Late to Rate

[zrooster99]

I have had it suggested to me that since I will be late to rate (got 5.5 years in currently...closer to 6 when I START UPT), I will have to work twice as hard as my peers when I get to my primary MDS if I hope to get past Maj (or even to Maj?). I'm really not worried about making GO, I just want to fly and keep flying as long as possible...0-5 SQ CC would be nice too, but that's about it. I know I'll probably be way behind in my primary weapon system (whatever that ends up being), but on the plus side I've got 5+ years of experience leading units ranging in size from 50-250 enlisted troops fairly successfully as a maintenance guy(some good E-7s and E-8s helped a lot with that of course).

So what does everyone think? Will anyone in the SQ care about my prior maintenance experience, and will I be able to catch up some on flying if I fly my balls off? I'll have SOS (in residence) and a MAJCOM staff tour out of the way, and have been a GOs exec (all while I've been waiting to go to UPT), so that's a few less things to interfere with flying.

[ClearedHot]

Late-Rated is of course a double-edged sword. As you stated you have the leadership experience, but you will be behind in the flight experience. It has been my experience that late-rated guys tend to do very well, not just because of the previous leadership experience, but because of maturity. My roommate from ACSC was late-rated after serving as a civil engineering officer and he managed to catch his peers and pass them. He graduated from the WIC and just made O-5 BTZ.

Back in the early 1990’s I saw several Navigators and EWOs go through UPT then get banked. Which means that many of them were Co-pilots as new majors. Every one of them has since made O-5 and several are getting ready for command. While they had some basic flight experience as aviators, they still had to overcome the traditional hurdles such as upgrading to Flight Lead, Co-Pilot, IP.

Bottom line, it really depends on the individual. If you are a hard worker your past experience will probably serve you well. The only danger is that leadership will want to tap your skills and have you work projects that will pull you away from building flight time. You will have to balance the increased responsibility they will no doubt give you with the desire to go fly. If you work hard it will prove to be a big plus in your career.

[Beaver]

Yeah, the chances of you being assistant training officer are slim. You will quickly be given a job in the squadron commensurate with your rank and experience, and that will limit your flying to an extent.

[Flare]

The best part about it all----you won't get FAIPed!

[Guest dajta]

ENJJPT IP,

In regards to your reply above, I have a question. I'm in UPT right now at Moody and will pin on Captain in June. Does that mean getting FAIPed is out of the question? Is there a TIS/TIG stipulation for FAIPs? Thanks.

[Guest rotorhead]

The AFPC Trainer and Rated Pipeline Assignments Branch drops the assignments to HQ AETC, but HQ AETC will not let a captain FAIP...it is (in general/for the most part) terrible for flying career progression...you join the flying world 4 years behind, then the MWS family 4 more years behind...it is in your best interest NOT to FAIP, and AETC knows that.

[Guest AV8NSP]

From a Guard perspective (If anyone cares, since I don't think you are in this situation), it doesn't seem to have too much of an adverse effect. I was non-rated for 6 years on AD, then left to join a guard unit and go to UPT. You have just as much chance to fly as a senior Capt copilot (Like me) as the young LT copilots. I am not the only "Late Bloomer" in my unit, and no oner seems to have suffered because of it. Might want to get PAB in on this, too, since he was an AD EWO and now a Guard Pilot (and an all-around good guy)....

[Beaver]

Yeah, but you are probably going to be flying in your guard unit until you are 69. So a couple of years off the front end isn't that big a deal.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by AV8NSP:

You have just as much chance to fly as a senior Capt copilot (Like me) as the young LT copilots. I am not the only "Late Bloomer" in my unit, and no oner seems to have suffered because of it. Might want to get PAB in on this, too, since he was an AD EWO and now a Guard Pilot (and an all-around good guy)....

I don't know about the 'good guy' thing, but I'm sure PAB will also have something to add here.

