Patch information (wear, care, etc)

[Guest dpiddycanfly]

This is just a general question that has bugged me for a while:

when you see pilots wearing their A-2s, all you see is the command patch on the right chest and the nametag on the left chest. Why no squadron patch? To me the squadron patch would mean more than a command patch or even wing patch.

[Rocker]

People will usually wear their squadron patch on their right shoulder and an American flag on their left. But if they work at the group, they'll wear a group patch, or if at the wing, a wing patch. It depends on where they work (ie. safety, stan-eval, etc) and what everybody else wears.

[M2]

Rocker

Dpiddy is talking about the A-2, not bags.

It's a good question, back in WWII A-2s could be customized with Group or Squadron emblems...but the USAF of today is too tightass to allow any of that kind of stuff (plus, the Navy does it so it must be ). Things were a lot more relaxed during WWII (no, I don't know from personal experience ), they were fighting a real war back then. Check out this photo...

Can you imagine smoking that close to an a/c? Plus no reflective belt, and God knows some SNAP or REMF will try and correct Capt Johnny Godfrey (on the left) for having his hands in his pockets!

Cheers! M2

[Guest Kumpfman2]

Are 2Lt's enroute to ASBC authorized to wear a Majcom (AMC specifically) patch on their BDU's?

[drewpey]

we had a lot of enroute LTs at my ASBC class, and I don't think any of them wore patches. I think most just wait until they inprocess at their duty station and are actually given the patches. As far as if it is actually authorized, who knows.

Technically though, from dealing with my gaining unit while enroute, they acted like I had no affiliation with them until I reported in (was doing recruiter's assistance program) so until you are actually "gained" then probably not...but someone else here probably has a better idea than I.

[Guest KoolKat]

What are the odds that someone is going to stop you and say, "LT, WTF are you doing with an AMC patch? You still in AETC. Your out of uniform. Go fix it."

Do you wanna know the answer to that question?

If your going to AMC, go get an AMC patch. If you don't wanna pay for one, wait until your get to Robbins (then you'll might still have to pay for one.)

Only one dude's opinion, No one really gives two shits about wether you have an AETC or AMC patch on your BDUs. ESPECIALLY not at ASBC.

I appreciate your ROTC-ism concern about being authorized to wear the patch that goes to your gaining unit before reporting in, but really. :rolleyes:

BENDY

[JVBFLY]

So we have discussed BOOTS and FLIGHT GLOVES, let's talk patches.

A group here at Offutt was recently told by the new OG to remove the American Flags from our flight suits.

His words, "I know why you all are wearing those, given the events a few years ago. Well, it is time to get over it and become standardized (i.e. wear the wing patch)."

As we approach the five-year anniversary, those words infuriate me. I was deployed at the time fighting the "old" Iraqi containment war (OSW). This is the exact attitude that will continue the loss of focus on these bastards! They almost got us again with their clever "liquids". When are we going to wake up and realize these folks are never going to quit? We as a nation can't ever stop or we will lose our way of life.

9/11 documentaries should be played non-stop to remind everyone this enemy will do anything to kill us.

Sure by removing a patch alone does not mean we will forget, but what does it hurt to wear it?

[Ram]

I thought the only guys who wore flag patches on their flight suits were ROTC cadets and Heavy drivers?

I'm confused...it's normal.

[Scooter14]

Offutt=ACC

ACC=Wing patches on the left shoulder

I was at Offutt on 9/11 in the training squadron while JVBFLY was getting 0 beers a day at PSAB. We started wearing the American Flag that week, and nobody said anything. About 6-9 months later, the shirt sent out an e-mail saying it was OK to wear it.

Thanks.

Kind of reminds me of the FCIF that cam out during ALLIED FORCE at Offutt. The OG had the majority of his jets deployed, in harms way, the first 2 weeks of the 77 day shootin part. That's probably a good a time as any to issue an FCIF that's concerned with the number of Morale patches being worn by deployed crews, and that it should stop immediately.

Anyone old enough to know if this shit went on in Vietnam?

