Navigator and Weapon System Officer (WSO) info

[Guest scottaxelson]

Ace_Pilot - A patch wearer means you have graduated from USAF Weapons School. You replace whatever patch you normally wear on your left shoulder with the Weapons School patch. From that moment forward you will make sure everyone notices your patch when you walk into the room. Its even allowed to dip that shoulder to show the "weight" that patch carries.

SNTS - I would agree with your order on the buff. The AC and Radar are normally the senior officers on the ship. (EW it varies) But the goal of the buff is to put warheads on foreheads so hence why the offenders carry a lot of weight in the buff. Its hard to say there is a deffinitve pecking order. From my experience, it comes down to how knowledge you are about your job and does your crew respect you. Ive been on plenty of flights where it has seemed I was in control, or even the EW (very rare). Normally though I would say the AC is your head honcho. I think its 2 different worlds between the 130s and the buffs so its hard to compare. But getting back to the original point, I am deffinatly not 2nd rate, Im just not a pilot. (not yet...)

[scawtiedog]

Originally posted by Ace__Pilot:

2) I don't know about the 135 guys, but in the 10 the only time we ever burn holes in the sky is in the desert...which we only do an average of one 60-day deployment a year (if that). The rest of our missions include dragging fighters over the pond, hauling cargo, and DVs.

Wow, 60 days a year. I know I'll be gone at least 120 between now and Christmas, and we haven't even seen what next year's schedule looks like.

[Guest ChunksB1WSO]

In the Bone communtiy there is little if any distinction betweent pilots and WSO's. We all consider ourselves "Aircrew". Occasionally we get a new pilot who thinks they're above the WSO's, but that attitude is quickly crushed (usually by the older pilots!). The crew concept is big in our community

WSO's also play a role as Mission Leads (single or 2 ship) or even Mission Commanders (complete strike package). It's not at all unusual for a WSO to be the dude talking with the CAOC, coordinating SEAD packages (happened quite a bit in OIF), or talking with ground troops.

[Guest SpookyG8tr]

Goodole boy-

Only treated like a second class citizen if YOU allow it. Know your stuff, keep your eyes open and mouth shut for awhile. Ask if you don't know. After that, you'll be good to go.

[Guest ShadowNav090]

Back to the Original Topic...

Goodole Boy,

When you get to the 909th, walk across the street to the 17th SOS and ask for "Tiny" and I will introduce you to how Navs in AFSOC are treated. One Team, One Fight. But if you are on the outside looking in as Big Blue Does.... I'm just a Nav and there are too many of us so the pipeline is getting smaller.

-R17

[Guest ryan04]

New to the site

I have a question about some jobs I see posted on www.goang.com

What exactly other than the website description is a day in the life like for a "C130 RECONNAISSANCE SURVEILLANCE/ELECTRONIC WARFARE NAVIGATOR (12RxD/F)"

And how much different is this from a regular Navigator?

Heres some back ground info.

I'm a SSgt in the Air Guard. I have a Masters Degree, and a private pilot's license and would like to get into an aviation (flying) career field. With my contacts my vision is 20/20 however with out them I dont meet the vision requirements for a pilot but I do meet the requirments for a navigator.

So, do I try and apply for pilot slots hoping for a waiver? or do I shoot for the navigator titles just to have a better chance at a rated-flyer AFSC.

Are there any Navs or WSO's, EWO's out there can give a descripton of there typical day at work?, do you ever get to fly? if you are a traditional Guardsman what kind of civilian jobs can Nav, WSO, EWO training set you up for?

Any comments would help. I have searched all over the internet and have not found that much detailed info other than the descriptions on www.goang.com and about.com

Thanks

Rich

[PET-Shot]

What state or unit was this posting for? Even though they fall under the same AFSC (12R), Reconnaissance Navs have completely different jobs from Reconnaissance EWOs? If this is for the PA Air Guard, then they fly the EC-130J COMMANDO SOLO. I don't believe the EC-130J has a panel Nav station, so I would imagine the only 12Rs that they have are EWO types.

https://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=182

[JVBFLY]

Are there any Navs or WSO's, EWO's out there can give a descripton of there typical day at work?, do you ever get to fly? if you are a traditional Guardsman what kind of civilian jobs can Nav, WSO, EWO training set you up for?

