C-21 info

[Gravedigger]

I have become really interested in C-21s lately. I was ondering if anyone could give me a quick view of their mission, locations, etc. I was also curious if the C-21 is the same as a Lear 35, they look the same anyway.

[HerkDerka]

Talk to C-21Pilot.

PD

[Guest HueyPilot]

The C-21 is essentially a Learjet 35A. There are some minor differences, and they are all up in the cockpit.

The C-21 has a few mods that stock Lear 35s won't have. They all have a Universal MFD that displays nav data, TCAS targets, wx radar and terrain/TAWS data. They also have an EVSI that displays TCAS climb information as well as TCAS traffic. The C-21 has a Universal UNS-1B flight management system that, in my opinion, is much more user friendly than the Collins FMS in the T-1. C-21s have dual GPS receivers, and are certified to conduct GPS approaches.

All C-21s have been modified to include fuel standby pump operating lights, fuel crossflow caution lights, and a light indicating that the parking brake is set. They are also equipped with Honeywell TAWS and TCAS II systems, as well as the Mode S transponder required on TCAS-equipped aircraft.

Other things you find on the C-21 that civilian Lears don't have include the UHF and HF radios, and a GPS control panel.

C-21 missions can be broken into four types: Training, operational support, AMC support and combat/combat support missions.

Training missions vary depending on the training required, and the unit location. Off-station trainers (OST) are often flown to places like Sondrestromfjord in Greenland, as well as Honduras and Ecuador. OSTs can also be flown to various North American locations as well for training in "high-density traffic areas" (eg San Diego/Dulles, etc) and high-altitude airfield training (Eagle Co., Colorado).

We also fly local sorties called "M010s" (M Tens), which is the ARMS code for a C-21 local proficiency sortie. These mean you'll go to an outlying airfield and practice multiple instrument approaches as well as VFR traffic patterns. They can be flown as an out-and-back or a continuous local mission.

Operational Support Airlift (OSA) missions are the meat of C-21 flying. A TRANSCOM agency, the Joint Operational Support Airlift Center (JOSAC) receives airlift request and cuts the missions to the individual squadrons who then execute the missions.

A typical OSA mission will involve departing home station, flying to Robins AFB in Georgia to pick up your passengers, flying them to Andrews AFB to drop them off, repositioning to Atlanta Hartsfield to pick up a new set of passengers and perhaps carrying them to Godman AAF (Army Airfield) in Kentucky, then reposition back to home base.

In one day, you'll transit several states, land at airfields ranging in size from small and uncontrolled (like KSOP in North Carolina) to very busy and large (like KDFW in Dallas). You will usually fly DVs (Distinguished Visitors, ie, general/flag officers), but often you'll fly a plane-load of junior officers or enlisted folks enroute to a conference. Occassionally you'll fly the high-rollers, like Congressional Representatives, Senators, senior DoD civilian staff, and on occassion the CSAF when his Gulfstream breaks down.

I personally have been to probably 40 of the lower 48 states in this airplane. I've been to remote airfields like Barstow-Daggett in California, to DFW and Atlanta. I've been to Army, Navy and Air Force airfields. And I know what it's like to circle to land at minimums out of a GPS approach to a 5,000 foot wet runway with an uncontrolled airfield (with a three star in the back). The flying is varied and unique, the the C-21 is an extremely fun airplane to fly (but very cramped).

AMC support missions are missions that are handed to us direct from the TACC (Tanker Airlift Control Center). I've seen three of these missions in the entire 2 1/2+ years I've been flying C-21s. All three were fragged to fly to Gitmo. TACC-directed missions aren't common in the C-21 world.

Combat/Combat Support missions are those flown when you're assigned to CENTAF and flying out of the forward-deployed location in the middle east. There, you'll fly to most of the middle-eastern countries in support of both OIF (Iraq) and OEF (Afghanistan). You may fly into Iraq and Afghanistan proper, depending on mission requirements, and get to perform real no-kidding tactical approaches (and wear body armor in the process). I've personally flown to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman and the UAE. Others have flown to Jordan, Egypt, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kzyrghistan, among other locations.

Other countries I've been to include Honduras, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Cuba, Cayman Islands, Greenland and Canada.

Locations you ask...good question. That is changing. By the end of 2005 there will be only four C-21 squadrons. The 84th AS will be located at Peterson AFB in Colorado. The 458th AS will be located at Scott AFB in Illinois. The 54th AS will be located at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, and the 457th AS will be located at Andrews AFB in Maryland. Gone will be the whole "Airlift Flight" concept, perhaps for good. Back in the day, these flights were owned by specific agencies and commands and had as few as two C-21s on hand. Then came the first consolidation resulting in the locales we have up until August 2004 (when Maxwell closes its doors). And now this latest consolidation.

If you go to a C-21 unit, realize that the Air Force will require you to do two back-to-back OPS tours (ie, two assignments flying MWS aircraft). You had your three years in the slow lane flying C-21s, so then they will put you to work. Chances of going back to the C-21 after one MWS tour is pretty much zilch. You MIGHT be able to score another C-21 hitch as a field grader. Maybe.

