Army to AF Transfer (Green to Blue)

[xcraftllc]

Alright, I'm going to revive this thread with some good and informative news:

At the time of this writing I have made the following progress:

-I was granted a Conditional Release (DD 368).

This had to be signed by the Aviation Branch Chief, a LTC position at HRC (I'm AD). To my understanding, for guard/reserve, it only has to be the first LTC in your CoC (don't quote me on that, it's just what I've heard).

-I was selected by the 187th FW, Alabama ANG!!!!!

This was after I had a signed Conditional Release. It was most likely necessary to have this DD 368 pre-approved, for a unit to even select me. Also, to restate: there is no more Air Force Fixed Wing Qualification Course. UPT is the only way to get in, and you must be in UPT before your 30th Birthday.

-I have submitted my resignation to the Army

This is in the form of an Unqualified Resignation. Again, having the DD368 already signed is a huge deal.

This will be my last post for a while. Please send me specific questions through the PM feature. The last thing the Army Aviation Branch chief wants is a bunch of Army Aviators asking for a DD 368. Keep in mind that I had already spoken about my intentions to my entire Battalion chain of command and my air-frame branch chief before I email the Aviation Branch Chief. I firmly believe that this was instrumental in my success in getting a DD 368, as was the fact that the Army is currently downsizing. Just emailing the Branch Chief alone will most likely result in failure, as well as the burning of any bridges you previously had, in addition to destroying any chances you might have had at transferring to the Air Force. Be respectful, you can't guarantee that you'll be transferred.

I will update this thread about my progress one I'm officially out of the Army and into the Air Force. Until then, thank you to everyone who helped me get this far - to pursue my dreams and expand on my military aviation career. I am in debt to many!

Edited December 11, 2014 by xcraftllc

[Lawman]

Alright, I'm going to revive this thread with some good and informative news:

At the time of this writing I have made the following progress:

-I was granted a Conditional Release (DD 368).

This had to be signed by the Aviation Branch Chief, a LTC position at HRC (I'm AD). To my understanding, for guard/reserve, it only has to be the first LTC in your CoC (don't quote me on that, it's just what I've heard).

-I was selected by the 187th FW, Alabama ANG!!!!!

This was after I had a signed Conditional Release. It was most likely necessary to have this DD 368 pre-approved, for a unit to even select me. Also, to restate: there is no more Air Force Fixed Wing Qualification Course. UPT is the only way to get in, and you must be in UPT before your 30th Birthday.

-I have submitted my resignation to the Army

This is in the form of an Unqualified Resignation. Again, having the DD368 already signed is a huge deal.

This will be my last post for a while. Please send me specific questions through the PM feature. The last thing the Army Aviation Branch chief wants is a bunch of Army Aviators asking for a DD 368. Keep in mind that I had already spoken about my intentions to my entire Battalion chain of command and my air-frame branch chief before I email the Aviation Branch Chief. I firmly believe that this was instrumental in my success in getting a DD 368, as was the fact that the Army is currently downsizing. Just emailing the Branch Chief alone will most likely result in failure, as well as the burning of any bridges you previously had, in addition to destroying any chances you might have had at transferring to the Air Force. Be respectful, you can't guarantee that you'll be transferred.

I will update this thread about my progress one I'm officially out of the Army and into the Air Force. Until then, thank you to everyone who helped me get this far - to pursue my dreams and expand on my military aviation career. I am in debt to many!

Good luck and congrats.

Now, don't F it up for the next guy. God knows there are a whole bunch of 58 guys still wanting to fly somewhere for somebody where they get to keep wearing a flag on the uniform.

[Victory103]

xcraftllc,

Congrats, just said bye the 187th Viper dudes here in the ‘Stan. I’ve got a few RLO’s (O2/O3 types) I’m trying to help out that are prior KW drivers and now unhappy fixed-wingers on a 1 yr deployment. They realize the Army FW course doesn’t mean anything to the AF and are prepped to start over regardless. Pushing USCG to them as well. These guys are also in the Hood.

[DeHavilland]

No surprise some former Kw Drivers are not happy as FW guys on one year deployments to the fun box. Doing circles for hours is no fun compared to TIC and the smell of cordite in the cockpit. Still, it beats flying a desk or teaching the CCC at Rucker. If they wanted to stay in the cockpit and be allowed to grow a mustache when not deployed, they should have gone the Warrant path. Some guys want to be in charge and fly for the 5 - 7 years an RLO can realistically expect to be near a cockpit. Others are happy letting someone else being in charge and staying in a cockpit for an entire career. Tp each his own.

[matmacwc]

Good luck in T-38's, I've seen good and bad outcomes putting FWQ guys through. Some do great, some cannot think past 50 knots.