My ANG unit doesn't seem to care what rank the pilots are. Everyone has the same opportunity to fly and go TDY. In the long run the rank may even work for me...with supposedly superior judgment than a LT/junior Capt, it will hopefully be easier to waiver the A/C flying hour requirements and thus upgrade quicker.

The only minor irritation that I've had is that they can't seem to disconnect the words "copilot" and "Lieutenant" so I get called LT often. Of course, if they're going to give me O-4 pay and expect the work of a Lt..BONUS FOR ME! :D

[Spinner]

What's the overall thoughts of Late Rates coming into the flying world? Are they treated like red-headed stepchildren or treated the same? My thinking is as long as you can fly the plane, you'll be ok. Is that a safe assumption?

[ClearedHot]

I would say there actually IS a difference in the way they are treated. Late rated folks tend to be a little more mature and commanders usually will give them squadron jobs more appropriate to their rank.

I’ve even seen a late rated co-pilot who was a flight commander.

There are really two groups;

1. Dudes/dudettes who were Navigators then went to UPT – they tend to upgrade very quickly and almost always get good job in the squadron.

2. Dudes/dudettes who were went to UPT after stating off in a non-rated billet. It has been my experience that it takes them a little longer than the prior rated folks to learn the ropes, but they still learn quicker than the young guns right out of UPT.

One thing to watch out for, they may try to give you such a good job that your flying suffers. I can think of two dudes off the top on my pea brain who were pushed towards career development jobs (Wing Exec – Chief of Plans), and let their currency suffer. While I appreciate that you are in a position in your career where you need a job to help you get promoted, you walk a very thin line of credibility when you fly once every ten days and it takes you two years to get enough hours (even with a waiver), to upgrade.

[Guest Hydro130]

"2" on CH's comments.

I have seen ALL of the things he mentioned happen on the Slick side too. Overall, I think the late-rated guys are well-respected, well-treated, and well-taken care of with regard to appropriate job placements (PRF considerations) and upgrades.

I have seen 2 late-rate senior captain copilits get boned with (as CH puts it) career development jobs from day 1. Both worked their @sses off and did very well, but currencies did suffer for a while. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed at the leadership levels, and we were able to get these guys back on the line while still maintaining respectable jobs.

Work closely with your Chief Pilot or Nav, and get to know the ADOs and squadron leadership moreso than a typical rookie would... Those are the folks who can help you on a fast-track for success...

Cheers, Hydro

[Guest SpectrePilot]

Not trying to be too terribly harsh here, but...

Late rates sometimes are upgraded to AC or IP too quickly just so their records look good for promotion to O-4/ O-5, whether they really have the proficiency and experience or not. They're then only paired with the best Copilots to keep em out of trouble.

On the flip side, those that DO deserve the advanced Qualification are shooed away to do appropriate "career enhancement" jobs. So, even if they ARE good sticks, they can't hang around to pay back their experience to the newbies.

[Guest Hydro130]

On that note,

And bear in mind this is just my own personal observations on the slick side...

Too-fast-tracked dudes are normal-time guys who did a white jet tour and now need the IP stink for a PRF, so they get pushed through. I've seen 2 examples of that back-fire and those guys losing their instructor qual for very gross buffoonery.

I've had great experiences with late-rate folks, and have seen them treated / rewarded appropriately for the most part. The white jet and then must-make-IP-for-PRF dudes are the ones to watch out for... And, of course, those guys are the @sshole exeption within that community; please don't interpret my statement as a blanket slam on all the white-jet-returning-to MDS guys...

Cheers, Hydro

[busdriver]

I've found flight time has almost equal importance to age. So the guys who went through UPT late in life, lack experience but make up for it in maturity. So the old prior types may not have quite the same level of hands, they have much better judgement.

[Guest eburg06]

Good day all,

I am currently a Finance weenie at Charleston, interested in flying. There is plenty of info out there about how to prepare/apply for a slot and when its too late, but my biggest concern is post-selection. Lets say I get selected as a Jr Capt, then spend the next couple of years in the pipeline. What next?? I've spoken to others who have been selected through the AD board, and they make it seem like you will get limited flying time once you get your wings--based on rank and time in service. Maybe one, at most two actual tours before you start flying a desk.

