Navigator and Weapon System Officer (WSO) info

[Guest C/Prince]

Thanks for all the input... and Nsplyr, don't worry, my career goal is to be in the air period, so getting anything like a WSO or pilot is gravy. If I get a flight suit, I'm psyched no matter what.

[EvilEagle]

I'm starting to think each community is getting drastically different F-35 briefs. I've seen quite a lot of completely wrong info posted here about it...at least wrong compared to the info/briefs I've seen. I'm not in the know, but I do know what I've seen on powerpoint presentations and SIPR, and it doesn't correlate to things on this site. I expect wrong info posted by those without the access, but surprising to see those with the access. I don't really care, just an observation.

And like superwso said, with no real replacement for either the Bone or Mudhen on the near horizon, I think WSOs have a good amount of time left.

I think it depends on which kool-aid you are drinking. I've been to the factory, seen the "timeline" they are on - and the problems they are dealing with. The capabilities as they stand right now are just not all that great - and seeing all the problems we are having keeping Raptors in the air doesn't give a lot of positive feedback to look at the future of the F-35. From what I've seen/heard/talked to people about, we haven't learned enough from the mistakes made on the 22 design. Hopefully I'm wrong and the F-35 is the best thing in the sky, but somehow I doubt it.

[SuperWSO]

F-4, F-100F Misty FAC, OV-10 all show this to be incorrect. Has there ever been a fighter before the Strike Eagle with a WSO?

The only time that the F-4s flew without WSOs was a brief period during Vietnam when the AF tried to put two pilots in a jet. It didn't work out well, and the AF went back to the pilot/WSO team. It is worth noting that two of the three AF Aces from Vietnam were F-4 WSOs who subsequently attended UPT. As for other fighters, there were the wild weasels - both F-4 and F-105(EWO, but still wearing Nav wings) F-111s, F-101s, and others I'm sure I am forgetting.

[Guest Alarm Red]

The only time that the F-4s flew without WSOs was a brief period during Vietnam when the AF tried to put two pilots in a jet.

The Triple Nickel first brought USAF F-4's to the 'nam in 1964. WSOs were first introduced to USAF F-4's in 1969. F-4's left the 'nam in 1973. By my math, that's 5 years in 9 that F-4's flew with two pilots - not exactly a 'brief period' is it?

It didn't work out well, and the AF went back to the pilot/WSO team.

Robin Olds executed Operation Bolo with a bunch of WSO-free F-4Cs, which seemed to work out pretty well for everyone who wasn't in a MiG.

It is worth noting that two of the three AF Aces from Vietnam were F-4 WSOs who subsequently attended UPT. As for other fighters, there were the wild weasels - both F-4 and F-105(EWO, but still wearing Nav wings) F-111s, F-101s, and others I'm sure I am forgetting.

Less than 20% of F-105s had a backseat.

Good catch on the 'Vark and the Voodoo - hadn't thought of those. My argument though was to dispute your asssertion that the USAF won't crew a tactical platform with two pilots.

[Guest Alarm Red]

If you haven't gotten the gouge yet - the F-35 is shaping up to be quite the POS. It will be able to carry less than a Viper - that alone should tell you it can't replace the strike pig.

It can carry six 2,000-lb. weapons and still have two slammers and two heaters - with three times the internal fuel capacity of the Viper (which may be arbitrary without knowing fuel flow...) Definitely more than a Viper.

The Strike Eagle has legs longer than most fighters - def longer than other fighters carrying bombs. AND the gas it carries doesn't mess with it's ability to carry lots of iron (in most cases).

I've had the misfortune of having to plan gas in the AOR. Hogs win the endurance contest hands down, but Strikes and Vipers have the exact same interval between refueling. Having twice as much gas onboard doesn't do you much good when you have twice as many motors and the aerodynamics of an Isuzu Trooper. For the missions for which the Strike was designed, it may be king, but for modern-day CAS, it's identical to the Viper (and the Strike actually takes more than double the offload for the same on-station time).

Strikes are not all that old, I flew a C model back from Langley to LN in 2004 with 2 brand-new strikes - they had less than 5 hours on them. The Panthers got 15 or so new jets in 04. The F-15SG line is still open, so we could actually buy more if the money was there.

Did not know this. Guessing it will be around for a while then. Think we'll buy the F-15SE? That thing looks pretty cool.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Alarm Red

[brabus]

the aerodynamics of an Isuzu Trooper

Nice.

If you haven't gotten the gouge yet - the F-35 is shaping up to be quite the POS. It will be able to carry less than a Viper - that alone should tell you it can't replace the strike pig.

