Navigator and Weapon System Officer (WSO) info

[JLoweCSU]

I just submitted my package for the January AD UNT board, and am hoping for a F-15E WSO slot.

Currently I'm a maintenance officer, and obviously I get feedback from my supervision on my decision to get a rated slot. They all comment on the fact that it is very difficult to get promoted as a navigator, although WSOs have slightly improved chances. My commander said today that I would make a greater impact on the Air Force as a maintenance officer, than as a WSO (meaning I'd likely be promoted to a higher grade).

Luke is pretty much the worst flying base to speak with any navs...so could any of you give me your opinion on the topic...

[M2]

First, read this thread...

Then go have a beer and wish you could tell your commander to **** off, as he is an asshole. He is just trying to keep you in his unit as you are probably a damn good maintainer and he doesn't want to lose you. But you are trying for bigger and better things in the USAF and anyone who doesn't support that 100% shouldn't be in command. **** the promotion BS, go get your WSO slot and kick ass, and you will do fine.

If someone is more worried about getting promoted than doing something substantial in their career, then they should go find another line of work because the USAF already is over its quota of career-minded officers!

Cheers! M2

[Guest dumaisj]

I like this new M2 attitude...**** all the bullshit and such. The AF will lose a valuable asset when you retire bro!

[scoobs]

Also what is promotion like since you already have time in. Do you have one less flying or staff tour?

[Toro]

I agree 100% with M2 - your boss is full of it and/or an idiot and you shouldn't worry about which job gives you a better promotion chance; do the job where you think you could bring more to the fight. That being said, I would argue that WSOs definitely have a higher promotion rate than MX offers based solely on numbers. At Seymour alone there's more O-5 WSOs than I'd can shake a stick at - eight in my squadron alone, one of whom is the SQ/DO. I could count all the MX O-5s from Seymour on one hand...one crippled hand missing several fingers.

[ClearedHot]

Just to give another view.

The last two BGen selects from the gunpig both had funny wings (1- Nav, 1- EWO).

Take the job that will make YOU happy, do the best you can in the job, and the rest will take care of itself.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Toro:

I would argue that WSOs definitely have a higher promotion rate than MX offers based solely on numbers.

Sorry, Toro, but your observation of the numbers at SJ doesn't reflect the actual statistic...we're talking about *rates* here and not physical numbers of how many people are at each base. Let's do your same # of O-5 WSOs and # of O-5 Maintenance Officers comparison at any base where there are aircraft without Navs, and there would be a different picture. It's a crappy way to make a comparison.

The actual historical promotion data is available on the AFPC website (https://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/demographi...eportsearch.asp). Some quick number crunching of promotion rates from 1989 to 2004 revealed:

Major: Navigators, 85.0%, Mission Support 82.3%

Lt Col: Navigators 60.5%, Mission Support 66.3%

Col: Navigators 33.7%, Mission Support 45.0%

So, looks to me that statistically JLoweCSU's Commander is correct.

[Guest ggeeter23]

As Bergman, M2, Toro and others have simply put it, in their own words, "Dude, go for it." As you may have read in the thread suggested by M2, most non-rated LTs are up to get the boot and I dont know if you are in one of these but if you are then there shouldnt be a question. Point number two, I personally would rather be an O-3 yankin' and bankin' at 500' AGL than an O-6 behind a desk. You would eventually end up behind a desk but you get the picture. My $.02.

[Guest Navtastic]

The guys flying have cooler stories to tell to their grandkids! I have to agree with the guys telling you to go for it. I couldn't be happier with my choice to go Nav. Promotion sounds nice, but based on my work experience before joining the AF, I'd much rather be happy doing my job than miserable shooting for a bigger paycheck.

[JLoweCSU]

I didn't really have any doubt that I would stick to my guns, and shoot for the WSO slot...but you all sealed the deal (hopefully the board will do their part)! Working on the line with all the troops is very fulfilling, but I can't imagine anything competes with being in the air.

By the way, my commander is great. He said he supports my decision 100%, but was just giving me his opinion...which is what I had asked him for.

And, for the record, my main concern is not making rank...although it would be nice.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[Guest jrossmanjr35]

So I found out i'm going to Randolph and my start date is 15 Aug 06....

My current GF is kinda gettin freaked out about how im going to be away and have no time for her and even when I am on active duty i'm goin to be gone all the time (the latter of which I CAN NOT WAIT FOR).

I was wondering if you can

1. Give me some insight into how much am I going to be away those crucial first 2 years?
   
2. Whats the training atmosphere like?
   
3. What airframes are the most common?
   

[ 31. January 2006, 00:52: Message edited by: Rossman ]

[M2]

Too true, we don't know how serious this is but a bad girlfriend/wife can ruin your career. I had a bud who's wife nagged him to get out of the USAF, he finally caved in and guess what? A few years later they were divorced. It takes a very special woman to put up with the amount of shit she will have to endure during your career, if you have any nagging feeling that she isn't up to that then as Chuck said address it now before you get to a point where it is either her or your airplane. To be forewarned is to be forearmed!

Determine your priorities now! If she is built like a brick shithouse and can suck-start a BUFF, then you gotta make a choice. But you know the old joke about what is the difference between a girlfriend and a wife, don'tcha?

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30 lbs!

Good luck!

