some will be more popular than others.

I agree that any assignment is what you make of it. I spent 4+ years in Del Rio and had a great time. I have zero intent of retiring and settling there though. I admire the fact that you like Clovis, clearly you walk the walk. If I get sent somewhere I don't care for, which has happened, I'll still enjoy myself. But given the choice, I'll go somewhere I want to go to.

In answer to your question, Dover doesn't have any airdrop, so I doubt they could gin up a DZCO, which is required in the CONUS. Though I suppose SOLL II allows it.

The moving map display is scheduled to be in a C-17 near you in the future....I've seen literature about it, approx 2-3 yrs away. I just call my "moving map" LACM/RACM, as appropriate.

Right now, CPDLC is the big thing we're pushing.

Why the big push on CPDLC? I've never quite got the hype. Granted, I usually am happy to make the CPs talk on HF (character building) but the last thing I want in the jet is the ability to be emailed in flight by TACC. Now that I read your post again, what do you mean by "we're pushing?" Pushing Boeing?

I love the C17, the avionics are great. The FMS sucks but once you figure it out it works okay. That said, my little time on a J model...that thing is awesome. The HUD, the moving map, wow. 17 is great, but it's really mid to late 80s technology inside. Couldn't say when the J was designed, but the avionics are way ahead of the 17.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Dover and McGuire aren't the worst C-17 bases, Altus overwhelmingly earns that title. McGuire and Dover are just far less desirable than the alternatives - the best things to do there are to go somewhere else!

[Coasta]

Why the big push on CPDLC? I've never quite got the hype. Granted, I usually am happy to make the CPs talk on HF (character building) but the last thing I want in the jet is the ability to be emailed in flight by TACC. Now that I read your post again, what do you mean by "we're pushing?" Pushing Boeing?

The push on CPDLC is that the technology is there, however, there is no "real" procedure to use it. The -1 tells you how to set it up correctly, but that's about it. I've used it. It's great because you can push a button every 30 minutes (or not) instead of making your verbal position reports. If ATC wants you to do something they can either send you a text message in your Mission Computer Display or give you a ring on SELCAL or the phone.

A few years ago, everyone was using it (i.e. ######ing it up by the numbers) and ARTCC got pissed. AMC put out an FCIF that said something to the affect of, "Don't even think about using CPDLC any more." The upside is watching the new copiglets screw up their position reports (by the numbers again), and the hilarity that ensues if you're lucky enough to have a controller with a sense of humor on the other end of the line. My standard charge was a beer per mistake . Mmmmm...beer...sweet glorious beer!

Oh and to answer the original question: The C-17 is 3X better than your typical slick--palletwise. Otherwise, this is a stupid urinary olympiad we're having again. The key is to take your bad deals and make good deals out of them--bitches!

Parting shot: I love you Herk bubbas, but you knuckleheads STILL don't understand that size DOES matter.

...and yes I'm pissed because I'm not flying and writing queepy EPRs and OPRs today.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Coasta

[FourFans]

Point of interest:

The avionics are not the only thing that rock about the J. Just performed a couple yoke-in-the-lap takeoffs in the sim and got airborne at 40 kts and roughly 400-500 feet. We had to adjust the rotation speed up to 50 knots in order to not drag the tail. I thought that trick was reserved for super cubs.

Thank you mister Lockheed. I love the new toy.

FF

[slacker]

This thread is a great picture of both communities. On one hand, you have a C-17 guy wanting to measure peckers with all the other boys. (holy gayness, batman) And on the other hand, you have a pile of chips from the C-130 guys’ shoulders.

Something to consider about C-130s- Look at the options for C-130 missions- MAFFS, MASS, Weather, Ski, Tac, Gunships, MC, HC. (I’m sure I left some off) If it can be done in a plane, it’s been done in a Herk.

Remember, when they fly the last C-17 to the boneyard, the pilots will get a ride home on a C-130.

