Palace Chase info

[HookEmAll]

That really sucks for the tanker world. The line guys are deploying their asses off...so let's cut 50-100 of them. I can't figure out how in the past 20 years the USAF still hasn't figured out how to get the average TDY rate below 150 days per year - which is well above the goal of "below 120" that upper management has been touting for decades. HINT: cutting pilots isn't the answer!

YGBSM.

Sorry dude. Wasn't trying to spin you up. I was just asking a question about a rumor. Probably just means we're all going UAVs to be replaced by copilots in the 135. The 150+ is why I'm asking the question.

[matmacwc]

Toasty,

How much time of your ADSC were you asking for off?

[Toasty]

Just under 2 years (1 year 11 months). Not sure if my recent graduation from instructor school (which is driving the ADSC to Sep 2012 right now) had a negative impact on my application or not.

[Guest tankernav06]

My palace chase package just got approved two days ago. I'm a KC-135 Nav with 1.5 years left on my committment. It pays to do your homework before getting into this program. We were told off the bat that a direct transfer into the AFRES or ANG is a no go currently (pilot-pilot, nav-nav)I was hired as a pilot in a reserve unit, completed my FC1 at Brooks, got my UPT dates and personally talked to everyone at AFPC that would even touch my application before any paperwork was submitted. We were pretty much assured that this was the way to make sure your package gets accepted. With that said, it usually takes 6-8 weeks to get a desiscion back from SAF/PC and mine took 16 weeks...

So, it is possible to palace chase. Biggest lesson learned... Dont let ANYONE tell you no. Noone in your chain of command is authorized to hold your package up or to not sign it. your functional manager does not make any yes or no desicion on the approval/denial process, the only person that approves/denies is SECAF/PC.

Good Luck!

[Guest busDriver79]

My palace chase package just got approved two days ago. I'm a KC-135 Nav with 1.5 years left on my committment. It pays to do your homework before getting into this program. We were told off the bat that a direct transfer into the AFRES or ANG is a no go currently (pilot-pilot, nav-nav)I was hired as a pilot in a reserve unit, completed my FC1 at Brooks, got my UPT dates and personally talked to everyone at AFPC that would even touch my application before any paperwork was submitted. We were pretty much assured that this was the way to make sure your package gets accepted. With that said, it usually takes 6-8 weeks to get a desiscion back from SAF/PC and mine took 16 weeks...

So, it is possible to palace chase. Biggest lesson learned... Dont let ANYONE tell you no. Noone in your chain of command is authorized to hold your package up or to not sign it. your functional manager does not make any yes or no desicion on the approval/denial process, the only person that approves/denies is SECAF/PC.

Good Luck!

tankernav06,

Congrats! I just submitted my PC app last week. Approx how long did it take for you to get notification? Also, I was wondering if there is a specific individual you recommend I speak to at AFPC/Palace Chase? I'm currently a 12R with 1.5 years left on my ADSC. I received a hire letter from an ANG unit, and have full support from my SQ/CC. Not too sure about my Wg/CC though.

Anyone hear about changes to Palace Chase eligibility for FY11?

[matmacwc]

Source told me 6 months off no matter what AFSC, here's hoping. Any other stories about PC?

[Pod 26]

I just got the approval yesterday. I'm only shaving 4.5 months off of my ADSC. As a previous poster said, it helps to do your homework and grease the skids before you apply. I talked to everyone from my Sq/CC to my functional manager at AFPC before I applied. I also had the ANG unit fill out the form 1288 with position info. Sending a hire letter with the application would have been another good thing to do, but it wasn't necessary for me.

Background:

62E

ROTC, 4yr ADSC

Functional manager at AFPC is a Major I worked for in my current assignment and wrote me a letter of rec, so perhaps he was more inclined to recommend my separation.

My timeline:

Applied early October

Applied again 26 October

Wing/CC signed 29 October

Palace Chase Office sent approval 7 December

My first application was screwed up due to confusion over who has authority to sign. I work with a lot of civilians and have civilian "commanders" and most of them do not have access to CMS. At any rate, the second application went through to my Wing/CC much quicker, so expect to wait longer than three days from applying to Wing/CC signature. Also, on vMPf you can check the status of your application and see when the last action was taken. This drove me nuts because it never changed from "29 October." In other words, as it goes through AFPC and the PC Office, there is action taken on your application, but it won't be visible to you.

