Army to AF Transfer (Green to Blue)

[xcraftllc]

Also, this is (to my understanding), the primary reference for policies regarding application to the Air Force flight training: https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2205/afi36-2205.pdf

[OverTQ]

-The Air Force does not recognize Army Fixed Wing Qualification

Maybe it has changed but it was that they would only not recognize the FW course if there were no follow on assignments in the aircraft. If you had several assignments in FW (C12 or UC35) then they would consider it. But as I said, maybe it has changed.

[xcraftllc]

Maybe it has changed but it was that they would only not recognize the FW course if there were no follow on assignments in the aircraft. If you had several assignments in FW (C12 or UC35) then they would consider it. But as I said, maybe it has changed.

Yeah that seems to be the problem with a lot of this stuff, the policies evolve a lot over time. I'm hoping that with a combination of the draw-down in the Army, and the Air Force's fighter pilot shortage, things will be favorable for Army Aviators looking to make the transition.

Edited March 11, 2014 by xcraftllc

[busdriver]

Sounds like you want into the fixed wing world? If that's the case, good luck, I can't help in any way. If you are interested in looking into the rotary wing world let me know, I can point you towards the functional manager at AFPC as well as some ex-Army Apache dudes flying the Hawk in the Air Force.

[Lawman]

Sounds like you want into the fixed wing world? If that's the case, good luck, I can't help in any way. If you are interested in looking into the rotary wing world let me know, I can point you towards the functional manager at AFPC as well as some ex-Army Apache dudes flying the Hawk in the Air Force.

Out of morbid curiosity.... Would CV-22 count as Rotory wing to the Air Force

[busdriver]

Out of morbid curiosity.... Would CV-22 count as Rotory wing to the Air Force

I think so, but nothing to back that up.

[xcraftllc]

Sounds like you want into the fixed wing world? If that's the case, good luck, I can't help in any way. If you are interested in looking into the rotary wing world let me know, I can point you towards the functional manager at AFPC as well as some ex-Army Apache dudes flying the Hawk in the Air Force.

That's correct sir, but more than anything else what I really want to do here is make a useful thread that covers the subject in general. I got really frustrated digging through the countless bits of info out there and talking to recruiters that who don't know much about the subject.

By all means if you have some tips on that please share them here. I'm not interested in rotary myself but I'm sure there are plenty of Army folks who would like to fly Pavehawks and might came across this thread on their journey.

Speaking of which, a successful green-to-blue guy mentioned this document to me, it will come in quite handy for Army Aviators wishing to know more about how their qualifications transfer to the Air Force:

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afi11-402/afi11-402.pdf

[Lawman]

When you say criteria for Guard UPT, any idea what those are?

All honesty the idea of staying in Colorado is looking very tempting.

[scoobs]

Why do you want to leave the army for the AF?

[Lawman]

Why do you want to leave the army for the AF?

Wait me or him?

My reasons are mostly family oriented. I've still got enough time till retirement (13 years) to be useful to any service whether I stay where I'm at or reset elsewhere. Plus the way Warrant promotions are going it's getting very difficult to retire in this job without having had 6-8 years of enlisted time to eat up some of that clock. I have to make CW4 to retire, and now days promotion rates for that are approaching the teens and not looking to get better any time soon.

Biggest thing for me is being able to buy a house in my 30s and actually live in the damn thing. Or telling my wife we aren't moving in 2.8-3.5 years just because the Army says so. And allow her to use all those degrees we paid for her to get so now she can get an actual career and not some job just to keep her busy.

[xcraftllc]

Why do you want to leave the army for the AF?

Very good question Scoobs, I don't want to go off topic too much on this thread, but I guess I'll bite for this one post.

I don't want to sound too cliche, but I think of joining the Air Force as broadening my career. I'm an aviation professional. I'm absolutely fascinated with combat aviation as I always have been, and although the Apache is a hell of a machine, the Army's focus is and always will be the ground force. I would also very much like to be an O-grade officer, but when you do that in the Army, you will fly significantly less. (For more on that topic, take a look at threads like Army Vs. Air Force Flying, etc.).

This isn't my first day as an adult and I understand that there will be politics and organizational issues everywhere you go, but I have spent a good deal of my time in the Army working with the Air Force, and I can say my experience with their side of the house has been much more enjoyable. I understand the difference between personal and professional opinions, and much of this falls under the "personal" side. If a unit was asking me this question during a board, I would be sure to stick to the "professional" side.

I'd say the main reason most people want to make the switch is that The Army is a huge, general-purpose ground force, and it's command focus is oriented toward that. This creates a huge lack of understanding on how to run an aviation organization. Sometimes you get really good aviation commanders like Gen. Cody who understand how to manage it, but most of the time you are under the command of a non-aviation commander. Sometimes that makes for minor safety issues, like having pilots participate in mandatory ruck runs (as if the health risk is worth the physical fitness), because the post commander said "all units will...etc.". Sometimes it's a major issue, like switching to a two piece "flight suit," which actually costs more than keeping the nomex pickle suit, and isn't really fire retardant. All because a Sergeant Major thought the pickle suit was a "Status Symbol" and no one who was making the polices knew better.