My HUD is bigger than yours-

Point of interest:

The avionics are not the only thing that rock about the J. Just performed a couple yoke-in-the-lap takeoffs in the sim and got airborne at 40 kts and roughly 400-500 feet. We had to adjust the rotation speed up to 50 knots in order to not drag the tail. I thought that trick was reserved for super cubs.

Thank you mister Lockheed. I love the new toy.

FF

Once you go J- you can't go back.

[MD]

Once you go J- you can't go back.

Are the stretched J-models still considered full tac-airlifters, in the sense of can they perform all the off-field/LZ landings that their shorter bretheren can? Or are there problems with tail drag, etc?

Any differences training required? Or if you fly one, you fly the other?

[slacker]

Are the stretched J-models still considered full tac-airlifters, in the sense of can they perform all the off-field/LZ landings that their shorter bretheren can? Or are there problems with tail drag, etc?

Any differences training required? Or if you fly one, you fly the other?

Not a whole lot of difference. The stretch flies straighter with less yaw than the stubby due to the longer moment to the rudder. The assault speeds are higher in the stretch (because of lockheed contracts) so not as mushy on an assault as the stubby. The stubby has boosted ailerons- the stretch doesn’t= slower roll rate. I find the stretch easier to fly well and quieter. You can fly the stubby well, you just have to anticipate power changes w/ rudder in order to keep the tail from wagging.

My only differences training was- “this is the stretch its longer and taxis differently. Don’t bang the tail skid, no more no flaps. It’s a longer walk to the pisser. Any questions?"

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Any tips for a legacy Herk guy on transitioning to the J? Once I'm done with this 365-day TDY madness, I'm supposed to go Js. I have flown an airplane without a nav and engineer before too (C-21s), but we obviously didn't do any tac in the Lear.

As for the guys that make the snarky comments about the "pretty" displays that prevent you from looking outside (HD), I wonder if you ever look inside at anything...like airspeed, altitude, etc? Just because it's color and has lots of information doesn't mean you stare at it for hours reading it like a book. Same as any other instrument, but instead of giving you one parameter like the old legacy panels, it gives you just about anything you want/need. It was nice in the Lear to look down at the MFD on occasion and see weather, terrain and my route of flight all sitting right there in one quick picture. By the way, I think having a HUD alleviates most of the time spent looking inside the cockpit.

In any case, having flown the E/H model Herks and old-school Hueys and then a sorta-glass cockpit like the Lear, I'd prefer the Lear panel over the steam-gauge panel any day.

[Coasta]

Any tips for a legacy Herk guy on transitioning to the J? Once I'm done with this 365-day TDY madness, I'm supposed to go Js. I have flown an airplane without a nav and engineer before too (C-21s), but we obviously didn't do any tac in the Lear.

As for the guys that make the snarky comments about the "pretty" displays that prevent you from looking outside (HD), I wonder if you ever look inside at anything...like airspeed, altitude, etc? Just because it's color and has lots of information doesn't mean you stare at it for hours reading it like a book. Same as any other instrument, but instead of giving you one parameter like the old legacy panels, it gives you just about anything you want/need. It was nice in the Lear to look down at the MFD on occasion and see weather, terrain and my route of flight all sitting right there in one quick picture. By the way, I think having a HUD alleviates most of the time spent looking inside the cockpit.

In any case, having flown the E/H model Herks and old-school Hueys and then a sorta-glass cockpit like the Lear, I'd prefer the Lear panel over the steam-gauge panel any day.

You're gonna be looking outside plenty--through a big fat-ass HUD.

[HerkDerka]

As for the guys that make the snarky comments about the "pretty" displays that prevent you from looking outside (HD), I wonder if you ever look inside at anything...like airspeed, altitude, etc? Just because it's color and has lots of information doesn't mean you stare at it for hours reading it like a book. Same as any other instrument, but instead of giving you one parameter like the old legacy panels, it gives you just about anything you want/need. It was nice in the Lear to look down at the MFD on occasion and see weather, terrain and my route of flight all sitting right there in one quick picture. By the way, I think having a HUD alleviates most of the time spent looking inside the cockpit.

joke [johk]

noun, verb, joked, joking.