Thanks

Rich

Sure, you can't be an airline pilot with only a nav rating, but as a traditional guy, what do you want your civilian job to be? No door is closed to you just because you are a nav, but you could do whatever you want with your full-time life. You could work any government job, teacher, firefighter, corporate executive...this one is up to you man! Folks always say navigators can't find jobs in the "after-life", but I have never met an ex-nav that said, "I just couldn't find a job because I was a nav and not a pilot." Obviously if you want to fly airplanes the rest of your life, there are very few civilian navigator jobs. But if you are just talking some sort of work, then there are so many jobs in this world, you will find one.

As far as the job description, I was never a C-130 nav, so I can't help you there. But I can tell you that other recon navs and electronic warfare officers are grouped together under one AFSC. I assume the posting you are looking at is simply an ad for either navigators or electronic warfare officers. If you go to nav school, then that would be a decision you make while there if on active duty. I am not sure how the guard hires navs/EWs. Good luck to you.

[PET-Shot]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there are 2 ways the Guard fills rated flyer positions. (1) The individual must be previously qualified (ie have already completed training and earned their wings while on Active Duty or Guard/Reserves for another unit) or (2) Hire new applicants and send them through training to commission and/or obtain their wings.

Sometimes units only look to hire individuals through one means or the other, not always both, so you need to know what kind of individual they are looking to hire. In your instance, they would have to be willing to hire the new guy and send you through training.

I can tell you about Nav/EWO school if you'd like. Though I am an RC-135 EWO (12RxH) so my operational mission would be far different from a 130 EWO and I am not sure if we have any EC-130J guys on this board. I know everyone here will do what they can to help answer your questions with our combined knowledge.

[GreasySideUp]

Welcome to the forum. What is your vision without contacts? Search in the medical forum for vision requirements, waivers and PRK. Might be able to land a slot with a waiver and most likely with PRK. (Do a ton of research before that last option - there is a ton of info here if you do go that route.)

Good luck,

-j

[Guest Rivet200]

I am not a Nav but I do fly on the EC-130J Commando Solo. The EC-130J flies with two (NAV's) on mission flights. There is a Flight Systems Officer (NAV) on the flight deck and a Mission Systems Officer (EWO) in the mission compartment. The Flight Systems Officer monitors/operates the defensive systems and assists the pilots in planning. The Mission Systems Officer supervises the Mission Crew in performing radio and television broadcasts. Currently, the NAV section is trying to qualify all NAV's in both FSO and MSO duties. If you are interested in a NAV type position with the unit I can put you in touch with the right people. Good luck in your pursuits.

[Guest ryan04]

I am not a Nav but I do fly on the EC-130J Commando Solo. The EC-130J flies with two (NAV's) on mission flights. There is a Flight Systems Officer (NAV) on the flight deck and a Mission Systems Officer (EWO) in the mission compartment. The Flight Systems Officer monitors/operates the defensive systems and assists the pilots in planning. The Mission Systems Officer supervises the Mission Crew in performing radio and television broadcasts. Currently, the NAV section is trying to qualify all NAV's in both FSO and MSO duties. If you are interested in a NAV type position with the unit I can put you in touch with the right people. Good luck in your pursuits.

Rivet200

Thanks for the reply. Actually I have mailed an application packet to the PA ANG in response to their postings on this baseops site. And was told that a Board date was not chosen yet.

When you say NAV type positons, what do you mean by "NAV type"? Do you go to UNT first and then to the schools for FSO and MSO? If so, once you are a navigator or EWO, MSO, FSO is your job transferrable to other Navigator positions in other units?

You mentioned that your unit is trying to qualify your Navs in both FSO and MSO duties. So basically these positions are all considered or start off as Navigators?

Are you with the PA ANG? is this the only unit that has the EC-130J Commando Solo?

Thanks for any info? Trying to make some career changes here.

[Guest ryan04]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there are 2 ways the Guard fills rated flyer positions. (1) The individual must be previously qualified (ie have already completed training and earned their wings while on Active Duty or Guard/Reserves for another unit) or (2) Hire new applicants and send them through training to commission and/or obtain their wings.

