Army vs Air Force flying

[Guest fartman38]

Is there a solid process I have to be aware of during my ROTC years, and let my commander know? Or once I commission, there's a separate process?

Can someone describe it to me, and its level of difficulty/competition?

[nsplayr]

Is there a solid process I have to be aware of during my ROTC years, and let my commander know? Or once I commission, there's a separate process?

Can someone describe it to me, and its level of difficulty/competition?

Process for what? You're gonna need to be a little more clear. Technique only: if you're in ROTC concentrate on A) graduating, B) getting your commission/flight slot, C) drinking and getting ass, not necessarily in that order at all times.

If you wanna fly for the army (the topic of this thread sort of) join the army. If you wanna fly for the air force join the air force, pretty easy. Scheming on an inter-service transfer and/or a fixed-wing/rotary-wing transfer when you're a ROTC cadet is taking your focus off of much more urgent needs.

[Guest fartman38]

I mean do you apply for a flight slot and when you're graduating from flight school you move on to the path of becoming a Warrant? Or do you apply for a Warrant during sometime in ROTC?

[nsplayr]

I mean do you apply for a flight slot and when you're graduating from flight school you move on to the path of becoming a Warrant? Or do you apply for a Warrant during sometime in ROTC?

If you're in Air Force ROTC then you're not on a path that will lead you to being a warrant officer; there are no longer warrant officers in the Air Force. If you wanna fly in the Air Force as an officer, you're in a good position and you can talk to your cadre about what you need to do to compete for a pilot/nav/abm/UAV slot in the future.

If you're in Army ROTC and/or want to become an Army warrant, then I have no idea and someone else can pipe in.

GL man.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I mean do you apply for a flight slot and when you're graduating from flight school you move on to the path of becoming a Warrant? Or do you apply for a Warrant during sometime in ROTC?

Here's the short answer...NO.

If you're in ROTC, and you finish the program, you WILL become a 2LT. Period. If you wish to remain in ROTC and commission as a lieutenant, and want to fly, you need to branch in aviation. All Army ROTC students are assigned a branch prior to graduating (ie, Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, Aviation, Transportation, Quartermaster, and so on). To fly you need to branch Aviation. You can also branch Medical Service Corps and compete to fly MEDEVAC (medical evacuation), but Aviation is where you want to put your effort.

If you want to be a Warrant Officer, quit ROTC, finish your degree, and put a packet in through an Army recruiter. ROTC has nothing to do with creating Warrant Officers. You must apply for Warrant Officer Candidate School to become an Army Warrant Officer. You can apply without college complete, but speaking from experience, get your degree first before you apply. It A) makes you look more attractive to a board, and B) completes all your required civilian education requirements to make CW4 at a later date.

Why are the programs different? Because commissioned officers receive a commission from the President of the United States. Warrant officers are appointed by the Secretary of the Army (although they receive a commission at a later date). So because of this difference, there are different processes to make them.

Again, to make it real simple...

Commissioned officer = ROTC

Warrant officer = WOCS, not ROTC

[Lawman]

Go home, sit down (away from a computer) and spend a couple days really thinking what is more important to you; the rank on your color... the amount of flight time... the service name on the side of your aircraft... Figure that stuff out. But dont look at Warrant as "the golden ticket to wings." If thats your attitude, we dont want you. We want subject matter experts not just guys that thought it'd be cool if they could tell chicks in the bar they flew helicopters and didnt want to do staff jobs or had some idea that all you would do is fly. There are expectations placed on me as a Warrant that arent expected from a Commissioned Aviator. Im not saying a Commissioned guy isnt worth his salt in the aircraft, its just a different level of knowledge expected. For example a Field Grade officer with 20 years of experience within Aviation will have the knowledge of systems in the aircraft to pass an APART. A 20 Year Warrant MTP could build the damn helicopter if you gave him enough coffee. Every day Im at work Im learning something. Im in a hanger playing Parts and Pieces on the aircraft so I can identify which black boxes are under which panels so I know what systems Im gonna lose when bullets go through the _____. Im sitting in a room with 3 other Warrants that got randomly snatched up by one of our Company IPs for a 2 hour oral knowledge session on Instrument flying under ICOA regs. Or Im putting together a power point class on the Electrical Systems that is going to be shown to every pilot in the Battalion at the Friday Afternoon Pilots briefing in which if I show my ass at all the senior W3's and W4's in the room will make absolutely no hesitation to publicly gut me in front of everyone in that room. You'll do weeks of that for just a handful of flights. Something to keep in mind outside of the glamor of watching the thunderstruck video and dreaming of how cool being a Pilot would be.

If you want to be a Warrant, like Huey said finish your degree, spend a good bit of time getting and staying it shape, and enjoy the college experience without the stupidity of putting on a uniform to go to class and play Army. Talk to a recruiter when your a couple months from finishing your bachelors and start the paperwork process.