So, I guess my question is; what sort of vector can I expect "if" I'm selected? Thanks for the help and thanks for what you do.

[brabus]

Look at it this way, at least you'll be do something other than flying a desk for a tour or two. That in itself makes it all worth it...especially from your position.

[pawnman]

Good day all,

I am currently a Finance weenie at Charleston, interested in flying. There is plenty of info out there about how to prepare/apply for a slot and when its too late, but my biggest concern is post-selection. Lets say I get selected as a Jr Capt, then spend the next couple of years in the pipeline. What next?? I've spoken to others who have been selected through the AD board, and they make it seem like you will get limited flying time once you get your wings--based on rank and time in service. Maybe one, at most two actual tours before you start flying a desk.

So, I guess my question is; what sort of vector can I expect "if" I'm selected? Thanks for the help and thanks for what you do.

It's typical to spend a tour in the cockpit, then a staff/AFLA tour, then back to the cockpit, etc.

But, depending on your career goals, you can spend a LOT of time in the cockpit. It may not be YOUR jet (for example, you could go to AETC as an instructor). Taking a flying job (after your first tour) may not be the fastest track to promotion, but if you're more interested in flying than retiring as a full-bird, there are ways to do it.

[Guest slim]

I'm at UPT now and asked that same question since I'm nearly in the same situation. Short answer is that you will not be FAIP'd and once you arrive at your unit and complete your required training, then they will attempt to plug you in to a position conducive to your rank. You gotta have the blocks checked (SOS, Masters, etc) if you expect them to take care of you though. I guess there are people who get to their base and avoid those things, but it seems like a roll of the dice. You could be that guy who gets passed over for major...

[LJ Driver]

Dude,

You're in a good position. AFPC and your bosses SHOULD try to take care of you by getting you your gate months before getting slapped with a non-flying job. So if you enter UPT as a junior captain, you won't have much of an opportunity to get the no-fly job until your ~15 year point.

[Herk Driver]

Not to worry. I can't speak for going fighters but I know a good bit about the heavy side. I was comissioned and started out as an SP (with a deferred UNT slot). Finally got to SUNT at Randolph and by the time I got to my unit, I was a still a 1Lt. I got picked up for UPT at the 4.5 year point. (BTW, I have a buddy that was picked up at the 5.5 year point). Either way, on the heavy side, you will fly until you hit at least 120 gate months (that's 120 months of flying from when you started UPT, so that's 10 years). I'm just now into my staff tour and had 128 months when I started it (but the gates from being a Nav counted in that as well).

If you want to make the AF a career and possibly be a Commander (i.e. not just fly the line), I think you will find that you are going to be asking to do other things and trying to find ways to do the things you need to do to reach those goals. Luckily, I had outstanding CC's that looked out for me and gave me jobs that were where I needed to be in terms of my time in service versus the typical, this guy is a copilot so he can't do such and such job. Or he is an AC, not an IP, so why is he doing such and such job. With the war, many of those paradigms have changed, but some still exist.

Bottom line: You will have plenty of opportunity to fly. Most CC's and AFPC actually will look at the balance between your career progression and your time in the cockpit. I know that the -130 guys will not release you to staff (very few exceptions) without 120 gate months completed. Good luck.

[Guest bikerdood]

Old thread, but I was thinking about this today and did a search and there it was.

I'm a late rated guy who started off in the Herk and then went to T-1s and am now headed back to the Herk. This is my experience and some thoughts.

As a late rated guy in the Herk (or probably any MWS), I was obviously behind my peers in hours and, more importantly, qualification. Had I stayed in the Herk straight through, I would have continued to be behind those guys who started UPT right after commissioning. Could I make up the difference? Maybe. Maybe not.