Anyways, I'll stop writing the book at this point, and if you have any additional questions, feel free to ask.

[Gravedigger]

I am amzed that you managed to answer every question I had! Thanks for the info, now I'm even more interested in flying the C-21.

[Chuck17]

Dont be closed to going to an MWS first and keeping that C21 in the hip pocket... Luckily for me there were a ton of dudes who wanted 21's in my class... because I sure didnt. With the way the poor FAIP's (non-MWS guys) are getting treated on their follow ons... its best to get the MWS tour outta the way and be assignable in the future than go to OSA and hope to go 17s or whatever later... because you never know who will deal the cards later... maybe a moot point but thats just my .02

[Gravedigger]

No matter what happens, I want to end up in the C-17. I guess I'll just see what happens when I get to that point. Thanks for all the input.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Huey is a bit farther down the road than I am, but here is my perspective. He has put an excellent banner on the C-21 that I don't need to duplicate.

First off, the 84th ALF at C-Springs will die off as well, and the 311th ALF here at Offutt will turn absorb the 84th into a new Squadron at C-Springs, called the 311 ALS (Airlift Squadron). Mute point, but still a correction.

Anyways, again, diddo to everything Huey said. Here at Offutt, we tend to go more to the West Coast a bit more and I have been to all 48 states. DFW, O'Hare, JFK, you name the Class B, I've been there. I've also gained cert's at Gitmo, Quito, Eagle Co, Hondorus, Sonde, etc.

A few Pro's in the C-21, hardly ever go TDY. RON's are usually at prime locations (Miami, Key West, Monterrey, etc.), and upgrades. In fact, most C-21 pilots upgrade to IP is just over 2 yrs (due to manning and availability, my upgrades have come much quicker than the "Average Joe".).

Also, with the influx of STRAT aircraft coming into the market, look for a majority of C-21 guys with no follow-on assignment (like myself) to end up flying either a C-5 or C-17.

The C-21 is a great tour with a great community. If you have the ability and "want" to fly the C-17, then by all means you should try for that out of UPT. They are handing them out like candy from what I've been hearing, and nothing is guaranteed out of the C-21 anymore.

[scoobs]

Are there any overseas locations and are they going to keep them in the future.

Thanks

Scoobs

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Sure enough...

Yokota AB Japan (Tokyo) and Ramstein AB Germany (Frankfurt).

The consolidation of CONUS based C-21 units is a 375th AW (Scott AFB) doing. This will not affect the commitment that the C-21's overseas have.

[scoobs]

Can you transfer to another base or are you stuck in the same location for the whole time.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

"Can you transfer to another base or are you stuck in the same location for the whole time."

99.9% of the time, you are stuck where you are, and cannot transfer to another base, and your typical location assignment is 3-4 yrs.

Now, being the loose cannon that the C-21 community is (and by loose cannon, 1.) the consolidation 2.) OSA contract issues w/ budget cuts, our days may be numbered), we have just recently been put into the situation where some folks, approx 20, will continue to fly the C-21 and "have" to move to one of the new-founded SQ's (Andrews, Scott, Wright-Patt, C-Springs) or move into the 45 AS down at Keesler (C-21 schoolhouse).

Also, consider the notion of the BRAC (Base Realignment and Closures, and the recent demise of the C-141 and C-9), those folks are affected by this as well. Some of the C-141/C-9 guys absorbed into AETC, some got out (and subsequently furloughed), and some PCS's into another airframe.

[LJDRVR]

Having over 2000 hours in the civilian Learjets, I thought I'd nitpick a few things in Hueypilot's outstanding and informative post.

About 50 percent of the Lear 35's out there have the XFLOW annuciators and standby pump pinhole lights. I've yet to fly a 35 retrofitted with the parking brake light, but you'll see it on 31's and some later serial number 55's. The 31's have a bendix MFD, but the only thing you'll see in the 35's are the Avidyne unit. (Same stuff.) Most of our 35's have HF/SELCAL. No UHF or SATCOM. You'll see a variety of RNAV in the jets, from UNS-1K's to GLS to older GPS units, which are the most common. The EVSI/TCAS unit is becoming common, especially on RVSM modified A/C.

The C-21 and LR35 are very much the same airplane. Any qualified military or civilian crew would be able to swap aircraft without batting an eyelash. The C-21 does have the FC530 autopilot, a much better piece of electronics than the FC200 that you see in about 90% of the civilian Lear population. (No altitude select:()

Interestingly enough, the OSA mission VERY closely parallels what we do in the FAA part 135 world, with the exception of pilot seasoning and DV's flying the jet with the AC acting as IP and the copilot stuck elswhere. I can neither confirm or deny the occasional presence of a pretty female passenger in the cockpit...

