Guest truthbringer Posted February 4, 2004 Posted February 4, 2004 Is it possible to log Actual Time while VFR? For Example, you are flying along and it is 3000-3, you can see the ground/water below you, but you have no horizon, just clouds to the ground. Can you log Actual Instrument time?
backseatdriver Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Are you having to solely use your instruments to navigate or are you navigating visually? If you're navigating visually, then you're obviously not instrument flying, therefore you wouldn't log instrument time just because you were around a bunch of clouds. Of course then again, I'm not a pilot, the above is simply a common sense answer.
Guest whairdhugo? Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 FAR 61.51 (g)(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. The only time I operate solely by reference to the instruments, is when I can't see shit! I used to make the arguement that if you're NAVIGATING solely by instruments (vfr-on-top) then you might be able to log it. However, it was explained to me you still are getting visual cues and references (albeit only a few) from outside, therefore you are not flying SOLELY by reference to instruments. You could just use the old saying - If you see it, log it. If you're in it, double it. Hope this helps!
Guest priorE Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 just a follow up on the last post- you can log instrument time under simulated conditions, but you can only log ACTUAL under the conditions presented in the reg that was cited.
Guest cbire880 Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 If you are interested in getting instrument time under your belt, get a buddy who is a pilot and have him/her play safety pilot so you can do simulated time. But whairdhugo? is right, you have to be operating solely by reference to instruments. So the only time you can get it out of a cloud would be in severly reduce vis when there is no discernable horizon. I know plenty of pilots who navigate by radios or GPS in perfect VFR conditions......still not instrument time.
Guest lewisflyboy Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 Simulated instrument is when you are under a view limiting device such as hood, foggles, or other device. It simulate being in actual conditions. That time can be recorded if either a certified flight instructor is in the airplane or if a miminum of a private pilot that is rated for that aircraft and type if required. Actual instrument applies to the time that is being spent in weather less then VFR. Flying in the clouds, when visibility is low enough where you can't see the ground or any time that you are flying solely by reference to the instruments and navigation equiptment on board the aircraft. Hope that answers the question, Kevin CFII (certified flight instrument Instrument and ground instructor instrument)
BFM this Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by buffettair82: Actual instrument applies to the time that is being spent in weather less then VFR. CFII (certified flight instrument Instrument and ground instructor instrument)Eh, I used to make that argument as well. But when you take a close look at the "solely by reference to instruments" clause, the gray line starts to shift a little; I can take a VFR airplane (no gyros) and fly it in 0 vis (horizontal) if I got one eye on the ground (or the sky if "on top") as a reference. May be tough to hold a heading but at least I can keep the butter side up. Take away that last reference and I better have sumthin spining! ME, G, II [ 06 February 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: flyinjunky ]
Guest whairdhugo? Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 Private Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land + Commercial Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land + Commercial Pilot Airplane Multi Engine Land + Instrument + High Performance + Certified Flight Instructor Airplane + Certified Flight Instructor Instrument + Advanced Ground Instructor = Not a pile of shit when your heading for the airlines and wanna be flying for the Air Force!!!! (No offense meant to anyone, I am merely referring to myself!) [ 06 February 2004, 23:30: Message edited by: whairdhugo? ]
Guest x-wing Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 how often do tanker aircraft and transport aircraft fly vfr? never? How about fighters what methods do they usually use? I imagine vfr i mean they need to see the target right?
Toro Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 Originally posted by x-wing: How about fighters what methods do they usually use? I imagine vfr i mean they need to see the target right?According to AF regs, we're all supposed to fly IFR "to the max extent possible," and only fly VFR when mission essential. For the meat of the fighter missions, we need to fly VFR (BFM, ACM, low fly). But we'll fly VFR as much as possible going to and coming from the MOAs. If it's a nice day out, you're hardly ever going to see a fighter jet on the ILS. [ 08 February 2004, 03:20: Message edited by: Toro ]
iFlyTexans Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 Just wondering how you can go about logging your flight time in a log book or something while going through UPT. Does anyone do it? I heard some people do, but no one in my flight knows how to go about it. Thanks
GW Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 Tex- Much like your promotion, nobody cares about your flight time except for you, unless they suddenly can’t find it and your due to upgrade... I've heard horror stories of guys just getting a blanket X number of hours put on their records because the records people can't find any of their time for the last 3 years, and X hours sounded like a reasonable wag. (I’m sure the senior guys here all have or have heard similar stories) As far as your T-6 time, from what I understand no one really cares how many hours you received during UPT, that all comes out in the wash, but your operational time is important, so my advice is to get a log book and try to keep your records as meticulous as you can. (There is a log book that’s got AF wings on the cover that pretty much reads like the time log in the 781, so it’s easy to just copy it over, the BX should have it) My point is, don't count on the flight records folks to accurately track your career, get in the habit now of logging your flight in a log book after you debrief, it served me well in UPT and I’ve carried it over to Little Rock with me. That’s my two cents, take if for what it’s worth from a un-qualified Co-pilot. GW
Guest C-21 Pilot Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 In the heavy world, your hours play a huge part in your upgrade ability. All time is counted as flying time, so you need to document it somehow. Some folks would say that keeping track of landings, approaches, and other nit-picky stuff is required, but I just kept track of tail numbers, instructor, and flying time. It's all dual time unless you go solo, and if you hit the T-1 track, you'll log some other time as well (which isn't looked at as actual time.....they only want PAA time). Flight records keeps track of your time and curriencies to some extent, but only for 15 months after the fact. I'd recommend now to keep track of all of your 781's. Currently, I log instrument, sim-instrument, night, instructor, primary, secondary, other, and dual...that's about the meat and bones of what you really need.