So, I went to white jets for a tour. The great thing for late rated guys in white jets is that no one on AD has a bunch of hours in the T-1/T-6/T-44, so you start on a pretty much equal footing with other people of your same rank. Would a late rated guy become an ADO or an evaluator in his second Herk assignment? Again, maybe. Would he get these jobs in white jets? Probably.

It's the "probably" versus the "maybe" that really helps out when going to white jets. Now that I'm headed back to the herk, not only am I not sick of deploying every six months, but I've gotten some jobs and experience that I probably wouldn't have gotten had I stayed in the C-130 for another assignment.

So, my advice, and the point of this post, is that if you're a late rated guy, you may want to consider going back to white jets after your first assignment to get some experience before returning to your MWS.

-BD

[Herk Driver]

Old thread, but I was thinking about this today and did a search and there it was.

I'm a late rated guy who started off in the Herk and then went to T-1s and am now headed back to the Herk. This is my experience and some thoughts.

As a late rated guy in the Herk (or probably any MWS), I was obviously behind my peers in hours and, more importantly, qualification. Had I stayed in the Herk straight through, I would have continued to be behind those guys who started UPT right after commissioning. Could I make up the difference? Maybe. Maybe not.

So, I went to white jets for a tour. The great thing for late rated guys in white jets is that no one on AD has a bunch of hours in the T-1/T-6/T-44, so you start on a pretty much equal footing with other people of your same rank. Would a late rated guy become an ADO or an evaluator in his second Herk assignment? Again, maybe. Would he get these jobs in white jets? Probably.

It's the "probably" versus the "maybe" that really helps out when going to white jets. Now that I'm headed back to the herk, not only am I not sick of deploying every six months, but I've gotten some jobs and experience that I probably wouldn't have gotten had I stayed in the C-130 for another assignment.

So, my advice, and the point of this post, is that if you're a late rated guy, you may want to consider going back to white jets after your first assignment to get some experience before returning to your MWS.

-BD

BD,

All excellent points. You and I have had different experiences and therefore the lessons we learn are somewhat different. I was a late-rated Nav and was worried about some of those same things you posted above. Then I got to go to UPT and was even farther behind. I have managed to catch up somewhat (i.e. became an EP, etc), go to staff and appear to be returning to the Herk (possibly on a path to better things). Another friend of mine who is a year ahead commission wise was late-rated (two ops assignments and then staff). He left staff to OSA where he is picking up command this coming year. There is no cookie cutter career path to follow anymore.

Not sure if there are that many opportunities in the Herk community for late-rated guys and you appear to be correct about the wealth of opportunity in white jets (limited experience from which to judge). But, I think that flexibility in which path someone chooses to follow is the key. There seem to be fewer straight career -130 guys (sts) that are getting command these days. Many of the CC's and others have branched out and done other (non-standard??) things.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Herk Driver

[disgruntledemployee]

Let me tell you what brother, those late-to-rate folks, especially from the 94-95 year groups when the AF boned pilot production, have one thing in common. They worked hard to earn those slots and it keeps showing as they progress. Hell, my UPT class was about half late raters.

My point...most are hard chargers; it shows and the bosses see it.

But here is where I see problems for late-raters. There is still a cookie cutter mold for career progression, op tours, staff, schools, etc. And Big blue wants patch wearers for DOs, which in turn means SQ/CC. But to get the patch, something falls from that career cookie, like a staff job (which is way overrated).

I would love to hear about any late rated DOs and SQ/CCs out in the MAF. I would really love to hear about one (or more) that made DO and SQ/CC of any airlift squadron (not an OSS or stuff like that).

Out

[Guest Boom]

I would love to hear about any late rated DOs and SQ/CCs out in the MAF. I would really love to hear about one (or more) that made DO and SQ/CC of any airlift squadron (not an OSS or stuff like that).

Out

Back in 2005 the 50 AS Sq/CC was a late rate Buff EWO turned Herk Pilot. He later became a patch and then Sq/CC. Just made O-6 last year. However I'm sure Herk Driver will back me up on this...the guy is someone who should of never been promoted past Captain.