[Guest fartman38]

I apologize. I've googled this everywhere but didn't seem to get a straight-forward answer other than 'it is possible'.

When you commission as a 2LT straight out of ROTC, how can you revert to a WO and attend WOCS? Is it extremely difficult? Is it a reliable process?

Because during college, I strongly desire to go through ROTC, but the same time, serve in the Army as a WO.

Thanks in advance.

[nsplayr]

I apologize. I've googled this everywhere but didn't seem to get a straight-forward answer other than 'it is possible'.

When you commission as a 2LT straight out of ROTC, how can you revert to a WO and attend WOCS? Is it extremely difficult? Is it a reliable process?

Because during college, I strongly desire to go through ROTC, but the same time, serve in the Army as a WO.

Thanks in advance.

OMFG, you have either got to be one of the dumbest MFers on the planet or a troll.

If you go through army ROTC, you WILL NOT become a warrant officer. It's not possible except under the most unusual circumstances.

If you want to be a warrant after removing your head from your ass, do what Huey has told you. If you want to be the dumbest LT in the army, proceed with ROTC.

If I'm missing a really funny joke here or something let me know...

[Torch]

From a guy that's in ROTC right now, I'm hurting for all of you having to explain this to him.

AFROTC = College = Graduate as a USAF 2dLt

WOCS = ARMY = Fly

[Lawman]

###### no its not a reliable source to become a warrant.

Here's the two guys I know who did its story.

1. Army Quartermaster Corps Captain... had the choice to get out or stay in. Basically burned every bridge and got lucky when he said the only way he would stay in an Army Uniform was if they'd let him become an Aviation Warrant. Took the better part of a year and a half. He is now a CW2 Hawk Driver. He got lucky, plain and simple.

2. Army Infantry Captain. Went from Active Duty to Guard but the only positions that Guard unit could give him was to revert to a Warrant Officer. He is now getting screwed because that guard unit has since decided they could use a good RLO like him, so basically they just got a Captain but only paid what it would cost to get a WO1. He is currently fishing for units or possibly even going active duty to stay a warrant but that requires a conditional release from his unit and theyre not gonna give it too him.

[OverTQ]

I have read this long enough. Guys, quite giving advice that you are recalling from "experience" or what you know. What you are saying is generally correct. However, not as 100% as you keep saying. Fartman, always look up things for up yourself rather than take the word (of often well meaning people). Don't go to a forum to find out. There are very few people here that actually do a job that would put them in the know. PM me and I will put you in contact with someone who can give you the options.

[usaf36031]

Question for the other 60 drivers on this forum:

Have any of you ever heard of or come across an H-60 exchange with the Navy? If so do you have any info on that?

[Lawman]

Question for the other 60 drivers on this forum:

Have any of you ever heard of or come across an H-60 exchange with the Navy? If so do you have any info on that?

If your interested Id recommend you talk to a couple of the guys on Airwarriors.com

Busdriver may have names of specific guys over there that can help you out. Im not sure which of the Hawk guys over there to point you toward.

[stract]

Question for the other 60 drivers on this forum:

Have any of you ever heard of or come across an H-60 exchange with the Navy? If so do you have any info on that?

seriously? Scotty Karate is in that slot now, but he's due to be re-blued this summer, so our functional at AFPC should be handing out the next assignment there fairly soon (summer VML). There are Navy, Marine (I think, we have a female USMC pilot in our SQ right now, so I assume it's reciprocal), UK, French, German exchanges for 60 drivers that I know of. Huey side of the house I have no idea.

[HeloDude]

seriously? Scotty Karate is in that slot now, but he's due to be re-blued this summer, so our functional at AFPC should be handing out the next assignment there fairly soon (summer VML). There are Navy, Marine (I think, we have a female USMC pilot in our SQ right now, so I assume it's reciprocal), UK, French, German exchanges for 60 drivers that I know of. Huey side of the house I have no idea.

Hueys have the Marine Corps and German Exchange.

[scoobs]

From a flying standpoint is the af still better then the army? I hear a lot of people complain about the queep on this forum and why the af sucks.

[WeMeantWell]

From a flying standpoint is the af still better then the army? I hear a lot of people complain about the queep on this forum and why the af sucks.

Welcome to the aviation community... we complain about everything, all the time, because nothing is ever, ever good enough for us. Interesting thing about aviators: the fact that we are amazing at everything we do is also our downfall, we actually expect other people to at least be decent at their job... and unfortunately everyone else just sucks at their job (over generalization?), oh and we are slightly arrogant. Hence, we complain a lot. Just because there are more AF aviators here than other communities does not provide any statistical meaning. If you gave us a job where we flew once a week for two hours between two tropical islands with hooters flight attendants (and $500K starting pay) we would complain about the quality of the hand jobs.

