?s on logging flight time

[Guest skydog77]

I want my PCSM to be as high as possible so I am going to start flying with my friend who owns a C-182. He is not a CFI and I do not have the $ to pay for one. Period. He does, however, know quite a bit about flying and could show me some "basics." Can I count the hours that I am flying with him towards my PCSM? I understand that to get my PPL I must spend X amount of time with a CFI. This is out of the question but I do understand if I have some hours this will help my PCSM. Bottom line...will these hours count???

[Guest montanamattdavis]

bottom line, nope. your only way to count hours will be if you have your ppl, or fly with a CFI. Sorry that it has to be that way, but that is how everbody does it.

[Buddy Spike]

They may help you do better on the hand-eye coordination stuff, but they will not help your overall score.

[Gravedigger]

If it's a 182RG, you'll get good at SA, if not, at least you can get a feel for constant speed props and high performance.

[Guest egovolo]

I understand financing a PPL can be difficult, there are however other options. As a CFII I would occasionally trade my instructional time for flight time in a particular aircraft. (Because CFII's don't make enough money to rent one!) You might ask around.

[Whitman]

never flown an ultralight, but does time in an ultralight count if you have your ppl?

[Gravedigger]

Here is the official rule on logging time.

Now FAA Order 8700.1, Volume 2, Chapter 1, page 1-46 and 1-47, paragraph 9.B. states, in its entirety, that:

"B. Logging Time. Unless the vehicle is type certificated as an aircraft in a category listed in FAR §61.5(B)(1) or as an experimental aircraft, or otherwise holds an airworthiness certificate, flight time acquired in such a vehicle may not be used to meet requirements of FAR Part 61 for a certificate or rating or to meet the recency of experience requirements."

Which means, in effect, in order for the flight time to be logable, the flight time must have been acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft category as listed in §61.5(B)(1), and is:

(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry that has a civilian type designation and has a current standard, limited, or primary airworthiness certificate;

(2) An aircraft of U.S. registry that has a civilian type designation and has a current airworthiness certificate other than standard, limited, or primary;

(3) An aircraft of foreign registry that has a civilian type designation and is properly certificated by the country of registry; or

(4) A military aircraft under the direct operational control of an armed force of the United States.

Basically, if you register your lawn dart with the FAA, it will be experimental and you could log time.

[Guest pilotcj525]

Originally posted by flyinjunky:

Don't agree. It would be no more a leap for a no-time ppl stud to jump in a 182 than an IFT grad to get in a tweet. After about 10 hours, it would be transparent.

The challenge would be for the CFI. The CFI would have to get over the "this is too complex" mindset and tailor the instruction to meet the need (IE a few extra study assignments, ground discussions, etc) It might be argued that you could produce a better product--one that doesn't snatch the throttle back to make up for poor inflight planning and SA and instead makes better decisions further out ahead of the plane.

Folks have gotten their PPLs in other than 152s and warriors. My first PPL student had to transition to tricycle gear shortly before his checkride. As crazy as it sounds, initial PPLs have been handed out "MEL".

As a CFI myself, I must disagree with this. There is a difference between learning to fly a tailwheel aircraft and then converting to tric just before a checkride. That task is actually less complex as far as cognitive workload. Plus, if she was at the point of getting her PPL, she already had the rest of the flying worked out. Once you have the flying figured out, learning to land a different configuration should only take a few flights. Building a student from beginning to PPL standards in a 182RG is a bit different because you are doing so in something that is quite a bit more complex to someone with no experience. It may not seem like a big deal to us, but there will be times when the student is overload. For example, it's hard enough to learn how to control the transition between cruise and slow flight without worrying about another engine variable and configuraiton variable(gear). If you look at some research, increasing the amount of cognitive workload is good until a certain point. When there's too much going on it just becomes harder to learn and less information is retained in the end. This is one reason everyone started learning in cubs before they moved to T-6's in the early days of the Air Force(I guess it wasn't quite the air force yet though). Not having extra levers and gauges helps that much in the initial training. As I'm sure you remember reading for the checkride(in those really boring FAA books about the 'right' way to teach) , flight training is best done in blocks that are then related to each other. Doing private instruction in a complex aircraft is not optimized to that law of learning. anyway, that's just my opinion really, and you have a right to yours. Just thougt I would throw that out there. and of course by saying this, I will readily admit that there are always exceptions to every theory.

--CJ

[BFM this]

Well, CJ, I hope I didn't sound like I was describing the path of least resistance. I was hypothesizing what a motivated student might be capable of when paired with an instructor who was able to think outside of the part-141 container.

But we've all got our opinions...

[Guest Sven]

Improving your PCSM might have just gotten much easier since the the Sport Airplane class is comming, I believe Nov 1. You will be able to just get a Sport Airplane Certificate and collect hours flying around. You will have a some limitations as a sport pilot, i.e. Night Flying prohibited; but all hours in a sport plane will count toward any certificate or rating.

This will flying less expensive, hopefully.

[Gravedigger]

Check out the FARs. If you thought recreational pilot is gay (it is), the limitations of sport pilot will astonish you. All you have to do anyways is solo the crap out of a 152. You don't need a PPL to log time, and you should be able to solo within 15 hours or so, so you can't beat that for cheap.

[Guest skydog77]

All right I am confused! To get your PPL you must fly x amount of hours solo, correct? Earlier it was mentioned that to log hours you either had to a.) have your PPL

b.) log the hours w/ a CFI

So could I log some hours with a CFI and then fly with my friend who is not a CFI and count those hours ????