+

It can carry six 2,000-lb. weapons and still have two slammers and two heaters - with three times the internal fuel capacity of the Viper (which may be arbitrary without knowing fuel flow...) Definitely more than a Viper.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm not sure how much is releasable, so I didn't say it. But the above is a perfect example of completely different "facts." I've seen/heard the later from a reliable source, so that's why I don't get why someone like Evil (obviously with access to the "good info") would post info 180 out. Evil's probably right, it's what koolaid you drink, but at the same time I wouldn't really consider some of these sources to really be koolaid.

[FlyingBull]

The Triple Nickel first brought USAF F-4's to the 'nam in 1964. WSOs were first introduced to USAF F-4's in 1969. F-4's left the 'nam in 1973. By my math, that's 5 years in 9 that F-4's flew with two pilots - not exactly a 'brief period' is it?

Just out of curiosity, do you have a source for the timeline in the transition from pilot to WSO in the backseat of Air Force Phantoms? I'd be interested to read about it.

Edited December 28, 2009 by FlyingBull

[EvilEagle]

Alarm Red - one of us is clearly getting the wrong message. I'm wondering if that load out is the Day one configuration (fully LO, no external pylons). If so, I can't imagine all that fitting in a fighter.

I hear you about the strikes needing lots of gas. I didn't put Hogs in the mix because - everyone knows there's no replacement for a Hog. If you are doing a lot of CAS (I'm asking here) - wouldn't you rather have a 2 ship of strikes (with lots more iron) than a 2 ship of vipers? Yes, it costs more gas, but the amount of iron is a big difference.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Alarm Red - one of us is clearly getting the wrong message. I'm wondering if that load out is the Day one configuration (fully LO, no external pylons). If so, I can't imagine all that fitting in a fighter.

I'm certain the higher loadout includes external carriage. The LO payload probably isn't stellar at all though, I'm guessing.

I hear you about the strikes needing lots of gas. I didn't put Hogs in the mix because - everyone knows there's no replacement for a Hog. If you are doing a lot of CAS (I'm asking here) - wouldn't you rather have a 2 ship of strikes (with lots more iron) than a 2 ship of vipers? Yes, it costs more gas, but the amount of iron is a big difference.

Nope, no replacement for a Hog. Everything else equal, the larger payload of the Strike is desired over the Viper's loadout. An additional benefit is the weaponeering flexibility that comes with their ability to carry more and different things. In the current fight though, (which hopefully doesn't drive all our planning for future ones), running out of bombs is not a large concern. It rarely happens, and if anything gets exciting enough to where it looks like a flight of anything is about to winchester, the ASOC will have already pushed more backfill than is probably needed, to hawk the fight and wait for a handoff. Not trying to bash on the Strike though; the wider capes it brings are certainly an asset, but sometimes that 30K offload is a pretty steep price.

[brabus]

Right now in Afghanistan the strikes carry one more bomb than the viper. Yes it's one more bomb, but it's not "lots more iron." Then again, once we (USAF in general) start readily carrying SDBs, the strikes are going to rain a shitload of pain.

[FireMission]

They've actually got 2 more bombs...they're trucking around 2xGBU-12, 3xGBU-38, and 1xGBU-31 (...in addition to a lot of dead weight: 3x1 missiles, 500 BB's and 1x trunk monkey...shit, wrong thread!, I keed, I keed).

You're right, it's only 1 more -38, but the -31 is the real crowd pleaser.

Anyone see any OPSEC concerns here? Spouting out current SCLs? Maybe I'm just sensitive (STS).

[skinny]

Can you gentlemen give me a no bull shit opinion on 15E's vs. AFSOC? Mission, lifestyle, pros and cons, etc.

Since I first got picked up for CSO, 15E's were at the top of my wish list but the more I think about it, AFSOC sounds like a pretty kick ass and rewarding experience too. Vielen danke. Cheers...

[nsplayr]

Can you gentlemen give me a no bull shit opinion on 15E's vs. AFSOC? Mission, lifestyle, pros and cons, etc.

Since I first got picked up for CSO, 15E's were at the top of my wish list but the more I think about it, AFSOC sounds like a pretty kick ass and rewarding experience too. Vielen danke. Cheers...

I can say that AFSOC has treated me well so far. Good dudes, herbie is nice, freaking fun and challenging mission, already stamping new countries on my passport less than a year after getting wings. The actual flying is probably not as fun as mudhens (ymmv), but other than that no complaints so far. You'd be lucky with either so just work hard and put both at the top of your wish list.

Feel free to update this thread on happenings at P-cola since it's a whole new ballgame. Good luck & PM if you want to ask more specifics.