Sometimes units only look to hire individuals through one means or the other, not always both, so you need to know what kind of individual they are looking to hire. In your instance, they would have to be willing to hire the new guy and send you through training.

I can tell you about Nav/EWO school if you'd like. Though I am an RC-135 EWO (12RxH) so my operational mission would be far different from a 130 EWO and I am not sure if we have any EC-130J guys on this board. I know everyone here will do what they can to help answer your questions with our combined knowledge.

Yes I have been searching on baseops.net for units hiring UPT/UNT. If you have a minute could you tell me about the Nav/EWO schools? how long, where, time of the year, if your married can you bring your wife?

Anything you are willing to share is appreciated.

Thanks

Rich

[Guest Rivet200]

Rivet200

Thanks for the reply. Actually I have mailed an application packet to the PA ANG in response to their postings on this baseops site. And was told that a Board date was not chosen yet.

When you say NAV type positons, what do you mean by "NAV type"? Do you go to UNT first and then to the schools for FSO and MSO? If so, once you are a navigator or EWO, MSO, FSO is your job transferrable to other Navigator positions in other units?

You mentioned that your unit is trying to qualify your Navs in both FSO and MSO duties. So basically these positions are all considered or start off as Navigators?

Are you with the PA ANG? is this the only unit that has the EC-130J Commando Solo?

Thanks for any info? Trying to make some career changes here.

Yes I am in the PA ANG with the 193 SOW. Yes, you would still go to UNT first and then eventually EWO school. The FSO is a NAV but they dont do the same type of NAV duties that a regular C-130 NAV would do. The FSO runs the defensive gear, coordinates air refueling, loads the radios, assists in planning. Since we have C-130J's a lot of the traditional NAV duties are handled by the pilots and the aircraft's nav systems. The MSO's are also Nav's but additional training as EWO's. Other than UNT and EWO school, all airframe specific training is done at home station. As far as transferability, once you have those Nav Wings, you could go to any unit that employs Navs. Having the added bonus of EWO training might look good on your resume for future assignments. A lot of our FSO/MSO's serve as Liason Officers in the Air Operations Center while we are deployed. If you got any other questions about the EC-130J or the unit, let me know.

[Guest Matt Damon]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what a Navs and EWOs do these days. And for good reason there is hardly any information about it anywhere. It looks like there are some other EWOs on here that are putting out some good info. I am in the final phases of EWO training down in San Antonio this is all just my observations and some facts thrown in too.

Dudes that will wear the 'Navigator' wings that are not WSOs (WSOs of course flying in the back seat of F-15 and in the back of B-1s) will start training at the same time in the same class (appox 15 a year), much like pilot training. About 2/3 of the way through training there is a "Scarf Drop" once again this is much like a pilot training's track select. The class will then be split in to traditional Panel Navs and EWOs (Electronic Warfare Officers). Panel Navs for the most part are just that making sure that the airplane gets from point A to B while dropping supplies and the such. Navs fly on many airplanes from B-52s to Spec Ops to Slick C-130s. EWOs on the other hand are more specialized mainly in guess what...yup Electronic Warfare.

Electronic Warfare (EW) has many facets, but mainly what they do is mess with people's shit and protect the aircraft. They jack bad guys lives up by messing with their radars, and deceiving them in one form or another. Possibly the more important mission is self protect. Protecting the aircraft in a hostile zone is a full time job that requires expertise in enemy systems as well as an intimate understanding of your abilities. Finally, there is one other type of EWO and they make up about 1/3 to 1/2 of the force and that is the dudes on reconnaissance aircraft. Their main job is to learn all about other countries whether that be in peace or war time. I think a lot of information is not out there about EWOs because there aren't a lot of them and what they do is almost 100% secret. By the way EWOs fly on only a few aircraft: B-52, Spec Ops, EC-130, RC-135 and maybe another one that I forgot about. Oh and newly winged B-1 WSOs come through here to get their EW training, but the B-1 is not an option for anyone that started at Randolph.