[Gravedigger]

No. You must either be with a CFI, have your PPL, or have a sign-off to solo. There is no limit to the number of solo hours you can earn. Solo hours are counted as Pilot in Command (PIC) time which are very valuable for later ratings. If you solo in like 10 hours, you could spend close to nothing if all you want is to build time. From there, rent a plane for ~$50/hr. and knock yourself out.

[Guest pilotcj525]

Originally posted by flyinjunky:

Well, CJ, I hope I didn't sound like I was describing the path of least resistance. I was hypothesizing what a motivated student might be capable of when paired with an instructor who was able to think outside of the part-141 container.

But we've all got our opinions...

Absolutely, like I said too there are always exceptions. I'm sure the motivated student would do just fine. But then again, I think there would be relatively few cases where a student in the 182 would be learning more effeciently than he would if he at least got a little experience in a trainer first. And yes, we've all got opinions based on our own experience. Maybe we're both right.

-CJ

[Guest NoseArtGal]

I would recommend finding a reliable aircraft (won't fall out of the sky) and having an instructor solo you for the pattern (should take three rides or so) and then I'd tell him, "Thanks! You can go now!" And then I'd spend that time building hours in the traffic pattern just landing and landing until you puke. Build up as many hours as you can this way while working on your landing picture (which I think is the most beneficial part of civilian flying translating over to UPT - other than instrument time if you're rich). That way you don't have to pay the instructor, you concentrate on landings which will help the most (since you'll do little VFR flying at UPT anyway and the VFR flying you will do will be short and easy), and you can build hours for your PCSM. And if you don't have a PPL (which you won't by staying in the pattern) then you can still get a free PPL with IFT once you get a pilot slot.

Of course if you have the time and money...any instrument time will help you the most for UPT.

[Guest Dirt Beater]

For your winged-types out there, what's the standard way to log your hours? I've heard of guys using Excel and stuff like that...but does anyone maintain a physical, paper logbook?

[Guest Mondul]

DB:

Yeah, as a CFI I still keep a paper logbook in one of the Jepp books. However, I back my Logbook with photocopies at the end of each month just in case.

By the way, did you catagorize yet?

My big week is coming soon and I was wondering how you faired...

[Hacker]

There are two schools of thought on logging your military flying time in a paper or electronic logbook.

One: Keep all your hours, civil and military, in a paper/electronic logbook you keep yourself. The up-side of this is that you will be able to keep remarks with all your sorties and that will be good when you want to review them someday (perhaps for a job interview). The down side to this is that you will have to keep up on comparing your logged hours to what AFORMS logs. I did this for about 3 years and then quit because most of the time when I located "errors", the errors were mine (in other words, my personal log was wrong and AFORMS was correct).

Two: Keep a logbook for your civil flying and let the USAF track all your flight hours. The down side to this is that it will be tough to show your experience to the FAA when you want to go for higher ratings (you'll have to show your logbook *and* pull a certified copy of your AFORMS printout), and if you want to use your instrument checkrides to fulfill your BFR requirement, you have to double-log the sorties. The up-side to this is that when you go for your airline interview, the HR people will only have one set of logged time to look at instead of two. I have heard more than one instance where the HR folks discovered discrepancies between the AFORMS times and the private log times...that brings the validity of *all* your logged hours in to question.

So, it's your call. There's no right or wrong way to do it.

I wish that I had kept all my military time in my civil logs, but it's been several years since I stopped doing it (because of the airline interview horror story I heard) and it's toooooo late to catch up.

[Guest CBStud]

Here's something an airline buddy taught me. Have a seperate logbook for your military time. Most airlines give you a 'x' factor for mil time. It will be much easier to go back and total all that time up if you have a mil only log book. Plus, do you really want T-38 entry next to a C172?

[herkbum]

I keep a paper logbook. I make sure what I put in the logbook matches the -781 (hour for hour, column for column). This way there are no discrepancies. I log the hours after every flight. I never want to get behind again, it's a pain in the a-- to catch up.

[ViperStud]

Hey dudes hope everyone is doing well, and yes I DID use the search function like a grizzled old vet but couldn't find any answers. I'm backlogging some Viper B-course hours and curious how to log them. For the purpose of these questions I'm assuming pic=ac, if that's wrong let me know. Obviously my dual rides prior to the I-check are logged as dual received. Are the solo ones prior to check dual for the same reasons as in UPT or are they solo/pic since I was already winged?

After the check though you you fly some rides dual with a "safety observer"/instructor in the pit, like your first tanker, night ride, bombing missions, etc. Should I still log pic since I've already done my form 8 in the jet or is it dual received since I have an instructor in my pit?

I know it won't make a difference in the long term if I run up thousands of hours, but you know how anal we pilot types can be, sts. Thanks for the answers/opinions.

PS Hey rumplefishie if you're out there did you do anything special for mother's day?

[Guest JArcher00]

Are you logging for application purposes down the road, just keeping track or what? Like the discussions in the past, the term PIC can be a monster depending on how you want to use it. I would highly suggest getting a computer logbook which makes sorting and filtering out hours down the road easy. Start it early b/c when you try and catch up later it is nearly impossible.

[Ryder1587]

Well, I guess this ain't gonna help you, but I do have another question. This is for GA. Right now I have like 39.6 hours, about to do my 5 hours cross country and then practicing manuevers for the checkride. Outta that is like 10 hours of solo, and I was told that it isn't PIC time until after I get my license, before I can log it as that. I'm just curious, if I'm the only one in the airplane how cant I not be the PIC? Makes no sense to me.

[Guest JArcher00]

You can log PIC. Solo counts as PIC in every case.

[Guest Wxpunk]

Ryder, is anyone else in the airplane? No? Then I hope you're in command! :D

"Maxwell Tower, Cessna 339, five miles east of airfield at 3500, inbound for the option, you've got the airplane." :D :D :D

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Wxpunk