Army vs Air Force flying

[Chida]

I was talking to some Army grunts not too long ago and they said they thought that all AF pilots should be warrants just like the Army. My viewpoint is that the Army's pilots should be officers. The Army gets away with paying their pilots far less than the AF because most are warrants.

So BLAB: Do you want more pay or less pay?

[OverTQ]

Although there are some merits to the warrant system, I would not recommend it. They face the same promotion system of up or out in a pyramid fashion as the O's do. They also don't get the same educational opportunities (for which most are grateful for) as the O's do. However you do not end up with the same product either. That is not to say there are not some highly professional and educated W's. Of the ones to make W5 this year half had masters degrees. But there in leads the danger to their rank. They have increasingly had the standards for promotion raised. Some are even attending the same developmental schools as O's though not all are given the chance. All this to tap out in pay of just over what a MAJ does (if you are lucky enough to make W5 which is very rare). One other large issue in my personal view, is that they do not normally end up in leadership positions. When you are never in charge or are never going to be in charge, you conduct yourself differently. All this aside the Army cannot make the W's to O's without a significant personnel restructuring. O's compete regardless of branch within their basic branch groupings ie Maneuver, Logistics etc. And in the end Chida is right, the Army is just using them for cheap labor. Conversely as pointed out above, the O's (until Dick Cody and 13 years of wars) were not getting flight time that would lend to any kind of proficiency in aviation.

[Slick]

Thanks guys. This information is helping me make a decision on which path to take.

Food for thought: I posted this question on an army pilot forum and the they seem to be ok with the lower pay since it means that they don't have to deal with the extra responsibilities that O's have to deal with. In short, they are willing to get paid a little less if it means they get to fly more. There are Officers in the army who are aviators but they don't fly as much and after a few years they stop getting in the cockpit altogether.

Talking with my friends from college that went Army Aviation and the Guard capt in my class that is a former army guy, the USAF syllabus forces you to be a more well rounded pilot right out of the gate. Plus I like the USAF PR mission better than what the Army uses its helos for.

Can you elaborate on how UPT produces more well rounded pilots than Army WOFT?

Edited March 5, 2014 by cdroz88

[Lawman]

Just curious are you strictly wanting the viewpoint of Army 60's because that's only a narrow portion of Army Aviation.

I'm an Attack guy and many of the things we veiw as critical to your development as an aviator are ignored by their field and vice versa.

Example they are very big on formation flying where as we have no tactical necessity because it prevents weapons employment in an offensive manner. Meanwhile we suck at deliberate planning as a community right now where they are very focused on it. Different takes for different flakes.

[busdriver]

Example they are very big on formation flying where as we have no tactical necessity because it prevents weapons employment in an offensive manner.

Not really true brother, you guys suck at and don't care about close formation work, which is important for slicks to put lots of helicopters into an LZ during an assault. Having your wingman in the correct position to provide mutual support during an attack is still formation work. It's just different; and you guys use trucker comm. Trucker comm is so addictive, much like heroine.

Just because I fly a much larger formation spacing than Army 60's doesn't mean my wingman doesn't have to be good at maintaining spacing and geometry, and in some ways it's harder to maintain that setup from further away when you're power limited.

[Lawman]

Not really true brother, you guys suck at and don't care about close formation work, which is important for slicks to put lots of helicopters into an LZ during an assault. Having your wingman in the correct position to provide mutual support during an attack is still formation work. It's just different; and you guys use trucker comm. Trucker comm is so addictive, much like heroine.

Just because I fly a much larger formation spacing than Army 60's doesn't mean my wingman doesn't have to be good at maintaining spacing and geometry, and in some ways it's harder to maintain that setup from further away when you're power limited.

But thats what I'm talking about.

60s in the Army (especially assault units) are big on the insertion profile and tight formations set in particular ways to fit an LZ. We fly much more dynamic. Great example would be pink team, the only prebriefable point of that is I will be higher than the scout in protecting, beyond that my position is dynamic. Where is the sun, where is he, where is the likely avenue of threat, etc. But when we get told hey fly 3-5 disks apart line abreast it looks like a circus of stupid.