–noun

1. something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.

HD

[slacker]

You'll enjoy the J. I've never met a J model pilot that wanted to go back to the legacy. You don't have to look inside at all if you don't want to, the HUD is great.

The problem is you're imagining flying the legacy with no engineer or nav, the J is nothing like it. The ONLY downside to having a small crew is fewer sober drivers on a TDY, that's about it.

On the first J model deployment, when everyone hated us, (we were the only MDS booed at the Deid Christmas party) I heard a funny joke- What's the worst thing about being a J model pilot? Telling your dad you're gay. I thought it was funny then, and still do. You can make fun of me all you want, especially when we go smoking past you on the PIFR routes and beat you back before the beer ends. No beer for you, too bad.

[Boxhead]

Wow, that was a little bitchy. The question was along the lines of what's wrong with Dover and McGuire? Answer: to each his own, but if you line up all the locations, some will be more popular than others.

see below...

joke [johk]

noun, verb, joked, joking.

–noun

1. something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.

HD

I'm from within 2 hrs of both those bases, I would love either one, but like you said...it's all up to the individual.

[Wildo67]

I feel left out of the poo flinging, so I'll add this...

If you can't hover, you're queer.

Go helos, you'll sleep better at night knowing that you are a superior pilot, better looking and over all a better human being than those stuck wing weirdos.

Never mind helos, go Tiltrotor. You will no longer require sleep being that you are not a mere mortal, but instead you have transcended into being superhuman in that you fly every approach to a complete dustout even in that absence of said dust.

Oh yeah, and if you can't hover coupled then you're double queer.

Just kidding, but seriously!

[FourFans]

On the first J model deployment, when everyone hated us, (we were the only MDS booed at the Deid Christmas party)

Sad that people forget we're all on the same team. They'll boo their buds at a christmas party but god forbid you should talk poorly about TCN intel collectors that cook our food.

In the spirit of poking ourselves in the eye, the last I checked C-130's never blew up and fragged aircraft on their home ramp.

I'm from within 2 hrs of both those bases, I would love either one

That explains a bit...

[JarheadBoom]

While McGuire currently has amusing leadership issues...

That's a nice way of saying it... much better than what I can manage after that leadership-by-email PowerPoint about PT gear last week.

I find that hard to believe unless you regularly fly against LTS students.

How are you qualified? Curious.

Believe it - we see it all the time. Dunno if it's a pilot thing, or just the way the -17 handles behind the tanker (aerodynamically-speaking)... but a lot of C-17's I see in my window are exploring the limits of the AR envelope on every contact, regardless of Wx, ride conditions, or illumination. I understand the C-17 has powerful controls - I've seen the ATP-56B dot warning about it. I've ridden both Space-A and ACM on Barney, and after a yank-and-bank departure out of ETAR earlier this year (the ACM ride), I'm a believer in that warning. I see crews from various locations due to what I'm doing, so it's not a "Base X's Barney pilots suck" thing, either.

Qualifications? As our usernames imply, Boom and I are boom operators - he's on the -135, I'm on the -10. We've got front-row seats for the show, and instruments that tell us just how much a receiver is moving the boom around.

[sputnik]

That's a nice way of saying it... much better than what I can manage after that leadership-by-email PowerPoint about PT gear last week.

Come on man, you have to share [the powerpoint show]. There are too many world class winners there in leadership positions to hoard that stuff to yourselves. The scarf email went round the world, you can't keep a new one to yourselves.

(aerodynamically-speaking)... but a lot of C-17's I see in my window are exploring the limits of the AR envelope on every contact, regardless of Wx, ride conditions, or illumination.

Come on, every contact I do is a boom limits demo.

[Guest Boom]

Come on, every contact I do is a boom limits demo.

Even the first contact right?