This process is designed for people to request PC without yet having a job in an ANG/AFR unit. However, the best way to guarantee your PC approval is to have been offered a job, which then necessitates a process slightly different than what is in the AFI. I don't think anyone on this forum is surprised at that. If you have hopes of PCing, talk to a recruiter that has done it successfully.

One last thing, anyone in the chain may recommend against you PCing, but the final approval or denial still comes from the PC Office. Even if your Wing/CC says no, you may still get approved.

Good luck!

Chris

[Duck]

Does anyone thing it is possible to get 5 years shaved off for a palace chase? Or is this just a pipe dream?

[Bergman]

Does anyone thing it is possible to get 5 years shaved off for a palace chase? Or is this just a pipe dream?

Dreaming!!

You never know until you ask - the Air Force has done some pretty weird/dumb/different things over the years - but IMHO trying to get out of 50% or more of your initial commitment won't happen. Are you a pilot? If so, as previously stated, even with an ANG/AFRES job lined up...those aren't happening. If you're hoping to go to pilot training, you don't even have a year in your current position (guessing nav/ABM in that case). AFI 36-2205 says you must have served at least 2.5 years before going to pilot training (i.e. you would only have 3.5 years left on your original ADSC).

Officers selected for or currently enrolled in a course of training as Air Battle Managers (ABM) and

those officers performing duty as a ABM are ineligible to apply for pilot or navigator training until

completing ABM training and serving a minimum of 2 ½ years as an AFB prior to the class start date for

a given selection board.

Officers selected for or currently enrolled in SUNT are ineligible to apply for pilot training until

completion of SUNT and award of aeronautical rating of navigator. Navigators may apply to any board

that, if selected, will result in serving the full 2 ½ years of rated duty (as a navigator) by their selected

class start date for a given selection board.

Give us a little more info and maybe someone has a better starting point. Good luck!

[Karl Hungus]

Are you a pilot? If so, as previously stated, even with an ANG/AFRES job lined up...those aren't happening.

Mostly true, but they are indeed getting approved for folks within a year of completing their commitment. It might not seem that much, but that's 6-9 less months to deal with AD.

[Duck]

Im a pilot right now, looking to get out of Big Blue and experience life as a Guard/Reserve guy and an airline gig on the side. After this assignment I should only have around 5 years left on my ADSC from after pilot training. I know the reg says 2/3 of your initial commitment or something like that to even be eligible, which for me was 4 years out of ROTC. I am going to go ahead and follow Bergman's advice and be ready to send the papers up the chain anyways, worst thing they can do is say no. Thanks for the insight though guys. This place is always a wealth of info and advice.

[Danny Noonin]

Danger will Robinson. If you are indeed that young you are not necessarily going to be super competitve for the airlines. Little hiring with tons of way more experienced dudes in line before you. I'm not saying you can't get hired but you definitely have an uphill climb. Point#2 realize that when you submit your palace chase, you've showed your cards to big blue. Don't count on being taken care of after that. Lots of non flying/unmanned requirements that would leave you non current and therefore non competitive to get hired at an airline later. Not trying to talk you out of anything, but you definitely need to think this one through. It isn't just a "worst they can say is no" scenario. It can get worse than that.

[Duck]

I appreciate the advice, but I am not worried about getting a job with the airlines. I am more looking into how do I/can I get out of AD Blue, so I can make a better life for my family. Have to admit, never really thought about them taking revenge and sticking me with a non-flying gig or something to screw me, so I appreciate that perspective.

I did have a Guard buddy explain to me how the AF keeps pilots:

"After pilot training and your first assignment, they usually assign you a white jet tour. That usually puts you up the 8-9 year mark. Then they go ahead and stick you in a non-flying staff job. You think about getting out, but realize that if you did you would have to put a big fat ZERO next to recent flying time on airline applications. So you stick it out for another 4 years and take a nice ACP bonus. The Air Force rewards you by putting you in a flying assignment. That puts you at about 16 or so total time, so you have no thought of punching now. Then with only one more assignment between you and the door... the Air Force screws you again by placing you in a non-flying job, further cementing your dependance to the Big Blue Teet."

Thanks again guys... I am going to have to sit down with the family and pray real hard about what to do next, but man I want to slap those papers down so bad!

Hey by the way... how the hell did you know my name was Will Robinson?