[kkboris]

Typical ACC attitude about patches:

Fall 2000, deploy to Jaber on JCS orders (for something that never went down, but that's another story). Deployed OG commander wants us to wear the 332 AEG patch, we reply "we'll stick with the American flag, thanks." Since we're AFSOC, and not under his command, we get away with it.

Fast forward 6 months, we're back for an OSW rotation. The same OG is there, and literally hands us the AEG patch as we get off the airplane. Not "glad you're here" or "how was the trip" or "hot enough for you," but "take off that American flag." Good sense of priorities.

[Guest Pilot]

Why do heavy drivers wear flags? Honest question. Not trying to sound like I agree or disagree, just wondering where that tradition came from.

[Guest JArcher00]

Well because we are heavies and most wings do not want others to know who we belong to. Plausible deniability. Those are not my guys I have never seen them before.

[Murph]

In addition to AMC wearing the flag, AFSOC wears it as well (unless you're a WIC dude). And if I remember correctly, so does the Navy and Marines.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I have always been amazed by energy people spend on the patch thing.

I have had commanders who thought it was their job to do a constant uniform inspection to make sure everyone had the right patches. It was not about pride in the unit history, it was about the "Worry about haircuts, shoe shines and patches and the big stuff will fall right into place" mentality.

I have also had a commander who thought he was a real renegade by defying the wing leadership.

I was at Eielson and all the A-10 guys (including the squadron commander) were wearing "Friday" A-10 patches instead of wing patches. The LGPOS guys, in the same building, were wearing wing patches. I was a little confused so I asked the FS/CC the question.

"Sir, why doesn't anyone wear the wing patch?"

"Because we want people on the base to know we fly A-10s."

"What do you mean?"

"Well, you don't understand. A lot of people only think there are F-16s here because that's all they hear and we're sick of people thinking we're LGPOS guys."

"Oh, OK. That seems like a strange reason though. The only A-10 base that doesn't have F-16s in the wing is DM. Besides, what difference does it make what some paste eater in finance thinks. We look like a fvcking Guard unit with all these A-10 patches."

"Yeah, well I don't see you wearing a wing patch. (I found out that day that my new CC did not like FWIC grads.) I suppose if you wear the wing patch everyone else would wear it too."

A couple weeks later I'm working in the vault after everyone else in the squadron has gone home (and it was only about 1900). We were getting ready to split the squadron on two deployments, half to the Phillipines and the other half to Nellis for FWIC support and then Gunsmoke so I had a lot of work to do. The FW/CV comes walking in and says "Hey Rainman, where the hell is everybody." I tell him I don't know, I have been back here in the vault and I didn't know everyone had already gone home.

Now the CV was a LGPOS driver (and patch wearer) who was flying A-10s for the first time. He was a great shit. He takes a seat and starts asking me some excellent questions about A-10 tactics and CAS and CSAR and ASC...something the Lts should have been doing. After a bit he asks me why none of the A-10 guys are wearing wing patches. I say "I'm not sure, sir." We talk about the wing's history, flying P-51s and P-47s in WW II and Gabby Gabreski and Desert Storm andthe fact that the patch says "Valor in Combat" and he mentions that he has talked to the FS/CC about it more than once.

Then he says "Well, I leave it to you to figure out how to get them wearing the proper patches."

The next day we were on wx hold and I mentioned the patch issue at the Ops desk when most of the unit was milling around. One of the ADOs said "Well Capt, I don't see you wearing a wing patch." I am ready for this and I said "Would you wear it if I wear it?" Everyone gets all fired up and the fight is on.

The next morning I was standing at the door with a stack of wing patches and a brief history of the 354th Fighter Group/Wing. I handed everyone a copy of the history and two wing patches as they walked in. I was also wearing the wing patch. Everyone was amazed that I had taken off my FWIC patch and they just put the wing patches on without a word.

I guess my point is, why not wear the proper patches? I always took pride in being part of the history of whatever unit I was currently assigned. It is not worth making a big deal over.