Guest F16PilotMD Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 Keep your own log just like if you were a civilian. You can get a large professional one at any pilot shop. I have kept track of every sortie since I my solo in a C150, through UPT, F16 FTU, etc...note anything of note. First solo, first supersonic, FLUG, IPUG, first time in the container, first AAA, first live drop, first live drop in anger, 9/11 sortie, etc.... You'll be surprised at how interesting it is to look back through it. Maybe not for 10 years of so, but trust me. I have my father's old log bookS from the dark ages...also very cool. My advice in UPT is take as many pictures as possible and document everything. You won't care for several years but down the road when you're on some web site like this you'll go looking for that stuff.
BFM this Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 IFTex, You're a PP-SEL flying the t-6; it's just a SEL airplane that doesn't require a type rating so log away. Since the feds consider any turbojet a typed aircraft, I'm not sure how my t-37 time will go in my logbook until I start solo sorties. :confused:
iFlyTexans Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 Cool, thanks for all the info. I have seen the log books at clothing sales, so I think I will pick one up and start logging away. Thanks!
Guest whairdhugo? Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 Hey guys, just to clear up the type rating and log book entries quandry. The T-6 and the T-37 require a type rating because they both have turbine engines (turbojet-powered). The definition of a turbojet is: an aircraft having a jet engine in which the energy of the jet operates a turbine which in turn operates the air compressor. Granted, in the Texan's case, the thrust is not actually pushing the aircraft as we typically think of a jet, but it is driving the turbine which is drivng the shaft which is driving the prop. Turbine time is turbine time and you need a type rating for it. However, as with everthing the government does, there is an exception... FAR 61.31 (b)Authorization in lieu of a type rating. (4)The flight- (i)Involves only a...training flight... (ii) Is within the United States (iii) Does not involve operations for compensation or hire unless the compensation or hire involves payment for the use of the aircraft for training... (iv) Involves only the carriage of flight crewmembers considered essential for the flight. So go ahead, log it...it is all training. Uncle Sugar has you covered. As far as logging the solo stuff, it is just like when you were in IFT or getting your PPL. You didn't have the certificate, but could log PIC time only on your solo events...because you were the PIC. FAR 61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot- (i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft... (ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement... (iii) Is undergoing training... I personally log every minute my tookus leaves the ground. I can't understand why anybody wouldn't, it only helps and never hurts. Sorry this was so long, but hopefully it helps.
Guest cbire880 Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 Actually, the regs do specify "turbojet" which means exactly that. A turbine engine that uses jet propulsion. I believe the T-6 has a variant of the PT-6 turboprop engine. Its the same family of engine that they put on King Air 90s and 200s. I know you can fly those without a type rating. Turbojet implies that it is a pure jet engine without a propeller. It reduces down to the way the engine makes thrust and performs. Without getting overly into the engineering, a turbojet engine burns gas proportionally to the amount of thrust it makes whereas a turboprop acts more like a reciprocating engine and burns gas based on the power it produces. Its actually somewhere in the middle, but it does behave differently than a turbojet. Its actually a rather interesting discussion and I'm not sure why they chose that line, but that's the regs.
Guest C150J Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 So I flew a Caravan (675HP PT-6) all summer - should I NOT log this as turbine time?
Chuck17 Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 I believe in that case its considered turbine time, however, turbine time aint necessarily turboJET time...
Guest cbire880 Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 From what I was always taught, its definately turbine time, but doesn't require a type rating since its not turbojet or over 12,500 lbs max gross weight.
BFM this Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 I'm w/C150J: spent a summer flying skydivers in a King Air and Twin Otter--both PT6 powered like the Tex, not a type rating to my name. And the feds like to visit skydive outfits--got to know several of the local FSDO reps, they would have pointed it out if my "turbojet" interpretation of Pt61 was inaccurate. Like they tried to point out that I needed High Alt for the King Air, which would never pressurize again since we'd taken off the door and drilled holes in it for the hand rails--I had that signoff though.
Guest whairdhugo? Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 How can you say that a turboprop is more like a reciprocating engine? They are two completely different animals. What reg specifically breaks down turboprop / turbojet / turbofan??? So, it is a moot point about the type rating for the texan, I apologize (I was a few sheets to the wind when I wrote that post). However, it is not a moot point for the tweet and under the aforementioned regs you CAN log your tweet time. [ 09 February 2004, 09:26: Message edited by: whairdhugo? ]
Sneedro Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 FAR 61.31, in the 2003 FAR/AIM (havent got the new one yet... :( ) talks about type ratings. It specifies large a/c (12500+lbs), turboJET a/c, and other a/c as specified by the administrator. So with a single engine land PPL, log that T-6 turbine time as pilot in command, but that is ONLY AFTER you get a high performance and high altitude signoff. Those are required in addition to a PPL for logging T-6 time as PIC. For the T-37, it appears as if a type rating will be necessary.
Guest AirGuardian Posted February 9, 2004 Posted February 9, 2004 Don't forget for the T-1 guys, you get the Beechcraft and Mitsubishi rating if you want! Took the test downtown if I recall correctly... $1-200 or something - it's all very vague now, but I have the certificate.... I heard, but don't recall how but some guys did get if free... Unsure!
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