[Danny Noonin]

Have to admit, never really thought about them taking revenge and sticking me with a non-flying gig or something to screw me, so I appreciate that perspective.

I'm not saying anyone would take revenge. Very rarely do guys get bad deals out of spite, even though many times guys are wrongly convinced that's why they got a bad deal.

You do have to step back and look at things from a commander's perspective sometimes. It's a tough spot to be in and why they get paid the big bucks. There are very limited good deals to go around. There are more great dudes who've earned a good deal than there are good deals. Someone has to lose. If you were the boss, would you burn one of your good deals on a dude who you know is punching out ASAP anyway, or would you maybe direct it toward another good dude who you are trying to maybe set up down the road as well? Put it this way, what would you do as a leader/officer/manager in that situation if you had to make the call?

If you show your cards early, you might just make a difficult decision for your boss into a no-brainer. That's all I'm saying. It's a big risk to take on a very low Pk (almost zero) palace chase attempt. Only you can decide if that risk is worth it to you.

As for not being worried about getting a job in the airlines....If by that you meant you are totally confident that you can get an airline job, than you're smoking dope and you don't understand the way that world works. I don't care what your resume looks like or who you know, it's not that simple. If by that you mean that you don't care about what kind of job you get, just as long as it isn't active duty, than that's another matter. In that case I'd say to stay the hell away from the airlines. That is absolutely the wrong career to toward if your goal is quality of life, especially for a guy with kids. I know a lot of former military dudes who thought the grass would be so much greener on the other side and ended up either quitting the airlines entirely or weaseled back into an AGR guard or reserve gig because they hated the airline lifestyle. Even if it's better than your lifestyle now, that doesn't mean it's actually good.

Free advice. Take it for what it's worth.

[Guest chuy]

If you were the boss, would you burn one of your good deals on a dude who you know is punching out ASAP anyway, or would you maybe direct it toward another good dude who you are trying to maybe set up down the road as well? Put it this way, what would you do as a leader/officer/manager in that situation if you had to make the call?

I smell a TUI forum topic brew'n!!

[Sourdough]

My PC was just recently approved. 21A, 4 yr ROTC. Helps that my AFSC is on the chopping block this yr for the Force Management Program and I did grease the wheels quite a bit with AFPC (highly recommended). Shaved off only a couple months for an ANG rated slot. My PC was approved within a couple days of AFPC receiving it--I was actually floored at how fast the process was.

Cheers, good luck to all!

[Guest Matt Damon]

Duck,

Don't listen to these "Let's play the 'What-if' game till I talk myself out of an opportunity" Yes you can get hired by an airline maybe not a major right out of the box but you can fly for Trans States, Go Jet, Mesa, it goes on; and they love military dudes. If you have a goal for you and your family put your balls out there, make no excuses, and don't be sorry for going for it.

Trust me when the guys in your squadron find out about your ambition they will but like 'whatever' but then they will start to approach you and ask how you are doing it because, trust me, they have looked into PC too. I PC'd more than a year ago and guys in other squadrons on base are still emailing me asking how I did it. Oh did I mention I was a rated EWO/Nav 1st Lt and I am we picked up as a pilot?

Bottom line: don't listen to these queefs that are trying to talk you out of it, see the change you want, gather the info, act aggressively on what you know and want. Remember a single crab can escape a crap trap but where there are two or more in there and one tries to leave the others will grab his legs and hold him back; don't let that happen to you!

[matmacwc]

YA! Queefs! Haven't heard that word since jr high.

[HiFlyer]

Duck,

Don't listen to these "Let's play the 'What-if' game till I talk myself out of an opportunity" Yes you can get hired by an airline maybe not a major right out of the box but you can fly for Trans States, Go Jet, Mesa, it goes on; and they love military dudes. If you have a goal for you and your family put your balls out there, make no excuses, and don't be sorry for going for it.

Trust me when the guys in your squadron find out about your ambition they will but like 'whatever' but then they will start to approach you and ask how you are doing it because, trust me, they have looked into PC too. I PC'd more than a year ago and guys in other squadrons on base are still emailing me asking how I did it. Oh did I mention I was a rated EWO/Nav 1st Lt and I am we picked up as a pilot?

Bottom line: don't listen to these queefs that are trying to talk you out of it, see the change you want, gather the info, act aggressively on what you know and want. Remember a single crab can escape a crap trap but where there are two or more in there and one tries to leave the others will grab his legs and hold him back; don't let that happen to you!