And yeah trucker comm is a good way to put it. Every time I bring up joint brevity I get looked at like I have a dick growing out of my forehead, that's just Army aviation as a whole. After 13 years of continuous ops where all we worry about while home is how to get ready for the next op everything has fallen by the wayside.

[busdriver]

my position is dynamic. Where is the sun, where is he, where is the likely avenue of threat, etc. But when we get told hey fly 3-5 disks apart line abreast it looks like a circus of stupid.

My point is that being able to manage all those things and still be in position to shoot when required is still "formation" you still need to manage pursuit curves and the like, whether your guys realize they're doing it or not. 3-5 disks line abreast is stupid tactically, but I get what you're saying, you guys suck at close formation. I remember flying with Apaches back in 07 (so not new) who literally made an effort to get away from me when I pulled up next to them at 1 disc. But why would you spend any time being good at 1 disc flying? Who cares, just get close enough to not fuck up ATC's airspace. I can't drag you through the weather even at 1 disc and you'll never assault an LZ, so there's no reason to waste your time getting good at it, just be good enough to not look stupid when you RTB. More important is maintaining a tactically sound geometry when lead always has 100% torque applied.

And yeah trucker comm is a good way to put it. Every time I bring up joint brevity I get looked at like I have a dick growing out of my forehead, that's just Army aviation as a whole. After 13 years of continuous ops where all we worry about while home is how to get ready for the next op everything has fallen by the wayside.

It's not just Army aviation, 13 years of OEF has everyone trained to a non jamming, non-contested, non- degraded environment. I harp on my students and my wingman on my last deployment, and then on first communication with another helo (invariably Army) I fall back into trucker comm myself. Fuck, Heroine is addictive.

[stract]

the next time I hear "sausage" or "convoy" I'm going to break something.

Why is it the USAF seems to be the only service that uses Joint Brevity?

[TreeA10]

For the non-Jesus Nut crowd, what is this "Trucker Comm" of which you speak?

[busdriver]

Like you would imagine truckers would use on a CB radio.

Like you would imagine the comm would be on a CB radio. Overly verbose when using plain English.

[Lawman]

the next time I hear "sausage" or "convoy" I'm going to break something.

Why is it the USAF seems to be the only service that uses Joint Brevity?

13 years of non doctrinal permissive environment, combined with every Brigade in the Army having Standards guys (super IPs) writing SOPs. Kinda like how nobody even reads the SPINs or complies with them because ###### it.

But hey the plus side to not knowing our own doctrine is the enemy will never be able to predict our course of action.... *insert fuming anger and a desire to strangle people here*

Edited March 5, 2014 by Lawman

[scoobs]

Don't the WO's have it made on day to days hours worked?

[Lawman]

Don't the WO's have it made on day to days hours worked?

Entirely dependent on the unit and how much of a "made man" that WO's particular position makes him.

There are guys who are almost never at work and seem to get away with it but for the most part it's more myth than fact. I've been at work earlier and stayed later than a lot of the RLOs just because I had a job to do. Good example is all the additional duties one pulls in an Army unit. I was the unit movement officer so for 3 months before deployment I was pulling 12-14 hour days being a combination of a logistician and a carpenter/loadmaster because I had to get our shit loaded for deployment. Meanwhile somewhere there was a safety guy pulling 4 hour days because we had no aircraft and enjoying family time.

[Breckey]

Cops are even worse.

Be advised, at this time. How copy, my copy? Tango victor mike.

[OverTQ]

Here is the real difference between AF and Army pilots. AF pilots say "where does it say I can do that?". Army pilots say "where does it say I can't do that!"

[Slick]

Can anyone comment on how exactly Air Force UPT produces a more well rounded pilot than Army WOFT?

[Duff_Man]

Can anyone comment on how exactly Air Force UPT produces a more well rounded pilot than Army WOFT?