Edited January 3, 2010 by nsplayr

[drewpey]

Can you gentlemen give me a no bull shit opinion on 15E's vs. AFSOC? Mission, lifestyle, pros and cons, etc.

Since I first got picked up for CSO, 15E's were at the top of my wish list but the more I think about it, AFSOC sounds like a pretty kick ass and rewarding experience too. Vielen danke. Cheers...

As far as mission and lifestyle there's quite a plethora of experiences between the different AFSOC platforms, so it would be difficult to compare "15Es vs AFSOC".

I will add in a few cents on AFSOC pros:

AFSOC has several platforms which use CSOs, and moving in between them is completely doable, and in many cases even encouraged (for career broadening, etc.) Even moving outside of AFSOC is entirely possible if it's not for you, however it's a one-way door, and AFSOC generally views it as you burning their bridge.

As far as career length, either will be around for many years, beyond your career definitely. However, AFSOC will be the last command to take CSOs out of the air.

I would ask a E guy about ops-to-ops opportunities. The way I understand it going from an operational tour to another operational tour is difficult, and you are expected to "do your time" in another capacity (white jet, staff). In AFSOC it's entirely possible to keep flying the line for several assignments, if that's what you desire.

All I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask if you have specific questions...

[Dupe]

I've loved being a F-15E WSO. However, comparing the F-15E world to AFSOC is like comparing apples to ox carts. Its easier to simply talk to the pros and cons of each and let you decide.

Pros:

The biggest pro to the F-15E is how the AF has continued to add new technology and upgrades to the platform. The F-15E started as a "one-pass, haul-ass" replacement for the F-111 back in the late 80s, but has since grown to become one of the most versitle fighters in the Air Force. Mother Blue has added one new sensor or weapon to the F-15E once a year since 9/11. As a result, WSOs entering the B-course at Seymour now have to go through a "sensor employment" course before touching or talking about the mighty Strike Eagle. The F-15E can drop most of the munitions in the Air Force's inventory. If your idea of a good time is to train to drive an AGM-130 through the second window on the top floor of the enemy network center, employ 28 small diameter bombs at one time, guiding a laser guided bomb to a motorcycle in the Afghan mountains, or rapidly target insurgent positions using a sniper pod to JDAM coordinate hand-off, then the F-15E is your airframe.

Fighters, due to their increased need for complicated maintainance, are limited to deployments no longer than about 5 months. As a result, your deployment schedule is very predictable and pretty much capped at 5 months. There are always other TDYs, but the "pack your bags...you're leaving at 5am tomorrow" phone call is rare at best.

Cons:

A fighter squadron has much higher expectations of you than the rest of the Air Force. It is pretty much expected that you will work for at least 12 hours a day and work a half day on the weekend. There's no time-clock at the entry to the squadron and nobody tells you when to show or leave other than what's printed on the daily schedule. Still, to be effective in the jet and capable in your non-flying job, you'll really need to give up alot more of your life than others in the Air Force do. The fact that the finance office is only open from 9 to 2 while you managed to be at work from 6am to 8pm will be a never-ending source of frustration in your life.

The F-15E only has three bases now: Seymour-Johnson, RAF Lakenheath, and Mountain home. There's no gigs with the guard and the few reserve jobs that exist only exist at Seymour. I saw the few bases availible to me as a con, but the ability to camp out at Seymour for nearly half a career may be a positive for some.

Follow-on Assignments:

It was mentioned that "Ops-to-ops" assignments were rare in the F-15E. That's true, but in our world, an "Ops-to-Ops" assignment is one where you go from one comabt fighter squadron to another. It is easy to spend an entire career flying if that's your desire. Outside of the line squadrons, instructing at the FTU at Seymour Johnson is a very common second assignment. Others include teaching at P-cola, flying Prowlers, and doing an ALO gig. The needs of the Air Force are changing rapidly, so I'd expect the second assignment picture for dudes of your age group to be very different than it was for those in my age group. I would expect the NSA/U-28/OA-X type asignments to expand for F-15E WSOs as we simply have more and a larger variety of sensor operating experience than our AFSOC counter parts.

[theSituation]

I can say that AFSOC has treated me well so far. Good dudes, herbie is nice, freaking fun and challenging mission, already stamping new countries on my passport less than a year after getting wings. The actual flying is probably not as fun as mudhens (ymmv), but other than that no complaints so far. You'd be lucky with either so just work hard and put both at the top of your wish list.

Feel free to update this thread on happenings at P-cola since it's a whole new ballgame. Good luck & PM if you want to ask more specifics.