From a strategic perspective, this issue manifests itself in different ways. For example, the Army will often fall behind the Air Force in some very important technologies, like how we use BFT instead of LINK16. Or our mission planning software, which is basically a modified version of an old software program that the Air Force developed a long time ago and has since moved beyond. Also, when the Air Force literally asks us to participate in some JAAT or CAS training, our command isn't very concerned or helpful at all and doesn't work with us much. We pretty much have to make it happen on our own time by squeezing it in when able. Such training is immensely important in our modern Joint-Tactics focused war strategy. I guess part of it is a pride thing between Army ground force commanders and the other branches.

And yes, in my situation, the allure of a fighter jet is incredible. The power, performance, mission, everything. I sat in an F-16 cockpit while I was talking to some Viper guys about CAS training and sensor feeds, and that is my kind of office. Singe pilot, excellent view, plenty of firepower. I don't care if pulling Gs is a little uncomfortable and I have to stay in shape, sign me up!

But anyway there you go, back to the topic I guess!

[WheelsOff]

Or telling my wife we aren't moving in 2.8-3.5 years just because the Army says so.

Hate to be a debbie downer, but it isn't any different on this side of the fence. It's still the military.

I would also very much like to be an O-grade officer, but when you do that in the Army Air Force, you will fly significantly less. (For more on that topic, take a look at threads like Army Vs. Air Force Flying, etc.).

FIFY.

I know we don't have Warrants in the AF, but as an O in the AF; you also won't fly as much as you'd like, and your flying hours will significantly drop as you promote in rank. I'm seeing the writing on the wall and I'm just in my first assignment still, and I'm having a difficult time swallowing that pill. Not trying to discourage you (you seem to have a great attitude, and I hope it goes well for you if this is something you really want) but just thought you ought to know the culture of the AF nowadays. Flying is NOT important to our leadership. Read around the forum a little and you'll see how much of a mess this place really is.

Edited March 12, 2014 by WheelsOff

[xcraftllc]

Hate to be a debbie downer, but it isn't any different on this side of the fence. It's still the military.

FIFY.

I know we don't have Warrants in the AF, but as an O in the AF; you also won't fly as much as you'd like, and your flying hours will significantly drop as you promote in rank. I'm seeing the writing on the wall and I'm just in my first assignment still, and I'm having a difficult time swallowing that pill. Not trying to discourage you (you seem to have a great attitude, and I hope it goes well for you if this is something you really want) but just thought you ought to know the culture of the AF nowadays. Flying is NOT important to our leadership. Read around the forum a little and you'll see how much of a mess this place really is.

Oh I here ya man, that will be especially true for me since I am pursuing guard and reserve units. Nevertheless I think the experience will be absolutely worth it. Hell, in the budget constrained environment we're living in now, everyone's probably only going to be making their minimums anyway, Warrant, O-grade, Army or Air Force.

Anyway, to get back on topic, a current issue I'm wondering about right now is the flight physical. Does anyone know if an Army class 1 flight physical is valid in the Air Force? I know the process can take months with appointment availability and processing times.

[Lawman]

Hate to be a debbie downer, but it isn't any different on this side of the fence. It's still the military.

That's kinda why I'm focused more to the guard aspect of it. I'm not sitting around trying to leave the Active Army like some guys, I'm just not ready to sell the whole ship yet on this if I can do a job in a useful capacity and not have to spend it living the dirt poor Army way just because I refused to look at other options. Don't get me wrong moving doesn't bother me, but no different than the guys that go Active to Guard/Reserve whether AF pure or some other combination, there is a definite bullet in the plus column if knowing your kids can grow up in the same schools district and wife have a job etc.

[sputnik]

I know we don't have Warrants in the AF, but as an O in the AF; you also won't fly as much as you'd like, and your flying hours will significantly drop as you promote in rank.

It's relative. I've worked with FGO Army aviators, their hours were about the same as a heavy guy after one assignment. Army O's just don't fly.

As for AF flying--luck and timing. I've never had a non-flying assignment.

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

It's relative. I've worked with FGO Army aviators, their hours were about the same as a heavy guy after one assignment. Army O's just don't fly.

As for AF flying--luck and timing. I've never had a non-flying assignment.

If you really want to fly in the AF, there's opportunities out there, but it might impact your career (I choose flying over promotion). I hit 5,000 hrs in 13 yrs, but am now in a non-flying assignment for 15 months.

[busdriver]

Number of hours is a bit of a tangent. If all those hours are the same, it doesn't really do anything to help your progression as a pilot.

[xcraftllc]

Just wanted to throw this out there: If you're an Army Aviator and managed to get your civilian license, you will be exempt from IFS:

"1.1 ... Pilot, RPA pilot, and CSO candidates with a private pilot certificate are exempt from IFS."

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetci36-2205v3/aetci36-2205v3.pdf

[alwyn2d]

Xcraftllc

There's a possibility of you serving on AF active duty as a rotary wing aviator. AF OTS is an option if you are selected and attend OTS before your 35th B'day. Since you are a rated aviator, off you go to Kirkland AFB for upgrade training. In the past, before FWQ was cancelled you could attend the fixed wing transition course. But it is what it is. The AF could possibility use your talents in the CV-22 flying special ops.