I saw some things that I didn't understand like what is a Recon Nav? As far as I know there is no such thing. And so far as all of these other acronyms: FSO, MSO those are aircraft specific and ultimately they will fall into the two broader categories: Nav, EWO. Also as far as I know there interchanging between aircraft is not easy normally in this world you will stick to one airplane for your career with exceptions of course. There are plenty of jobs for both career fields after their service is up. For example Navs become used car dealers and crack pushers. I am kidding of course but there are no jobs that directly relate on the civil side. I am sure that they wouldn't have any troubles finding jobs in a spectrum of career fields if not only for their security clearance and time as a military officer. As for EWOs they are always being thrown jobs from contractors and other government agencies because there is no where else that you can adequately learn about and employ EW other than from the AF.

I hope this cleared some of the basic questions that you or others may have. But if not feel free to drop me a line.

[backseatdriver]

Electronic Warfare (EW) has many facets, but mainly what they do is mess with people's shit and protect the aircraft. They jack bad guys lives up by messing with their radars, and deceiving them in one form or another. Possibly the more important mission is self protect. Protecting the aircraft in a hostile zone is a full time job that requires expertise in enemy systems as well as an intimate understanding of your abilities. Finally, there is one other type of EWO and they make up about 1/3 to 1/2 of the force and that is the dudes on reconnaissance aircraft.

Wow dude - does all that Kool-Aid they're feeding you at the 563rd give you a stomach ache? While the EWO serves a very important purpose in the self-protect arena (and I appreciate having them on my aircraft), the job itself is very boring. "Protecting the aircraft is a full-time job" consists of staring at scopes for hours and hours waiting for a radar to light you up so you can do your job (and personally I hope the EWO never has to do his job, cause that means a bad day for me). If you're going to go EWO, the place to be is in EC-130s or RC-135s because on those aircraft, the EWO is the mission and you're actively doing a job for the entire flight. Just a humble Nav's opinion, but just as I wouldn't want to be a Nav on an "EWO's" aircraft (i.e. RC-135, EC-130), I wouldn't want to be an EWO on a "Nav's" aircraft (i.e. AFSOC 130s, Slicks, BUFFs, etc.) - quotation marks added to ease Pilots' egos.

I saw some things that I didn't understand like what is a Recon Nav? As far as I know there is no such thing.

Recon Nav = 12R = Navs on RCs, ECs, AWACs, JSTARs

[PET-Shot]

Matt Damon,

Not to trying to burn you, but how is it you know so much about training at Randolph but you don't know what a Recon Nav is (Sarcasm). Especially when a good chunk of Randolph graduates become 12Rs.

12R is not just the Navs, but includes the EWOs on the RC and EC as well. While it is the same designator, the jobs are very different.

I agree with backseatdriver.

Wow dude - does all that Kool-Aid they're feeding you at the 563rd give you a stomach ache? While the EWO serves a very important purpose in the self-protect arena (and I appreciate having them on my aircraft), the job itself is very boring. "Protecting the aircraft is a full-time job" consists of staring at scopes for hours and hours waiting for a radar to light you up so you can do your job (and personally I hope the EWO never has to do his job, cause that means a bad day for me). If you're going to go EWO, the place to be is in EC-130s or RC-135s because on those aircraft, the EWO is the mission and you're actively doing a job for the entire flight. Just a humble Nav's opinion, but just as I wouldn't want to be a Nav on an "EWO's" aircraft (i.e. RC-135, EC-130), I wouldn't want to be an EWO on a "Nav's" aircraft (i.e. AFSOC 130s, Slicks, BUFFs, etc.) - quotation marks added to ease Pilots' egos.

Recon Nav = 12R = Navs on RCs, ECs, AWACs, JSTARs

I think Self Protect is a very important mission, especially for your plane and crew; But I love the RC-135 and our mission big picture ops. Recon -Strategic level / Self Protect - Tactical. All in all, both jobs are important to the mission but are vastly different.

[Guest Greenfeet2]

Question for those of you that are up to speed on the Nav/WSO/EWO pipeline: Is it possible to washout of the API Phase? I thought it was just basic academics (aerodynamics, Av Med, Weather, blah blah). What happens to a 2Lt ROTC type that gets washed out? Do they recycle them into another AFSC?

Thanks in advance.