I'll echo HueyPilot's sentiments on the jet itself, a WHOLE lot of fun to fly. A seasoned and talented Lear pilot will have no problem at all transitioning into any type of transport category aircraft or MWS. The cockpit is cramped, (I'm 6'4", 215) once you figure out where to put your elbows, you're O.K.

My finis flight on the Lear is coming up in two weeks. After 5 and 1/2 years, I'll miss her a lot. (But not getting out of bed after just falling asleep and stepping to the jet at 0100 to fly to Guatemala.)

The biggest difference is C-21's are well-maintained by the GLASCO folks. Lear 35's run the gamut. One of ours has over 21,000 hours on it. Simuflite is never a problem for us because we routinely get to deal with abnormals and emergencies in the airplane.

I still do love the jet though. Too bad we can't have an exchange program between a C-21 unit and a large part 135 operation. I think both sides would get a lot out of it.

Good luck with you career man! You're gonna get paid to fly airplanes. What a scam.

[Guest C150J]

LJDRVR,

Are you moving on to another aircraft, or?

I'm sure you've heard that joke about Lear pilots a thousand times, so I'll spare you (I imagine you're the one with your head titled to the right, though:))

J.

[LJDRVR]

Yeah, I'm going to go fly Embraer 135's and 145's for a regional airline. Tremendous pay cut, but for long-term stability and quality of life, it's got to be done.

Here's an update to the tired old joke that any Lear guy or gall will appreciate: How can you tell a Learjet Crew? They drag their suitcases across the furniture in the FBO.

[Guest AirGuardian]

LJDRVR,

Wish you the best in your new endeavors(new being the better lifestyle I'm hoping for you!).

Nice joke, at least you won't ever have to be a B-52 Aircraft Commander when there's a problem:

Imagine a B-52 on approach at Diego Garcia: "Oh crap, EVERYONE on board grab a throttle, we're Going Around!!!"

[Gravedigger]

That reminds me of a good but old joke, for all of you who haven't heard it here goes:

An F-16 Pilot requests priority for landing due to mechanical issues. ATC says unable due to a B-52 on approach with an engine out. The F-16 pilot replies "oh darn, you gotta be careful with those 7 engine approaches."

[McQuibs]

Thread revival!

I'm a first assignment guy headed to Ramstein to fly the Lear and I was wondering if anybody had any insight on how things were looking over there since the draw-down in aircraft. Particularly, are OSA USAFE guys doing any deployments right now, what is the current timeline like for upgrades and is it still a safe assumption that if everything goes well, and you do your job right you might get IP before you leave after your 3 years? Thanks guys, appreciate the help.

Cheers,

McQuibs

[C-21.Pilot]

Check your PM.

[LJDRVR]

Wow, what a bast from the past! Talk about good timing, leaving that 135 gig hurt, but I ended up in 757's an 767's at the majors. Should of hung up that on-demand crap a whole lot sooner.

I would love to fly a Learjet again.

[scudrunner12]

...since the draw-down in aircraft.

They've drawn down? I'm very interested in C-21 to Ramstein. C-21.Pilot, any info would be much appreciated.

I've also been told that getting a C-21 is difficult/not recommended for late rated guys out of UPT. I was a prior Nav (or CSO, whatever). Thanks!

[Learjetter]

They've drawn down? I'm very interested in C-21 to Ramstein. C-21.Pilot, any info would be much appreciated.

I've also been told that getting a C-21 is difficult/not recommended for late rated guys out of UPT. I was a prior Nav (or CSO, whatever). Thanks!

They've drawn down A LOT since the 90s Lear heyday of 76 jets at 9 locations...and that was after the REAL heyday of the late 80s.

I was also late-rated, and was told to select a "real MWS" out of UPT. Recognize it for what it is, a treat, and don't tarry there, and you can easily be an IP in a MWS before your IPZ to Maj PRF is due. 3yrs in the Lear (one as CP, 1 as MP, 1as IP), and you'll enter MWS training as an FP, be an MP in a year, and IP six months after that. Assuming you aren't a slug, of course.

And, assuming you play the office game correctly...be Chief of a shop x2 in the Lear, and get a WG or OG Shop chief position in the MWS unit.

PM me for details, if interested.

[KillEmAll]

Glad to see this thread revivied, hey does anybody out there reading this have contact with the C-21 Colorado ANG unit at Pete? I am wondering how often they hire guys since I never see any ads for them (probably dont need to advertise) and do they ever take guys from other airframes? I think that would be a pretty sweet job in a great location. Any info on this greatly appreciated. I am an AD guy flying a heavy aircraft looking at Palace Chase options.

[WheelsOff]

Anyone care to shed some light on what life is like currently in the C-21? Would a second assignment guy expect to get a good amount of flying in?

[Gravedigger]

Dear God, these thread revivals are like traveling back in time. Hard to believe I started this thread a decade ago. From punkass cadet to jaded Captain, it's been a good 10 years BODN! Cheers!

Oh yeah....C-21s...

[Butters]

Anyone care to shed some light on what life is like currently in the C-21?

Life in the C-21 is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you are gonna get.