Cheers! M2

[Guest blkafnav]

Rossman,

This is worst case but if she can handle this than she is a keeper.

One year apart due to nav school.

18 months apart due to TDY's.

14 months apart due to UPT.

We celebrated our 5 year anniversary 29 Dec 05.

Have another 10-12 months apart for MC-130H training (LAFB included).

She is active duty and we have two children. She has been away from them for a total of seven months with training and one deployment to Balad, Iraq.

Tell your GF that she can at least follow you around and go visit family or friends while your are away. Suck it up for the first 6-8 years of your career and it should slow down after that. Like it was said earlier, kick her a** to the curb if she becomes too much of a thought while you are in nav training. No aircrew member should have non-flying issues on their mind while they are flying. It's dangerous and many people have died b/c of it.

Just my two cents on the issue.

[HerkDerka]

The best advice ever given:

Never made a career descision based on a woman who isn't your wife.

All of the above posts are spot on. While you're doing your training you're not going to be TDY at all so tell her not to worry. She can come see you. However, if she's going to whine and force you to come see her, then call it quits. While you're in training, everything needs to be put on hold for awhile. That's part of what it takes to get your wings. And if she can't handle you being in training then she damn sure can't handle you being deployed. If she can understand what is going to be required of her, fine. If she can't, it will only get worse and you will end up making some career descision that you will regret.

I know too many guys that gave up a pilot slot, SIE'ed from training, etc. that are now neither a pilot in the AF nor are they still with that same girl. Use your head.

HD

[ 31. January 2006, 13:46: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[Guest jrossmanjr35]

thanks for the advice guys...

i hear you on the ::

Never made a career descision based on a woman who isn't your wife.

and blkafnav thanks for the timeline advice...

i think that might help out a bit...

[ 31. January 2006, 13:41: Message edited by: Rossman ]

[Guest aschmidt23]

i agree with HerkDriver...don't ever make a career decision based on what some split tail tells you to do or won't do for you.

[Guest Kawen]

She is probably getting freaked out b/c it is a world of unknowns for a lot of girls getting involved with someone in the military. I had the advantage of growing up with my dad in the military so I knew a lot of what to expect and how the military life works. You probably don't have a lot of answers to give her right now since you haven't started your training, but just tell her to relax. I've been through the being in a long distance relationship thing while my boyfriend was in UPT and she will have to realize that your time MUST be devoted to your training. You will have some free time and she can even come out and visit, but she's gotta take a back seat for that year (or however long Nav training is). In the end, it's not that bad. I made 5 trips out to Laughlin for visits (while juggling grad school at the same time) and everything worked out fine. If she just needs some support from people in the same situation, send me a PM and I'll give you the URL for the air force girlfriends/wives forums.

[Guest Goodole boy]

Hey guys...just got my wings and was wonderin...are Navs like second class citizens in the active duty

[Guest Hydro130]

What?

If that's how you think then you put yourself there.... I love my Navs; always have....

Boo-shiesse that navs are 2nd class citizens...

Hydro

[Guest Navtastic]

Thanks, Hydro, but do realize that it's a tanker guy asking about navs being second-class citizens. In their world, they are. You don't really need a nav when you're just burning racetracks in the sky. Go fast, turn left, rinse, repeat.

...and how would boobs know?

[Guest Hydro130]

Originally posted by Navtastic:

Thanks, Hydro, but do realize that it's a tanker guy asking about navs being second-class citizens. In their world, they are. You don't really need a nav when you're just burning racetracks in the sky. Go fast, turn left, rinse, repeat.

...and how would boobs know?

Much of the best of my Lead upgrade was from old-school Navs... Some of my best friends and fellow Patches are Navs...

Good folks, no question. That why we make a good team.....

Hydro

[Guest scottaxelson]

All I gotta say is that in the Buff, overall we are treated well. Patch wearing offenders are very highly regarded. Im not an EW but I dont think they get the respect the navs get in our world.(And I wish they would get more respect) I wont say we are 2nd class citizens but the pilots are generally looked as being the top guys. But thats the AF. Im just happy to be rated, not have to worry about being force shaped and I get to blow stuff up for a living. I have no complaints...ok well maybe a window down stairs for us...I like to see the sun occassionally....

[Guest sickels101]

I'd like to second what anav said about the Buff. I think in the Buff the rank structure in the plane goes something like this:

Aircraft Commander

Radar Navigator

Co-Pilot

Navigator

EW

Its a good community and its not a pissing contest like some others I have heard about. Navs (I'm sure anav will vouch) will actually dictate our mission and what the pilots need to do and give us the proverbial carrot dangling on the stick. But like anything, you got to have a pecking order.

[Guest sickels101]

You can disagree with me all day but it doesn't negate the fact that there is still one. I even tried to elude that the Nav is more important than the pilot's when it comes to the mission. I don't drop the bombs they do. The original question was are nav's second class citizens. No, they are not, but they aren't on the top of the food chain either.

[Guest Ace__Pilot]

Patch wearing offenders are very highly regarded

1) Excuse my naivety...what does patch wearing mean?

2) I don't know about the 135 guys, but in the 10 the only time we ever burn holes in the sky is in the desert...which we only do an average of one 60-day deployment a year (if that). The rest of our missions include dragging fighters over the pond, hauling cargo, and DVs.