I just got to PCola as well. I'm really excited about starting CSO school and all that stuff. From what they're telling us its going to be a brand new syllabus, which they're not even finished writing yet. Only 12 of the instructors are qualified on the T-1, so they have a whole lot of work to do before the first class starts. There are new sims for the T-6, T-1 and a brand new EWO sim for us down here too. All of us should be done with IFS by mid-May. Until then, there's a whole lot of hurry up and waiting going on. They dont have many casual jobs for us to do, so I've been playing a lot of Assassins Creed 2 and Modern Warfare 2 these days.

Most guys are really worried that they're not gonna get F-15Es, which is kinda funny. There's gonna be a bunch of competitive dudes hanging around this place. I, myself am really looking forward to AFSOC, especially the U-28. The fact that I dont know anything about it and cant really know much about it makes me want to fly it! Any AFSOC platform will do for me. What do you guys have to say about the B-1 community? How is the mission? Deployments?

[skinny]

Dupe, that was perfect, thanks! I agree that the lack of basing options is a con but I also like the idea of being in one place for a decent amount of time. Is camping out at Mt. Home possible?

Can someone give me the same rundown on the AFSOC side of the house? I know there are a lot of different airframes that make up AFSOC but just some general pros and cons of the mission and lifestyle would be much appreciated!

@thesituation - sounds like you've been sitting on your thumb and will continue to do so for a few months. When things start to pick up down there, be sure to post up with your experiences (good and bad) at the new school house in P-Cola. Mahalo!

Cheers...

[SuperWSO]

Most guys are really worried that they're not gonna get F-15Es, which is kinda funny. There's gonna be a bunch of competitive dudes hanging around this place. I, myself am really looking forward to AFSOC, especially the U-28. The fact that I dont know anything about it and cant really know much about it makes me want to fly it! Any AFSOC platform will do for me. What do you guys have to say about the B-1 community? How is the mission? Deployments?

First things first. I can only share my experience, but when I went to Pensacola, there were 4 or 5 guys who were the biggest talkers. They KNEW they were going to be Strike Eagle guys. At least 3 of those guys SIE'd after a couple rides. Your milage may vary, but some folks get in an airplane and find out that breathing through a hose, smelling exhaust fumes and trying to figure out what is happening while puking just isn't their thing.

The B-1 is still a great deal for CSO/WSOs (the AF can call you whatever it wants - I suspect the Bone community will have WSOs for years to come.) I'll go with Dupes format because it works pretty well.

Pros: The Bone is a platform that was built around the OSO/DSO team. We have been working since I got there to break down the barriers for information flow, but the OSO still owns the primary sensors (radar/pod) and has primary responsibility for weapons release. The DSO is the only crew member with the full threat picture and full access to countermeasures. The crew employs as a team, but the job doesn't get done without you. Much like the F-15E, the Bone's future has improved tremendously since Allied Force. We are getting yearly block upgrades to the software, we have incorporated the Sniper Pod, and we are looking at updates to the radar that will provide unmatched capabilities. One of the big capabilities the Bone has added in recent years is the ability to mix weapon loads. While many platforms carry JDAM, CBU, Mk-82/84 or LGBs, Bones can carry all of them - at the same time. Another big upgrade scheduled in the next few years is the Fully Integrated Data Link which will bring new controls and displays to the jet.

Cons: Right now, there are three B-1 Ops squadrons. That means that you can count on a 1:2 dwell ratio. Basing options are also limited. We have Ellsworth AFB and Dyess AFB. Most guys love Ellsworth. If your single, Dyess probably won't be your favorite, but it is a great town to raise a family. Currently, B-1 WSOs are sharing the Alpha tours with co-pilots, so there is a chance that you may have to go back to Pensacola or serve as an ALO. There are also opportunities at Eglin, Nellis and Edwards, but those are fairly universal (Not B-1 WSO specific).

Follow ons: This part is also not specific to the B-1. I am currently serving in a staff position. From what AFPC is saying, almost everyone can be expected to go back to the cockpit after a non-flying tour. I have never seen a successful B-1 to F-15E transition, but I know guys who have transitioned to MC-130s, B-52s, RC-135s and EA-6s. Now that those are going out of the mix, I don't know if the Growler will be an option.

I've enjoyed my time in the B-1 and hope to go back once I get paroled from Space Command.

Edited January 5, 2010 by SuperWSO

[BQZip01]

Dupe, that was perfect, thanks! I agree that the lack of basing options is a con but I also like the idea of being in one place for a decent amount of time. Is camping out at Mt. Home possible?

Can someone give me the same rundown on the AFSOC side of the house? I know there are a lot of different airframes that make up AFSOC but just some general pros and cons of the mission and lifestyle would be much appreciated!