[Danger41]

You'd better start worrying about the T-38 now that you got picked up about a week ago.

[xcraftllc]

Well, I’m finally set to be out of the Army on June! I figured now would be a good time to clarify some stuff and go over some of the challenges I faced, since this was not nearly as easy as I thought. If you are considering this seriously, please understand that the process is long and difficult (unless you’re getting out anyway), and will involve a great amount of risk with regards to both a future career in the Army, and the shear amount of time and money lost that you have to put into this endeavor. Again, be sure to clarify everything with your chain of command and branch management before you start this, as there is no way you’re going to slip anything past anyone. Basically, everyone has to be on board for your transition from the beginning or it doesn’t stand a chance. Please contact me if you are considering this, before emailing your Branch Chief and other senior officials, as we don’t want to piss anyone off or burn any bridges.

First and foremost I want to clarify that if you are Active Duty Army, the Conditional Release (DD368) is NOT the only thing you need to be released as I had thought. There are two different obligations involved with being in the Active Duty Army; a Military Service Obligation (MSO) and an Active Duty Service Obligation (ADSO). The MSO is usually 8 years from whenever you enlisted, appointed, or commissioned, and simply requires you to serve in some capacity in the Army, whether that be Inactive Individual Ready Reserve (IRR), Guard, Reserve, or whatever. Most people will just do IRR when their ADSO is up. The DD368 allows you to transfer from this into whatever component it is filled out for (in my case the ANG). The ADSO usually comes from some investment the Army made, such as flight school or qualification courses like IPC. These must be waived by the Assistant Secretary of the Army, Department of Manpower and Reserve Affairs (ASAMRA). This will be accomplished by a memo in your resignation packet asking for the waiver. Also keep in mind that Tuition Assistance waivers will involve you paying back a prorated amount of the money.

Please note that a waiver for an ADSO from flight school is rare, and usually only happens if the Army is well over-strength in your particular MOS/rank.

When I started this process, the Army was downsizing and the Kiowa fleet was being dissolved producing a lot of airframe transfers into the Apache world, but right as my packet was reaching the desk of the G-1 at HRC last month, the Army decided to start moving Apaches from the Guard to AD, creating a new need for Apache pilots. At one point I was actually told that I was not going to be released, but after more conversation, I was given a second chance, mainly due to the fact that I was already so far along and myself and the ANG had already put so much into the process (including my FC-1 physical). In the end, the case was made for me by some very helpful people in my branch management, and the ASAMRA was graceful enough to grant me a waiver.

This didn’t come a moment too soon since as it stands, I may very well be getting into UPT just in the nick of time! If you are not already at the end of your obligation, your resignation needs to be submitted with a date that is at least 180 days out from HRC reception, and if you’re older like me, this can be frustrating.

I was extremely humbled by this process. I definitely owe some good people in my chain of command and branch management, because this one almost got thrown out.

[zVo]

You're the man. Great information.

[SirWintermute]

Jumping on this, hopefully I can help relate the process from the Reserve side of things. I'm in the process of doing an interservice transfer from US Army Reserve (C-12) to Air Force Reserve (C-130) The purpose of my transfer is to be able to drill closer to home (currently 6.5 hour drive from my unit) There has also been some extremely limiting policies as far as AFTPs that made it financially unrealistic for me to drive down and fly unless it was a drill weekend. There is one closer army aviation unit (2 hours away) but the current gouge says that unit is consolidating at the same post that's currently 6.5 hours away and it would also require an AQC to fly there (UH-60M). In light of that, and the C-130 unit that is 15 miles from my front door, I sought out the AF Reserve.

I have so far gone about the requirements in a different order than xcraftllc, instead courting a receiving unit prior to getting a conditional release. I first spoke with their recruitment CoC and got hooked up with an O4 that handles hiring at the unit. He gave me the requirements for a flight packet, noting that some things would be a bit redundant since I'm already qualified. Less than a week after submitting the paperwork, I was invited to "come see the unit and meet the guys" I asked if I should be in uniform, he assured me biz-casual would be fine. Little did I know this was all code for an interview with a board of five Squadron leaders, including the Squadron commander. It all went very well.

The next day they were contacting references, and called to ask if they could speak with my Company Commander in the Army. I had yet to tell anyone in my CoC so this was the time to break the news. My CO met the news extremely graciously and I assured me that he would give a good reference. This was a huge relief.

Three weeks later the C-130 unit offered me the position. I took a day or two, discussed with my wife and accepted. I'm now working on a packet for the aeronautical ratings board and will be getting a flight physical this week. I have yet to have anything official on paper with the Army, my CoC knows, and will not block the transfer. I owe no ADSO, but am still in the midst of an MSO. This I believe is trivial to transfer to AF under a conditional release.

