?s on logging flight time

[rescue]

PilotKD, I (as well as the FAA & AOPA) gotta disagree with ya here.

Here’s an article from AOPA that addresses the issue. “Logging PIC time” by John Yodice (AOPA Jan 2005).

Here is a subtle legal concept for you "hangar-flying lawyers." Did you know that there is a difference between acting as pilot in command and logging time as pilot in command? Our discussion of these requirements presents a classic case that illustrates the difference. Let's assume that we have a private pilot with a single-engine land rating who is getting training in a complex (or high-performance, or tailwheel) airplane. May the pilot log the time as pilot in command? The answer is yes, as long as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls. That's because FAR 61.51(e) provides that a pilot may log PIC time of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated as long as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls. However, from our discussion above, it is clear that the pilot may not act as pilot in command of that very same airplane until the pilot completes the training and gets the instructor endorsement required by FAR 61.31. As I say, subtle. But if you are getting the training we have talked about you may log the time as pilot in command assuming you are rated for that aircraft. The flight instructor is actually pilot in command.

There's more in the FARs if you want to read further into it...but I don't. The FAA has also put out answers in relation to this same topic (search the FAA's site or AOPA's).

[CHQ Pilot]

I think you misunderstood what PilotKD was trying to say. I don't think he is saying that as sole manipulator you can't log PIC. That is what you can do as far as the FAA is concerned. The issue is if you are applying to an airline, they have different stipulations on what they consider "PIC". It all depends on the airline and what their policy is. I know SWA will only accept time as the "A" code. All other time is SIC. For straight civillian, PIC time can only be counted if you signed for the aircraft (the assigned Captain). The issue would be is that if you logged time as say a FP or a First Officer as PIC when you were sole manipulator (but didn't sign for the aircraft), the interviewer may catch on when reviewing your records. If you're a prior airline pilot, there is usually a shift from all SIC to all PIC. Military pilots would show a shift from predominately SIC to predominately PIC. That is generally how airlines look at logging time. I know Southwest wants it that way because that was how it was relayed to me directly from one of their recuiters.

You are correct that if the FAA reviewed your records, you would still be legal in their eyes for meeting minimum PIC requirements for ratings and currency.

[Murph]

On a completely different note. Some old heads I've spoken with have expressed some regret over not logging their military flights in a civilian log for sentimental value.

While I couldn't justify writing "Took T-37 out to MOA, busted top of area and plinked the jet in the runway on my full stop", I imagine the real world stuff might be a worthwhile entry; stuff that I can reflect upon when I'm retired and living on my private island in the Caribbean.

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by CHQ Pilot:

I think you misunderstood what PilotKD was trying to say. I don't think he is saying that as sole manipulator you can't log PIC.

CHQ, thanks. This is exactly what I was trying to say. Not sure where I was unclear.

Originally posted by rescue:

PilotKD, I (as well as the FAA & AOPA) gotta disagree with ya here.

Right from the FAR/AIM:

Pilot in Command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight;

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of flight.

Does a rated MC/FP (copilot) have final authority for the operation and safety of flight? Unless the AC keels over from an E Coli laced boxed-nasty in flight, no. Has the MC/FP been designated as PIC before or during the flight? Nope. Does the MC/FP hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight? If his/her Form 8 rates them as an MC/FP, the answer is "no".

As a rated right seater in an Air Force heavy, I would not feel right logging PIC in my logbook for the purpose of using it to apply for a commercial flying job when I am not rated to sign for the aircraft. I would not be PIC even with my hands on the controls and that's obvious. This "sole manipulator of the controls" crap is sometimes misconstrued. Unless you are solo, it really doesn't mean anything. Sole manipulator of the controls really doesn't have its place in a type designated, crew aircraft. There is no way to specify "A Code PIC" and "other guy PIC" in an FAA logbook, nor do any airline apps I've seen give you the option of logging this kind of flight time. I would not feel right giving my flight time the same value as the aircraft commander's sitting next to me just because I had my paws on the yoke. I'm not calling the shots. If I'm not calling the shots, I don't log PIC time. Very simple. A lot of this is airframe dependant, but to log PIC flight time in an aircraft that has a type rating designation, which many of our heavy airframes do, you must have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check and designated as MP (aircraft commander) to thereby be “rated” before you may log PIC in the aircraft.

This is just like people logging PIC time in the T-1 during UPT. See above. The jet has a type designation to be PIC because it's a turbojet. Many of us got the BE400/MU300 type rating upon graduation, but I did not log PIC time before that even with an FAA commercial multi-engine instrument rating. Some airlines don't even count PIC dual (student time) as "real" PIC time.

"Sole manipulator of the controls" has its time and place. I'm not trying to say that AOPA mag article was wrong, but it better suits the general aviation C-172 world than it does type designated crew aircraft. For example, say your friend owns a 172. Assuming you've both got an ASEL ticket, whether it be PPL or Commercial, and are both current (Takeoffs/landings and medical), you go up for 2 hours. You both fly an hour each. Each one of you had an hour of being the "sole manipulator of the controls". You both log 1 hour of PIC. Fortunately, a 172 does not require a type rating and only needs one pilot.