@thesituation - sounds like you've been sitting on your thumb and will continue to do so for a few months. When things start to pick up down there, be sure to post up with your experiences (good and bad) at the new school house in P-Cola. Mahalo!

Cheers...

skinny, I think it largely depends on the airframe/mission. AC-130s/MC-130s/U-28s all have different styles, deployment rates, osp tempos, etc. You wanna be in one place for a while, Hurby & Cannon are it for Spec Ops and those specialized airframes that are only at one base or the other.

[Dupe]

I agree that the lack of basing options is a con but I also like the idea of being in one place for a decent amount of time. Is camping out at Mt. Home possible?

In the F-15E world, its only really possible to homestead at Seymour because it has the FTU. A pretty typical career for a Seymour homesteader is Ops at Seymour, FTU instructor, short tour/365 while the fam stays in Goldsboro, then return to SJ for another flying assignment. I'd imagine that flow is similar for Bone dudes wanting to stay in Abeline or some AFSOC types wishing to stay at Hurby.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Toro

[drewpey]

skinny, I think it largely depends on the airframe/mission. AC-130s/MC-130s/U-28s all have different styles, deployment rates, osp tempos, etc. You wanna be in one place for a while, Hurby & Cannon are it for Spec Ops and those specialized airframes that are only at one base or the other.

Kadena and Mildenhall are also options for certain AFSOC types.

As far as missions go, just google some of the planes and read, and then go talk to your instructors and pick their brains. There are typically a few AFSOC types running around nav school that can help brainwash guide you.

As far as pros and cons go...I'm going to go ahead and take off my "quiet professional" suit, and place my flame-retardant suit on before I piss a lot of people off just to give you some advice for your future career decisions...

Ok, if you want to fly fast, and occasionally blow shit up, sit around talking about how awesome red flag was, go to the pointy nose jets.

The future of war is in special operations. It's not to say other airframes don't have their place...they do, but this isn't their type of war, and this type of war isn't going away anytime soon. There are only so many problems you can solve with a bomb. The administration has made their top goals to expand special operations (read Gates' speech about FY10 defense budget). Commanders are shying away from liberal CAS use: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/12/airforce_airpower_121209w/ And the public is slowly growing tired of grand public conflicts...so those in power turn to those behind the scenes, to walk amongst the night and get the job done!

Gaining ground in this war will take a different approach, a different mentality, and a different soldier. This is where special operations comes in. Special operations requires a vast skill set amongst all the branches in order to accomplish the awesome missions it does day-to-day. Sure a terrorist may stay awake at night from the roar of a B-1 at altitude, but what really makes him lose sleep is the fear of the burly bearded snake-eater in the dark carrying nothing but a knife and a polaroid of his fugly face. (see pic) In AFSOC, we are the air component that helps make that happen.

You will meet and work with legends that could never be recognized for the missions they've hacked or the history they've rewritten. You will develop an unspoken level of trust between you and the user because you both know and appreciate each others' hard work. You'll go home at night in awe of some of the people you work with and you will strive to emulate the sheer dedication and tenacity of those around you. It will breed an unparalleled mentality to bend over backwards for the user, and to never falter on your end of the contract.

THAT's the AFSOC lifestyle...

Choose wisely!

Edited January 5, 2010 by drewpey

[08Dawg]

Not bashing the dark greys, but the dudes about to start P-Cola need to realize there are other nav jobs out there (Hercs, AWACS, RJs, etc), and many of them will be filling those jobs. Speaking of Kool Aid, let's not try to drink the "We're all going to be WSOs flying Bones and -Es coming out of PCola" flavor.

[Guest Justshootme]

2...Nav school will finally become like UPT in a sense. your top 5-8% of the class will get pointy-nosed strike assignments...that's it.

Have dreams, by all means. Just don't forget that 'WACers and RJ's need navs too...and will take their fair share from every class.

[BQZip01]

2...Nav school will finally become like UPT in a sense. your top 5-8% of the class will get pointy-nosed strike assignments...that's it.

Have dreams, by all means. Just don't forget that 'WACers and RJ's need navs too...and will take their fair share from every class.

3...but let's be realistic, AFSOC is going to take a little more than their "fair" share for a while

[magnetfreezer]

2...Nav school will finally become like UPT in a sense. your top 5-8% of the class will get pointy-nosed strike assignments...that's it.

Have dreams, by all means. Just don't forget that 'WACers and RJ's need navs too...and will take their fair share from every class.

4

Heard the AWACS and tankers are slowly phasing out navs; in addition with the combined nav/EWO curriculum RJ CSOs should get to do some of the fun stuff in the back (sts).