The reserves have different regulations versus Active Duty and I have been primarily using AR 140-10 to assure I'm getting everything done correctly. Today I reached out to the Army Career Division to make sure I'm not missing anything.

My few questions revolve around duty obligations. How can I be sure of my obligations and what I might need to be waived? Should there be contracts showing these ADSOs/MSOs on my iPERMS website? I might be able to dig the original copies up at home... but how does the Army keep track of these?

[xcraftllc]

Jumping on this, hopefully I can help relate the process from the Reserve side of things. I'm in the process of doing an interservice transfer from US Army Reserve (C-12) to Air Force Reserve (C-130) The purpose of my transfer is to be able to drill closer to home (currently 6.5 hour drive from my unit) There has also been some extremely limiting policies as far as AFTPs that made it financially unrealistic for me to drive down and fly unless it was a drill weekend. There is one closer army aviation unit (2 hours away) but the current gouge says that unit is consolidating at the same post that's currently 6.5 hours away and it would also require an AQC to fly there (UH-60M). In light of that, and the C-130 unit that is 15 miles from my front door, I sought out the AF Reserve.

I have so far gone about the requirements in a different order than xcraftllc, instead courting a receiving unit prior to getting a conditional release. I first spoke with their recruitment CoC and got hooked up with an O4 that handles hiring at the unit. He gave me the requirements for a flight packet, noting that some things would be a bit redundant since I'm already qualified. Less than a week after submitting the paperwork, I was invited to "come see the unit and meet the guys" I asked if I should be in uniform, he assured me biz-casual would be fine. Little did I know this was all code for an interview with a board of five Squadron leaders, including the Squadron commander. It all went very well.

The next day they were contacting references, and called to ask if they could speak with my Company Commander in the Army. I had yet to tell anyone in my CoC so this was the time to break the news. My CO met the news extremely graciously and I assured me that he would give a good reference. This was a huge relief.

Three weeks later the C-130 unit offered me the position. I took a day or two, discussed with my wife and accepted. I'm now working on a packet for the aeronautical ratings board and will be getting a flight physical this week. I have yet to have anything official on paper with the Army, my CoC knows, and will not block the transfer. I owe no ADSO, but am still in the midst of an MSO. This I believe is trivial to transfer to AF under a conditional release.

The reserves have different regulations versus Active Duty and I have been primarily using AR 140-10 to assure I'm getting everything done correctly. Today I reached out to the Army Career Division to make sure I'm not missing anything.

My few questions revolve around duty obligations. How can I be sure of my obligations and what I might need to be waived? Should there be contracts showing these ADSOs/MSOs on my iPERMS website? I might be able to dig the original copies up at home... but how does the Army keep track of these?

Congratulations and I hope this message isn't too late, I've been pretty busy lately.

I'm not sure what the record keeping process is for ADSOs but I know that if you're active duty, your branch manager (usually a CW4 or 5 if you're aviation) has access to that information with regards to schools, time in service, and duty assignments. Not sure if it's the same for the reserves. You will also need to check with your education center if you've been using TA. Hope that helps!

[Fuzz]

Thread bump, have someone looking for information on a Green to Blue jump. Currently a blackhawk driver, warrant officer with a 4 year degree, it looks like from previously linked AFIs a jump from AR rotary directly to USAF rotary is possible without going through UPT. Anyone with experience or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Helopilot]

Thread bump, have someone looking for information on a Green to Blue jump. Currently a blackhawk driver, warrant officer with a 4 year degree, it looks like from previously linked AFIs a jump from AR rotary directly to USAF rotary is possible without going through UPT. Anyone with experience or insight would be greatly appreciated.

You do not have to attend UPT.  When you submit your paperwork to your Aeronautical Rating Board, you will have to sign paper acknowledging that you are requesting a "helicopter-only" aeronautical rating.

[deaddebate]

I believe this is covered in 11-402. Medical bit is 48-123 Ch 6.

If he stays in same airframe/weapon system, he's treated as a trained asset, getting an FC IIC (rotary only) rather than an IFC I, meaning local medical processing and better chances of waiver approval (lesser standard).

[Fuzz]

Thanks for the replies, anyone have any insight on the chances of someone getting waiver for being over 30 being that they are already a military pilot?

[HeloDude]

Thanks for the replies, anyone have any insight on the chances of someone getting waiver for being over 30 being that they are already a military pilot?

A waiver for this guy to become an AF rotary wing pilot?  I'm pretty sure no (UPT type) age waiver is needed since he doesn't have to go through UPT.  Full disclosure--I'm just going off what my Former Army Guy buddies told me many years ago.