There are many different ways to interpret the FAR's, but if one has to go out of his/her way to find little loopholes to further benefit oneself, then that's probably a good indication it shouldn't be logged that way.

[ 24. July 2006, 23:57: Message edited by: PilotKD ]

[FreudianSlip]

Done the search and found a few threads talking about logging PIC time for the airlines but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for so asking to a direct explanation.

2 Mission Pilots, obviously only 1 A code but you don't log "PIC" on the 781 only Pri and Sec. I'm assuming that the A code guy gets the "PIC" time but how is that known or logged or tracked? If two MPs go on a long trip together, can you "split" the A code (PIC time) or is one hosed??

Thanks

[HerkDerka]

Sometimes on missions with two ACs, you'll A-code one and J-code the other. This allows the other guy to be in command when necessary.

PIC time isn't really logged on the 781. Primary and secondary only deal with who's flying the plane.

Here's some info from 11-401:

3.4.1.2. For pilots, primary time is time actively controlling the aircraft excluding hands-on-time flown while instructing and evaluating (log such time under instructor or evaluator). It is not predicated on which set of controls is being used (multi-place aircraft), or on the duty position indicated on the flight authorization. Pilots receiving instruction while controlling the aircraft will log primary time.

3.4.2. Secondary Flight Time : Flight time logged by a crew member who is performing inflight duties related to the crewmember’s specialty, but who is not controlling the function of that specialty. Except as listed below, the total secondary time logged in each specialty may not exceed the total flight time. When in excess to the crew complement, a remark will be placed in the remarks of the AFTO Form 781 depicting the secondary duties performed by additional aircrew.

That's why most people just split it. It's your job to figure out your PIC time for an airline application. Basically, just keep track of your total flight time where you were in command. Keep an FAA logbook to track it.

Fly what you can, log what you need.

HD

[ 06. October 2006, 09:17: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[FreudianSlip]

Do you mean I code?? J code is for inexperienced, I believe, could be wrong.

But thanks for your answer

[Techsan]

Originally posted by HerkDerka:

Fly what you can, log what you need.

Always good advice, however I go by: "Fly what you WANT, log what you need."

[Guest foties41]

Also remember it is hidden in reg somewhere, for me I think it is (CONOPS, Annex C) for your airframe look in 11 -2XXX V 3 or vol 1. Even though 1 guy signs for the jet, he may verbally give the A code to someone else, if you all want to split the PIC time.

[Herk Driver]

Originally posted by FreudianSlip:

Do you mean I code?? J code is for inexperienced, I believe, could be wrong.

But thanks for your answer

Codes are different at every base. At least in the Herk community.

Didn't AMC have an FCIF come out in late 2004/early 2005 about the multi-A code thing? IIRC, only one dude had the A-code so that when it was time to screw someone for a problem, they knew exactly who to go after. Someone else could have whatever code made him legal to fly left seat and act as the AC, but the A-code guy couldn't "change".

Has that changed?

[Hacker]

Originally posted by FreudianSlip:

If two MPs go on a long trip together, can you "split" the A code (PIC time) or is one hosed??

The major airlines currently only give you PIC hours if you signed for the aircraft. Yes, this is different than the FAA Part 61 rules.

For example, here's what Southwest has to say about it:

Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by FreudianSlip:

Do you mean I code?? J code is for inexperienced, I believe, could be wrong.

But thanks for your answer

No, I mean J. It changes per unit. A-code is the only one that doesn't.

HD

[Guest SUMA]

To elaborate on Hacker's post...

FAR 61.51(e) Logging PIC Time

(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that time during which that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

I log everything IAW this reg which means all my primary time. If an individual airline doesn't want to count the time, that's fine. When I submit numbers to them I wont count it.

[ 06. October 2006, 16:16: Message edited by: Wink ]

[BrownTail SandFlea]

It's fair to say that most AC's split Primary & Secondary time with the CP in the Herk, regardless of who was the sole manipulator of the controls. Watching SCNS drive the autopilot while your AC has the radios hardly passes the common sense test of "in command" time. But good luck with explaining that at your interview.

[Guest stusakss]

I always heard that with the way the USAF does Primary vs Secondary time, as far as civi stuff goes, PIC hours don't exist pre-AC cert, and everything after AC cert is PIC hours...unless it is a checkride or something.

HerkDerka is right on, keep track of your hours that you intend to use on the outside seperately...cause it is two different methods of tracking. Me...I don't becasue I never intend to fly for an airline, so for me it does not really matter. Kinda a nice relaxing way to go actually.!!

[FreudianSlip]

so I say this jokingly, but I guess PIC comes down to who's name is at the top of the 781 (who's name was on the top of the orders) and if you can interpret the scribled initials at the bottom.