??? Nobody was trying to talk him out of anything, merely mentioning the very real consequences of one decision. I was one of those commanders Danny was talking about and he's exactly right. The AF is real tight on flying hours and flying jobs and I had to make decisions about who I would recommend to go to jobs that would reasonably lead to better AD flying jobs, and those that were less likely to lead to the next flying level (for instance, going to Stan/Eval as a Flight Examiner or the Ops Sqdn as a training office scheduler. If I had a guy that was doing well and talking career, and a guy who was also good, but constantly talking about ways to get out, or just fly forever and not share the non-flying load (somebody has to do the staff work or there will be no more flying!), I'd give the better job to the guy who wanted to stay around. That's an wise investment from my perspective as a commander, and I tried to spend my flying hours and jobs on poeple I could count on in the future.

The point being made is that nothing has changed in regard to that situation and if you decide PC might be for you, don't advertise it around until you have made a decision and have a plan or you may find yourself getting screwed. If you constantly harp on getting out, people will assume that's your goal and act upon that assumption even if you later change your mind. By the way, that's no different in Big Blue than any civilian company.

If you decide getting out is for you, then fine...I applaud your decision. Have a plan, execute it, and get out. Just don't burn your bridges before you go.

[HiFlyer]

I did have a Guard buddy explain to me how the AF keeps pilots:

"After pilot training and your first assignment, they usually assign you a white jet tour. That usually puts you up the 8-9 year mark. Then they go ahead and stick you in a non-flying staff job. You think about getting out, but realize that if you did you would have to put a big fat ZERO next to recent flying time on airline applications. So you stick it out for another 4 years and take a nice ACP bonus. The Air Force rewards you by putting you in a flying assignment. That puts you at about 16 or so total time, so you have no thought of punching now. Then with only one more assignment between you and the door... the Air Force screws you again by placing you in a non-flying job, further cementing your dependance to the Big Blue Teet."

This is very colorful bar talk, but, of course, is completely backwards, and misses some critical realities. In fact, the Air Force doesn't want to keep all its pilots (nor all of any other career field). The entire system is built around the concept of "up or out" because there are far fewer jobs in any career field as the rank structure increases (something like 60% of pilot slots are for Captain's and below; if they all stayed, there'd be no place to put them). If you really delve into the details, you'll see that the AF starts at the bottom and trains you to "perform duties of a rated pilot". What some people neglect to realize (or choose to ignore) is that the "duties of a rated pilot" include far more than just flying. For the system to sustain itself, it needs pilots to fly operations, train other people, perform non-flying duties at local and headquarters levels to organize, fund, and develop operational capabilities, supervise and command non-flying but aviation-related units, etc. Those jobs aren't as much fun as basic aircrew duties, but have to be done anyway. So, while your buddy's time line is generally correct, those career points aren't designed to suck you into staying, they're actually designed to see if you wish to leave or transition on to the next phase of a career (probably not designed for it exactly, but serve as transition points in the "up or out" philosophy). If you accept that process, you will continually cycle between non-flying staff jobs and flying supervisory jobs for the rest of your career. If you don't want to do that, then get out, go Reserve or Guard, whatever. Its your life and you should go the direction you wish to go.

In my case, I chose to stay, and after the first staff job had a back end supervisor job (not a pilot slot, but almost as much fun deploying around the world with the crews), three additional flying commander jobs (two det CC jobs and one Sqn CC job), as well as a flying (but not as a pilot) job where I occasionally got to travel all over the world. In all, I spent 26 of my 30 years in airplanes collecting flight pay.

I guess the difference between my view and your buddy's view is all a matter of perspective. He isn't necessarily wrong (and I'm not necessarily right), but how you understand the system affects how you respond to it. You have to know the system to use it to your advantage. Keep that in mind.