For a start, UPT's goal is to produce fixed wing pilots. Approximately a (singular) dude from each UPT class goes to helicopters and, even then, they truck over to the Army at track select, halfway through UPT.

[Spur38]

Although there are some merits to the warrant system, I would not recommend it. Of the ones to make W5 this year half had masters degrees. When you are never in charge or are never going to be in charge, you conduct yourself differently. . And in the end Chida is right, the Army is just using them for cheap labor. Conversely as pointed out above, the O's (until Dick Cody and 13 years of wars) were not getting flight time that would lend to any kind of proficiency in aviation.

Interesting statements OverTQ and as a retired CW5, Army Aviator I thought I'd put my .10 in....

I thoroughly enjoyed my Army Aviation career as a WO.

When I started out, in my second year of college and as a NROTC "Wanna fly jets" guy, a drafted (yes, there once was a draft) PhD candate; Vietnam Army truck driver E-4 came home and informed me that the "Army was letting high school graduates fly helicopters!"

At 19 it seemed intriguing so I went to see an Army recruiter. I was had a "2S" college deferment and my draft number was in the high 200's...no chance of being drafted.

The recruter said "Take the WOFT test, no obligation" I did and when he called back it was "You did great on the test! I can send you to Army Flight Training next week, if you sign up".

I did, and then told my very dissappointed parents about what I did a week before my departure to basic training....they were pissed, but got over it...something about the certainty of going to Vietnam..

My plan was to stay for the, at the time 2 year obligation, get out and to finish college.

It didn't work that way. After Vietnam, each assignment as an attack helicopter pilot (AH-1 Cobra) became more interesting and the development of the greatest friendships....

On the ground, I wasn't "in-charge". In the air, rank had no consequence, as an aircraft commander, I called all the shots...

I was offered a direct commission to 1LT as a WO1 and again as a CW2 while fighting the "Hun" during the "Cold War" I turned both down because I realized that if I did, my skill sets of an aviator would diminish because of the additional command responsibilities. Over the years, I would see bright eyed RLO's, fresh out of flight school who were very anxious to be aviators have their flight careers be overshadowed by the competitive rank pyramid....worked well for some but for most not....

I continued as a WO which much later, made me realize that I had made the right decision...because I became a proficient aviator. WO have always been in a strange dichotomy between the Officer and Enlisted.

While the others were extremley rank conscious we would never salute senior WOs and excoriated any young W1 that did....we were the tactical, flying professionals and made thing happen and got the mission completed but could/would freely express ourselves and call bull-shit when it was necessary. We respected rank but intuitively disrespected poor airmanship, leadership, regardless of rank. Our best leaders were those who listened to our technical advice and followed our recommendations as professional aviators.

Every service has dick-heads for leaders and we saw quite a few but those who stood out and were willing to take our advice were the ones who succeeded.....

"Cheap Labor?" never really considered that, but it was true, but one shouldn't do anything just for the money. The aviation incentive pay "gate" system was instituted and flight pay went up considerably...but I was flying and that took precedence.

Education? I was allowed to finish two degrees while on active duty, so those blocks were checked.

Never be in charge? Wrong answer....finally, as a CW5, and assigned as a detachment commander for a C-12 unit I had full UCMJ authority both in CONUS and OCONUS and the best part of the command, (thanks to Dick Cody) was that it was all WO's aviators and an E-7 Ops specialist; E-5 mission scheduler. A cohesiive team that consistently had an OR rate above 92% (Easy for airplanes) and very rarely missed a take-off time....What a concept! All professional aviation WOs.....So end of my blathering but if you're in it for the rank and money be an RLO. If your in it to fly, be professional and have a great military Army aviation career, I recommend being a WO!