I always made a point to talk about a patches when I was an instructor at Nellis. I told the students that the FWIC patch will get you into more trouble than it will get you out of. the FWIC patch is just a piece of cloth. The day you depend on that piece of cloth to give you credibility is the day you fail as a weapons officer. People should listen to you because you have your shit together, not because you are wearing a certain patch. Besides, how important can that patch be if you don't even wear it when you go into combat. And even if you did, the enemy can't see it so it is not like they are going to be any more intimidated.

Lots of people at Nellis got fired up when the C-130 guys were wearing their weapons school patches on their right arms and the flag on the left. I never understood why the C-130 guys did that. They got fired up about the flag. I love the flag too. I flew with one in the glareshield of my jet and I have installed a 25 foot flag pole in the front yard of every house I've owned. Just because I don't wear a flag on my uniform doesn't mean I don't care about the flag. Give me a break.

Like I said, you don't wear the damn thing into combat anyway so it is not worth getting all worked up about. Focus your energy on the stuff that matters.

[JVBFLY]

Rainman - I agree with all you have said. I will not deny that just because it is not on your shoulder means you forget it.

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

I have always been amazed by energy people spend on the patch thing.

"Worry about haircuts, shoe shines and patches and the big stuff will fall right into place" mentality.

It is more this mentality than a unit history feeling. This community is actually huge on tradition and many things about it will live forever. Bring in "outsiders", (not always a bad thing) including intel and fighter/bomber types to run your wing and you should expect things to change.

The CFIC patch was also banned - another patch with a noteworthy history. I agree that a patch is only a piece of cloth, and it will not win the war. So why then do we wear them at all? For tradition? Then should we not truly represent the traditions for which we teach/instruct/fight/train for every day at our desks?

It will be interesting to see in the next few months if the weapons school grads give up their patches, including those in leadership roles, because the wing patch is now the standard, until the next person comes along...

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

For what it's worth, my understanding of why AMC wears the flag on the left shoulder is so when we fly to other countries they know we're American or we're representing America or some such shit. I always thought the game was over when they looked at a big grey plane that says US AIR FORCE and has a flag on the tail, but oh well.

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by Pilot:

Why do heavy drivers wear flags? Honest question. Not trying to sound like I agree or disagree, just wondering where that tradition came from.

I'm not sure of the origins. However, it makes sense if you think about it. What is on the tail-flash of almost every AMC aircraft? An American flag. Why? Not to sound obvious here, but to show the flag. AMC does an awful lot of Humanitarian Assistance, etc. When a plane pulls into chocks and all that people in some poor @ss 3rd world country can see is the tail of the airplane, what do they see, the good ole Stars and Stripes. It would be like sending a carrier battle group and parking them off the shore of some country that thinks they want to mess with Uncle Sam. We fly sorties in international waters and make a bunch of noise, why, to let them know we're there. Showing the flag helps with Pol-Mil relations. The same reason all those HDRs that we dropped in Afghanistan had a flag on them. Let's the Afghans know who there daddy is.

Plus, because the AMC rules say so.

[Guest Slilock]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

I never understood why the C-130 guys did that.

Because they're WIC graduates and AMC regs state you have to wear a flag on your left arm.

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by Chuck Farleston:

anyway, I'm also of the mind of let people choose which patch to wear, wing or flag - it's a choice, one or the other. IMO. Also on the subdued flags, what does it hurt? It's not like you can't figure out I'm American. Every other patch on my uniform is subdued, why not the flag one too? I love it when people say "that's not authorized", but is it specifically prohibited, like the black fleece gore-tex liner? What's the big deal?

CF, I'm with you on the choice thing. Back in the day when ACC owned the Herks, there were many C-130 folks walking around wearing a flag vice the appropriate wing patch. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. I would agree to let folks choose what they want, but then again when has the USAF been in the choice or making sense business.

BTW, wearing a subdued American flag is now verboten by AFI and they actually quote Title 4 of the US Code as the basis. As for the gortex liner, you asked for it and they outlawed that as well in the same AFI. So now the REMFs have it in writing so they can make your day more like hell.