Edited January 30, 2011 by HiFlyer

[hindsight2020]

This is very colorful bar talk, but, of course, is completely backwards, and misses some critical realities. In fact, the Air Force doesn't want to keep all its pilots (nor all of any other career field). The entire system is built around the concept of "up or out" because there are far fewer jobs in any career field as the rank structure increases (something like 60% of pilot slots are for Captain's and below; if they all stayed, there'd be no place to put them). If you really delve into the details, you'll see that the AF starts at the bottom and trains you to "perform duties of a rated pilot". What some people neglect to realize (or choose to ignore) is that the "duties of a rated pilot" include far more than just flying. For the system to sustain itself, it needs pilots to fly operations, train other people, perform non-flying duties at local and headquarters levels to organize, fund, and develop operational capabilities, supervise and command non-flying but aviation-related units, etc. Those jobs aren't as much fun as basic aircrew duties, but have to be done anyway. So, while your buddy's time line is generally correct, those career points aren't designed to suck you into staying, they're actually designed to see if you wish to leave or transition on to the next phase of a career (probably not designed for it exactly, but serve as transition points in the "up or out" philosophy). If you accept that process, you will continually cycle between non-flying staff jobs and flying supervisory jobs for the rest of your career. If you don't want to do that, then get out, go Reserve or Guard, whatever. Its your life and you should go the direction you wish to go.

In my case, I chose to stay, and after the first staff job had a back end supervisor job (not a pilot slot, but almost as much fun deploying around the world with the crews), three additional flying commander jobs (two det CC jobs and one Sqn CC job), as well as a flying (but not as a pilot) job where I occasionally got to travel all over the world. In all, I spent 26 of my 30 years in airplanes collecting flight pay.

I guess the difference between my view and your buddy's view is all a matter of perspective. He isn't necessarily wrong (and I'm not necessarily right), but how you understand the system affects how you respond to it. You have to know the system to use it to your advantage. Keep that in mind.

Very well put. However, I don't think people are willfully ignorant of the 'up or out'. I think quite simply, most pilots struggle with the recognition that the pursuit of a 20 year career pushes you out of a cockpit. Most these individuals would try to fly for a living on the outside (even at their economic detriment..aka airlines) therefore they are sensitive to any period of time where they are not current and therefore non-marketable for said pursuit. That's it. And so the wheels go round and round.

You know there used to be a time where such a thing as the technician track to a pilot career existed in the military. Being a MAJ with 20 year continuation and flying on all assignments wasn't a reason to consider somebody a "non-team player". Alas, such career allowance doesn't exist anymore, and anybody who so much as purposely attempts said career progression is swiftly marginalized. The dynamic actually reminds me of Office Space, when Michael speaks of the 'what would you do if you had a million dollars' question. "The question is bullchit to begin with, nobody would clean chit up if they had a million dollars...PC load letter, the fuck that means?!" At any rate, the point is that if given a non-punitive choice, most people would pick the cockpit and forego O-5. As such, the machine cannot accept that, so people find things to complain about. If it was possible to stay in the cockpit for 20 years without friction, I submit less people would gripe about ops tempo and deployments, even in light of giving up O-5. But that's really academic as none of this dynamic is largely possible anymore for the median.

Granted, to others, making that paycheck is more important than staying in the cockpit, particularly in the new world of disco belts and ORM sheets and flying that's, honestly, not fun. But the majority would like to stay flying. To each their own.

[matmacwc]

Alright, any pilots doing this, especially 11X's? I'm happy the NAV's and AM Ops people are getting it, but you folks are a little different.

[Karl Hungus]

Alright, any pilots doing this, especially 11X's? I'm happy the NAV's and AM Ops people are getting it, but you folks are a little different.

We've had a few people (pilots) apply for Palace Chase and were approved, but all were extenuating circumstances. One had a terrible event in their personal life, and the others were within 6-9 months of the end of their ADSC anyway. Outside of those scenarios, nobody even knows if it would work. We've basically been told that as soon as you apply, it WILL be denied and you WILL be receiving the next UAV to Cannon/ Grand Forks/ whatever.

That said, if this potential RIF/VSP happens... last one out don't forget to turn off the lights.

[matmacwc]

Alright you PC "approved" people. Was it a rush to get your orders for your "final" AF move? How was that process? Save the spears, I'm only asking for 4 months off my ADSC.

[Pod 26]

Alright you PC "approved" people. Was it a rush to get your orders for your "final" AF move? How was that process? Save the spears, I'm only asking for 4 months off my ADSC.

No rush at all for me. In one of the emails I got on the subject, I was told to notify someone (I can't remember who) when I completed my pre-separation worksheet and ask that my orders be expedited. I completed my part and called that individual after COB Eastern time zone, left a message asking for my orders to be expedited and had them in my inbox the next morning.

I actually feel like I have more than enough time to get my things in order the separate. Right now, I'm two weeks away from separating, so I'll let you know how smooth the rest of the process goes.

Chris