[magnetfreezer]

Question for those of you that are up to speed on the Nav/WSO/EWO pipeline: Is it possible to washout of the API Phase?

Yes.

I thought it was just basic academics (aerodynamics, Av Med, Weather, blah blah).

Yes, it is. The tests however are not like college tests (or, fortunately, squadron academics tests either). The purpose (other than weeding out those who can't/won't be there) is to transition from college where 80% of the info is fed during class to an environment where you pretty much need to be up on the material (sts) beforehand and the class is for review/help with concepts you are having trouble with. It's not a crushing workload, but if you don't study at least 2-3 hours a day you'll have a lot more trouble trying to cram the night before.

Min passing score on the tests is 80%, and failing a test results in a pink sheet (not sure what the AF equivalent is), remediate with the instructor, and retake the test the next day at 0600. If you fail the second try (or the first try after already having a pink sheet), you'll go to a board to recommend attrite/retain (they generally recommend retain). If you're retained, you'll roll back 2 weeks into the next class while re-attending the classes in the failed subject. The 3rd pink sheet is a visit to the O-6 in charge of Schools Command, he will probably attrite you (haven't heard of any 4th chances recently, but it's up to CC discretion).

When I was going through there was only 1 AF LT that washed out for academics, in their case too much party-not enough study. There were several others with 2 pink sheets who ended up SIEing.

What happens to a 2Lt ROTC type that gets washed out? Do they recycle them into another AFSC?

At one point they were talking about force shaping SIEs/egregious attrites. Don't know if that is still the case. Probably 90% of the SIEs/attrites lately got sent space and missiles; a few others got personnel or logistics if they had a good attitude/rep during their casual jobs/API. Those eliminated for med reasons usually had the AF CSS here more on their side WRT getting the AFSCs they wanted.

[Guest Greenfeet2]

MagnetFreezer,

Awesome information, exactly what I needed. Thank you very much.

This is for a "friend of a friend" question. My friend assumed that as an ex AF pilot I would know. I explained thet I flew helos, and we didn't work with Nav's, but was unable to connect those dots with him.....

Thanks again!

[Guest tonio]

Does anyone know how common WSO's are? Is it based on performance in UNT?

[FireMission]

From what I understand (someone correct me if I'm wrong) WSOs go through their Navigator training at NAS Pensacola, and Navs go through it at Randolph. As of right now the selection process is made when you are actually awarded your Nav slot. This is supposed to change in the next year when all navigator training will be consolidated at NAS Pensacola.

Several threads on this I believe. Recommend search.

[BQZip01]

Does anyone know how common WSO's are? Is it based on performance in UNT?

WSOs go to training in Pensacola. Navs and EWOs come out of Randolph. It isn't based on your performance in training, it's based on your assignment.

If you get picked up for WSO, realize you're going to have to pass the FACT. I've seen a bunch of guys who can run a 9-minute mile & a half not be able to pass this. Make sure you start sooner rather than later. I don't care who you are, it requires a bit of practice to make sure you can do it.

[Dupe]

WSOs go to training in Pensacola. Navs and EWOs come out of Randolph. It isn't based on your performance in training, it's based on your assignment.

If you get picked up for WSO, realize you're going to have to pass the FACT. I've seen a bunch of guys who can run a 9-minute mile & a half not be able to pass this. Make sure you start sooner rather than later. I don't care who you are, it requires a bit of practice to make sure you can do it.

It's not that hard. I passed the FACT, and I'm a scrawny bastard. All it took was a few months of gym time to build up to it. The hurdle of being not an idiot is much higher than the hurdle of passing the FACT. ....Just one WSO's opinion.

[MCO]

From what I understand (someone correct me if I'm wrong) WSOs go through their Navigator training at NAS Pensacola, and Navs go through it at Randolph. As of right now the selection process is made when you are actually awarded your Nav slot. This is supposed to change in the next year when all navigator training will be consolidated at NAS Pensacola.

Several threads on this I believe. Recommend search.

If this is the same FACT we took in UPT,

I only ever saw one person fail this, and it was a guard chick that knew she didnt have to pass, so she didnt try. I maxed it with almost no preperation, and I am definitely not the lifter type... I think most of the guys in my class maxed it.

Edited November 21, 2008 by MCO