AF has most of the best fixed wing, Army has most of the best Helos, Navy has the most challenging...er... life? landings? and one of the best aircraft of all time, the Marines just get away with whatever they want... and pretty much all of them would do it for free. Other than that they all have many goods and bads, you can't make a decision based on the "everything else" you have to make a decision on who you relate with the best. I was personally too lazy to be a pilot anywhere except the AF.

There is a decent chance you won't fly until your 65, a back up plan (education/leadership roles/marketable skills) should be a huge factor in the decision.

[Slick]

As I understand it, Air Force UPT students who select Rotary Wing on selection night get sent to Ft. Rucker and attend the RW course along with Army WOFT students. Correct?

If this is correct, then how would you sum up the difference between a army Helicopter pilot vs a Air Force helicopter pilot? Other than rank, what is the difference (if any) between the proficiency, type of flying/mission, and the HH-60 vs the UH-60?

Thanks. I'd be fortunate to be offered a slot in either program but am curious about differences to expect as a helicopter pilot in either branch.

Edited March 4, 2014 by cdroz88

[MD]

As I understand it, Air Force UPT students who select Rotary Wing on selection night get sent to Ft. Rucker and attend the RW course along with Army WOFT students. Correct?.

AF trains it's own helicopter pilots in it's own training squadron, with it's own contract IPs and cadre IPs; all part and parcel from the Army training there. Just happens to be located at Ft Rucker.

Edited March 4, 2014 by MD

[ARAMP1]

Also, AF students go through the full T6 sylibus prior to arriving at Rucker, and can/do get called back to instruct fixed wing.

[MD]

Also, AF students go through the full T6 sylibus prior to arriving at Rucker, and can/do get called back to instruct fixed wing.

Yup. Same thing that used to happen in T-37s, where you'd have some UPT IPs as former helo guys.

Don't know if that was an option with the old UPT-H guys though from the early '90s.

[Lawman]

You won't even talk to the Army side at Mother Rucker. Closest will be watching them bus out to other parts of the flight line at Cairns.

Heck I'm here TDY right now and it's the first time I've conversed with AF flight guys and that was at teasers.

[Breckey]

As I understand it, Air Force UPT students who select Rotary Wing on selection night get sent to Ft. Rucker and attend the RW course along with Army WOFT students. Correct?

If this is correct, then how would you sum up the difference between a army Helicopter pilot vs a Air Force helicopter pilot? Other than rank, what is the difference (if any) between the proficiency, type of flying/mission, and the HH-60 vs the UH-60?

Thanks. I'd be fortunate to be offered a slot in either program but am curious about differences to expect as a helicopter pilot in either branch.

Other than the fact that they are based on the H-60 platform, there's not a lot in common between the PR mission and the UH-60 mission. The Huey mission (almost half of the AF helo fleet) is pretty diverse as well. Everything from DV support, SERE support, NCR contingency ops, ICBM security, and civil SAR (on occasion).

[busdriver]

Other than rank, what is the difference (if any) between the proficiency, type of flying/mission, and the HH-60 vs the UH-60?

First the rank thing: Being a subject matter expert(SME) in aviation takes time. In the AF the leaders(Officers) are expected to be SMEs, therefore they end up being higher ranking when commanding the same size unit. In the Army, the SMEs are senior warrants, so the RLOs (real live officers) are free to advance as leaders but might lack the subject matter knowledge. In the end neither is perfect, in the AF you might get great tactical experts who are so-so leaders, conversely in the Army you might get great leaders who are so-so pilots.

Type of flying: There is more than one type of 60 in the Army, there are UH and HH types in the Army, the HH type in the AF is different in mission and airframe from the HH that is in the Army. Caveman explanation below:

UH-60: Utility aircraft, it's job it to be the 1/4 ton pickup truck of the sky.

Pro: Awesome mission, sling loads, assault, lots of flight time / Cons: VIP support, crappy little M240s

HH-60(Army): Medical Evacuation, flying Ambulance

Pros: Awesome mission, always on mission deployed or home / Cons: No guns, leadership is so-so at integrating at the tactical level from I've seen (the joke is that their officers are nurses)

HH-60(AF): Personnel Recovery/Combat Search & Rescue

Pros: Awesome mission, real guns / Cons: We're on Alert for the big mish, which rarely happens. So what are we doing here?

Do you see a common thread? The answer is awesome mission. Anyway you cut it, a helo guy's mission revolves around supporting the guy on the ground; whether he's a cold, wet and scared fighter pilot who just ejected or a cold wet and hungry grunt who wants to eat and have enough bullets to last through the next engagement. The fact that we get to be that lifeline to help a brother in arms out is very rewarding.

[Hodor]

Talking with my friends from college that went Army Aviation and the Guard capt in my class that is a former army guy, the USAF syllabus forces you to be a more well rounded pilot right out of the gate. Plus I like the USAF PR mission better than what the Army uses its helos for.