[Helopilot]

Thanks for the replies, anyone have any insight on the chances of someone getting waiver for being over 30 being that they are already a military pilot?

PM Sent

 

[Fuzz]

A waiver for this guy to become an AF rotary wing pilot?  I'm pretty sure no (UPT type) age waiver is needed since he doesn't have to go through UPT.  Full disclosure--I'm just going off what my Former Army Guy buddies told me many years ago.

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question, I was talking about if he wanted to go fixed wing in the AF not just hop over to a rotary unit. That would require him to go through UPT, which then has the 30 years old limit. The friend is just gathering info to see what's feasible. Thanks all for the PMs and Replies.

[Lawman]

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question, I was talking about if he wanted to go fixed wing in the AF not just hop over to a rotary unit. That would require him to go through UPT, which then has the 30 years old limit. The friend is just gathering info to see what's feasible. Thanks all for the PMs and Replies.

Dude from my old unit tried swapping to a guard job at the 130 unit in the area and was pretty much told age waivers won't/can't happen under current policy/needs...

If that has changed somebody please say so because I know about a half dozen Kiowa guys who won't get transitions but are to old to just apply for Green to Blue. Having more options than just helos would be a win for any of them about to start their job search.

[HeloDude]

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question, I was talking about if he wanted to go fixed wing in the AF not just hop over to a rotary unit. That would require him to go through UPT, which then has the 30 years old limit. The friend is just gathering info to see what's feasible. Thanks all for the PMs and Replies.

No problem.  IMO it's silly for the active duty AF to take a prior Army rotor wing pilot and not send him to an AF rotary wing platform.  The AF helo community (both Huey's and 60's) are undermanned (no rotary wing pilots were subject to the RIF a couple years ago), so why take an older Army pilot, put him through a year of UPT, then put them in a fixed wing platform, all when they go can go straight to Kirtland for helo MWS training?  

This is the same reason a helo pilot in the AF will rarely be given a fixed wing cross flow, and vice versa to why a fixed wing pilot won't be sent to Rucker/Kirtland for training.  It just doesn't make financial sense when you're already a trained asset--UPT, MWS quals, etc are expensive.  Also, an Army rotary wing pilot is more likely to upgrade quicker in an AF Huey/60 vs whatever platform they get out of UPT.  

My advice if he wants to fly fixed wing is for him is to find a Guard/Reserve unit willing to give him one of their UPT slots.  

[Fuzz]

No problem.  IMO it's silly for the active duty AF to take a prior Army rotor wing pilot and not send him to an AF rotary wing platform.  The AF helo community (both Huey's and 60's) are undermanned (no rotary wing pilots were subject to the RIF a couple years ago), so why take an older Army pilot, put him through a year of UPT, then put them in a fixed wing platform, all when they go can go straight to Kirtland for helo MWS training?  

This is the same reason a helo pilot in the AF will rarely be given a fixed wing cross flow, and vice versa to why a fixed wing pilot won't be sent to Rucker/Kirtland for training.  It just doesn't make financial sense when you're already a trained asset--UPT, MWS quals, etc are expensive.  Also, an Army rotary wing pilot is more likely to upgrade quicker in an AF Huey/60 vs whatever platform they get out of UPT.  

My advice if he wants to fly fixed wing is for him is to find a Guard/Reserve unit willing to give him one of their UPT slots.  

Agreed on all points and that's what I had told him as well just want to make sure I do my due diligence especially when we are talking major life decisions for a dude and his family. Also thanks for the info on manning in the helo community.

[HeloDude]

Agreed on all points and that's what I had told him as well just want to make sure I do my due diligence especially when we are talking major life decisions for a dude and his family. Also thanks for the info on manning in the helo community.

You bet man--and good on you for helping them out.  Also, you can tell him that out of all the prior Army rotor wing pilots who crossed over to fly helos in the AF (who I have known and I have known quite a few), not one of them said they regretted their decision.  

[stract]

I know a Former Army Guy who came to 60s for a tour (as an O-4), and now he's flying Preds at Holloman.  So if your bud is looking to get OUT of helos, RPAs might be a viable option...

[Tgates]

Thread bump. Green to blue guy here patiently waiting on my scroll to be approved... Almost at 4 months now. Anyone have any good recent scroll-approval timelines or estimates? Thanks!

[magnus017]

So is there a definitive answer? Would an Army Warrant C-12 pilot with several years/hundreds of hours of flight time have to go through the whole AF/ANG UPT? Would the 30 year old age limit apply? Or the 35 year old OTS limit?

[xcraftllc]

Edited: PM sent

Edited January 17, 2016 by xcraftllc
Just sent a PM instead.