[OverTQ]

And I am a RLO with 4 advanced (no I am not counting flight school) airframes and PC in three (just started flying the 4th). But I am not the norm and neither does your career appear to be solely on the fact that you made W5. Respectfully I think you missed my point. I was not advocating not going warrant in the Army, rather not having a similar system like it for the other branches. As for your statement about being in charge just to be clear. You were in charge of about 3 aircraft and 20 personnel? That is the equivalent to a platoon leader. I think that is a bit of over kill. Also I think you missed the point that to now make W4 or W5 you need close to the same requirements as a RLO needs to make O5 which negates most of the arguments you read in this forum about going warrant. My point restated, the reason most would want to go warrant officer for are changing. The W system closely mimics the O system now. I do not have an issue with W's (many are close personal friends and relatives). I do not think it is a good system as it exists today nor am going to comment on what it was in your day.

[scoobs]

Is it possible for an RLO to stay flying or is is it normal to rotate between flying and staff gigs?

[Lawman]

Is it possible for an RLO to stay flying or is is it normal to rotate between flying and staff gigs?

Stay flying is a pretty broad term. Technically you could stay in Aviation units of your type your entire career permitting you to maintain a FAC status where you stay on the schedule just at reduced hours compared to a line company pilot. Or you could be the guy that is always drawing the shitty straw and doing staff jobs that keep you out.

Luck and timing, YMMV

Edited March 5, 2014 by Lawman

[Spur38]

And I am a RLO with 4 advanced (no I am not counting flight school) airframes and PC in three (just started flying the 4th). But I am not the norm and neither does your career appear to be solely on the fact that you made W5. Respectfully I think you missed my point. I was not advocating not going warrant in the Army, rather not having a similar system like it for the other branches. As for your statement about being in charge just to be clear. You were in charge of about 3 aircraft and 20 personnel? That is the equivalent to a platoon leader. I think that is a bit of over kill. Also I think you missed the point that to now make W4 or W5 you need close to the same requirements as a RLO needs to make O5 which negates most of the arguments you read in this forum about going warrant. My point restated, the reason most would want to go warrant officer for are changing. The W system closely mimics the O system now. I do not have an issue with W's (many are close personal friends and relatives). I do not think it is a good system as it exists today nor am going to comment on what it was in your day.

I did miss your point OTQ! I reacted to your first sentence and off I went! I agree that a WO system for the other services is not a good idea. The Army, of course, went the cheap route to be sure....by the way, some of my "best friends" are also RLOs! Sounds almost racial! Of course Chuck is now SECDEF as a former enlisted guy, so leadership really depends on the ability. Therefore even a "Platoon Leader" could do wonderful leadership things if he chose not to fly anymore.....good discussion! Thanks

[MD]

Didn't anything change for the better for RLOs when aviation was created as a branch in the 80s and RLO aviators no longer belonged to some other combat arms branch that they had to "go back to"?

[Hueypilot]

As a former WO that jumped ship to the USAF, my two cents:

As a young guy I loved flying helicopters and that's exactly what I wanted to do. Being a warrant was fun and although I had a BS degree, I repeatedly turned down offers from the BN commander to attend OCS.

I was lucky that I was surrounded by a bunch of old-school W-4s and W-5s that had flown in Vietnam and most were flying offshore for their real jobs (I was an ARNG pilot). They spent a LOT of time trying to convince me to go to the Air Force and fly fixed wing, and to them, they regarded helicopter flying as "the white collar slave trade". I resisted for a couple years but finally took their advice, albeit skeptically. I almost quit AF OTS because I felt I was leaving a good gig, but managed to stick with it.

Now, I don't regret for a moment my choice. Yes, the USAF is very anal in many ways, but it's a door that leads to a broader set of destinations. There are times I wish I could fly for the Army again, but only for a few moments...then I remember the fact that Army leadership almost always seemed to not understand aviators.

Would I have had a good career staying with the Army? I bet I would have, but I can't say I would have had the opportunity to do what I'm doing now. For a young guy trying to figure out what to do...if you really like the idea of flying helicopters, Army flying is great and it's an awesome opportunity. But think about where you want to be down the road...you won't always be 28 years old. At some point you'll accumulate a spouse, kids and other things you'd rather spend your time doing other than flying.

[Breckey]

That's right... the MXG/CC is the one we're worried about angering these days.

Well you guys are broke 96.69% of the time.