[ 21. August 2006, 14:18: Message edited by: Herk Driver ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Slilock:

Because they're WIC graduates and AMC regs state you have to wear a flag on your left arm.

I have never once seen a Herk WIC guy with his patch on his right shoulder.

It may have been that way when the Herk WIC first stood up, but not now.

HD

[Herk Driver]

For a while, the AMC guys were wearing the flag on left, WIC on right. That may have been back in the day, but I remember it being that way. Dudes at OCONUS places were doing Sq. patch on right and WIC on left. I think that most guys have adopted a WGAS attitude and just went with the WIC on the left regardless of what the reg says.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Patch talk is really exciting and all but please indulge me while I tell a bar story...

I remember we had a bunch of EMFH (Every Man For Himself) pencil pocket patches and EMFH hats made after the FS/CC left us in Korea. He had to get back to Alaska to go on leave in time for the King Salmon run. We had been stuck at Ch'ongju the year before for almost 4 months on what was supposed to be a 19 day deployment. He no shit hopped on a KC-10 space A and left us all sitting there. We were stuck in the land of not quite right without a way to get home because our ANG tanker from Kansas (I think) said they couldn't wait while we were on weather hold. They took off from Kadena and flew home...with a comment about mandays and some other stuff I didn't understand.

All the mx guys, six jets and all the pilots were stuck at Suwon. I was the Ops SRO as a Capt Flt/CC. The Mx SRO was a major and he had no idea what to do so he asked me to figure it out.

Luckily, I ran into some AKANG tanker guys "downtown" one night. They were fixing to leave the next day. I whipped out a wad of "juice money" and the furball ensued. By 0400 I had hooked us up with a couple KC-135Rs with AK on the tail. No 2 ADG flight planners to hand us a thick pack of useless shit. We just figured out the fuel requirements on the back of a bar napkin between Juicey Girls and the tanker bros said "No problem, I'm sure we can fit all your shit in our jets." I asked about "mandays" even though I had no idea what they were but I thought they must be important because it scared our last tankers right out of Asia. They laughed and said mandays are never a reason to not help a brother out. I was cool with that answer.

We loaded all our crap and people and were out of there 24 hours later. That's when I realized the power of a good ANG unit.

We showed back up in Alaska to the complete surprise of everyone from the FW/CC on down. The FS/CC never told the OG or FW/CC that we were stuck over there...hard to believe but true. I did make a quick phone call to the home station ops desk before we left but I guess the word never got passed to the big bosses that we were coming home. Everyone was adorned in their new EMFH flair as the climbed out of the jets and the tankers. We never told the FS/CC what EMFH really meant and he asked if he could have a hat and some patches. "No problem sir!" was the LPA answer. A week later the FW/CC and OG asked the FS/CC if he knew what EMFH meant. He gave them the answer the Lts had told him as a cover story (Eielson Morale Fishing and Hunting or something like that). The BG and O-6 were blown away that the FS/CC didn't know what it really meant.

We had a new CC shortly thereafter.

EMFH truly became a morale patch that day.

[Guest sickels101]

Originally posted by JVBFLY:

"Charchis"???

You have to elaborate!

Its almost like a bib that goes over the v part of you chest that shows through the flight suit. You then can remove the Charchi one back in the squadron. Its our little morale joke. Keeps you from bringing two shirts.

[Guest sheep44]

I just got in all of my stuff for AMS. However, they have sewn on both the rank insignia and a big fat AMC patch. I understand that I might be able to get away with the AMC patch, but insignia is a no-no.

I have run a search and couldn't find anything.

I'm kind of new to this. Is is possible to remove patches and insignia from brand-new BDUs withough leaving marks behind?

Can I do this myself, or should I have the tailor do it?

Or should I have them send me some new BDUs without the patches?

Thanks

[ 18. September 2006, 12:36: Message edited by: sheep44 ]

[spit21fire]

Dude, my unit did the same thing to me so I had them get me all new BDU tops because after trying to remove the insignia you could definitely still see marks. A professional might be able to do a better job though.