[Guest Broncopilot943]

Howdy. I just started flying at UPT, and I'm curious as to whether people typically log their training time in their civilian logbook at dual recieved or not. The reason I ask, is usually flight logged as dual recieved are signed off by an instructor, and these, of course, wouldnt be. I just dont want someone down the road questioning whether I actually got flight instruction on the flight when I go for a civilian flying job. Anyone have any experience with this?

[Hacker]

Search this topic...this one has been discussed before. It's a complicated one and there are many different things to consider.

First off, I highly recommend you log your UPT sorties in a personal logbook, especially tail numbers, instructors, and callsigns. Why? That information won't be in your permanent AFORMS record. Not sure how they're going to do it in the TIMS era, but to the AF your SUPT time is just considered "student" time and not worth anything. It will be in your AFORMS record as a chunk of total time only, and the individual sorties will be lost to history if you don't document them yourself.

Before you leave UPT, get a TIMS summary printout of all your sorties, and that will be the "proof" you're looking for. By the way, at the end of UPT you'll have the opportunity to take the FAA military equivelency test, which will give you a Commercial/Multiengine/Instrument rating. The FAA DE that signs your paperwork will need to see that TIMS or AFORMS printout. Once you get that rating, nobody will question the validity of your logbook entries, but keep that summary printout from the AF as backup just in case.

Now, as far as the instruction going in your logbook as "dual" even though the IPs are not FAA CFIs, I say yes - log it as dual time. On solo flights you should also log PIC time, as it conforms to the Part 61 rules for PIC.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that you should carefully consider mixing your military time and your civilian time in the same logbook. The reason is that your AFORMS record is the "official" documentation of your military flight time. You will run into problems if your personal logbook doesn't precisely match what's in your AFORMS record.

If you do choose to log the time in the same book, be diligent about making sure the numbers match. You'll run into issues later on in your career with logging PIC time, as the way the USAF does it is different than the FAA.

You will be able to review your AFORMS record annually once you're flying operationally, and I recommend that you take your personal logbook with you to that records review and look at EVERYTHING line-by-line. Going back later and trying to correct errors in AFORMS years after the fact is a real b*tch.

Personally, I log my civi and military time together, but I use an electronic logbook. If I need to separate out the time for any reason, it's easily done electronically. It's not so easily done in a paper logbook.

[ 07. October 2006, 10:37: Message edited by: Hacker ]

[Guest sickels101]

One technique that I use is get a copy of the 781 with the flight hours and keep a file with all of them. Then when you get time and can sit down and figure out how to do it properly you can and you have all of the documentation right in front of you.

[LT4Life]

Originally posted by SoNotToSpeak:

One technique that I use is get a copy of the 781 with the flight hours and keep a file with all of them. Then when you get time and can sit down and figure out how to do it properly you can and you have all of the documentation right in front of you.

That's a good idea. I wish I would have did that when I was in UPT. We had a Navy instructor that had to do it, now I realize it's a smart idea, not a hassle.

[HercDude]

Anyone know the reg that specifies what is required to log PAA hours? Specifically, do you accumulate PAA hours when under instruction? I've searched 11-202, 11-401, 11-2C-130v1 & v3 to no avail.

[Coasta]

HercDude,

You're looking in the right spot. Go back to 11-401 and search "Primary Time." You should find your answer.

"3.4.1.2. For pilots, primary time is time actively controlling the aircraft excluding hands-on-time flown while instructing and evaluating (log such time under instructor or evaluator). It is not predicated on which set of controls is being used (multi-place aircraft), or on the duty position indicated on the flight authorization. Pilots receiving instruction while controlling the aircraft will log primary time."

Coasta

[HercDude]

Thanks but that isn't what I am acutally looking for.

11-401 3.4.1 covers Primary Time (vs Seconday/Instructor/Evaluator Time). What I am looking for is the definition of Primary Assigned Aircraft (PAA) hours as it is used in 11-2C-130v3 5.4.2 (it's also used a lot in chapter 9).

[Guest nunya]

Other than that reg, I've only seen PAA used to refer to what a base or wing owns. "McChord owns 69 C-17 primary assigned aircraft."

Without any publication to back it up, I think the wording is such that a C-21 guy might come to C-130s and be a copilot, so you can't say "A 500 hour copilot..." because the idea is to require C-130 experience. The C-21 guy might have 690 hours, but he won't have PAA time in the 130, so that's there to specify what type hours.

If you've only flown the Herk since UPT, it's all PAA time.

[dmeg130]

I've seen different interpretations, but in the rescue world, your schoolhouse time DOES count as PAA time, as it shows up on your ARMS history. For us, slick time counts as C-130 total time for upgrade, but not PAA. We do include ABQ time as PAA, whether in the HC or MC. And, in a final confusing caviat, since we have some slicks assigned to our squadrons and do tac missions in them, we count slick time AFTER you arrive at the squadron as PAA time for upgrade (WG/CC approved).

So...a slick guys cross flows and has 1000 slick hours and his 40 hours from ABQ has 1040 C-130 hours and 40 PAA hours (for us). Clear?