[scoobs]

What about the Coast Guard?

[BFM this]

Just wanted to throw this out there: If you're an Army Aviator and managed to get your civilian license, you will be exempt from IFS:

"1.1 ... Pilot, RPA pilot, and CSO candidates with a private pilot certificate are exempt from IFS."

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetci36-2205v3/aetci36-2205v3.pdf

That's an about face from a couple of years ago when they didn't care if you had your CFI/ATP--you were still going to IFS.

[xcraftllc]

Xcraftllc

There's a possibility of you serving on AF active duty as a rotary wing aviator. AF OTS is an option if you are selected and attend OTS before your 35th B'day. Since you are a rated aviator, off you go to Kirkland AFB for upgrade training. In the past, before FWQ was cancelled you could attend the fixed wing transition course. But it is what it is. The AF could possibility use your talents in the CV-22 flying special ops.

That's a good point for this thread. I'm not interested in taking that route myself, but for people like me who are trying to broaden their career in the Air Force, they will have much more time (age-wise), and lot less training to go through. I'm sure the Air Force appreciates the input and experience from Army RW among their ranks.

Speaking of AF RW, (this might be something a little more appropriate for the "Army vs AF Flying" thread); the best single example I can think of regarding quality-of-life differences, is the fact that the Air Force trains at Fort Rucker like we do, only they train in nice, clean, well maintained and modernized UH-1s (they do this before they go to Kirkland). They also have MUCH more freedom. I still vividly remember sitting on the bus ride to training, looking out the window, watching them drive their cars right up to their own hangar and walk out casually in their one-piece flight suits. Keep in mind this is their pre-aircraft qualification course and is meant to just introduce them to helicopters. That's why Cairns AAF is often jokingly referred to as Cairns AFB.

What about the Coast Guard?

Someone will have to fact-check me on this but I'm pretty sure the Coast Guard offers the same policy as the AF, where one only has to make the officer training age and then proceeds directly to aircraft qualification. (I know a Navy guy who did that).

That's an about face from a couple of years ago when they didn't care if you had your CFI/ATP--you were still going to IFS.

Yep, and as much as I would appreciate flying around in Colorado for a month, while getting full-time pay, it's a huge deal for me that it's exempt since I'm on a tight timeline. It probably also saves the guard unit some money.

[busdriver]

I'm sure the Air Force appreciates the input and experience from Army RW among their ranks.

It depends, some good (try to make a difference and do good shit), some bad (in it for the QOL and just coast), some just ornery (good guys but can't let go of "the way the Army does it") and there are of course there are plain old bad-apples (the first three examples would be good dudes overall) in any group as well.

Keep in mind this is their pre-aircraft qualification course and is meant to just introduce them to helicopters.

Those students also show up having already completed IFS and T-6s and if I understand it correctly the current syllabus introduces NVG low level formation flight at the end. But assuming Rucker hasn't changed all that much since my time, it was very much a big-boy program and there wasn't really anything "tactical" taught.

That's why Cairns AAF is often jokingly referred to as Cairns AFB.

Aren't there still a lot of Army guys flying out of Cairns? Like waaaay more Army helos than AF? Whatever, I flew out of Lowe, what do I know I guess I'm old now.

[Breckey]

All of the TH-67's are flown out of Cairns. The place is like a beehive during their mass launch and recovery. The 23rd has the old Army test building and one hangar compared to everything else on the airfield that belongs to the Army.

[xcraftllc]

It depends, some good (try to make a difference and do good shit), some bad (in it for the QOL and just coast), some just ornery (good guys but can't let go of "the way the Army does it") and there are of course there are plain old bad-apples (the first three examples would be good dudes overall) in any group as well.

Those students also show up having already completed IFS and T-6s and if I understand it correctly the current syllabus introduces NVG low level formation flight at the end. But assuming Rucker hasn't changed all that much since my time, it was very much a big-boy program and there wasn't really anything "tactical" taught.

Aren't there still a lot of Army guys flying out of Cairns? Like waaaay more Army helos than AF? Whatever, I flew out of Lowe, what do I know I guess I'm old now.

LOL yeah, I know what you mean. True anywhere you go I suppose, and yeah, they were already in flight school for a while and such man we just thought it was funny, no disrespect. I can definitely respect how different organizations have different methods of doing things so I'd like to think I would't ever end up being a pain like some of those guys.

I guess that's some good advice in general for this thread: Take your experience with you and use it to your advantage but don't assume you already know everything. You'll still need to be a sponge and play the part of the FNG for a minute.

All of the TH-67's are flown out of Cairns. The place is like a beehive during their mass launch and recovery. The 23rd has the old Army test building and one hangar compared to everything else on the airfield that belongs to the Army.

Yep, one time all of the IPs thought it would be cool to line up in a big staggered formation and launch all together. It was about a 10 ship formation that all picked up off the runway at once and flew off for a minute before splitting off into their own areas!