?s on logging flight time

[Guest]

You know that the FAA considers the "flight time" to start when the aircraft first moves under it's own power for the purposes of flight, ergo, at taxi time.

Yes, that has been pointed out to me 69k times.

Naturally, if they're doing it on the 781, then the issues you brought up are valid.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Guest]

Valid, but if enough hours are missing, it's at least possible it could delay something...i.e. an assignment requiring X IP hours or something like that. But yes, that's probably a far-fetched possibility.

Don't even get me started on logging IP time. I have heard every stupid argument in the book about when a person thinks they should log IP time once they become an IP. Guys would log IP time on my wing and I would ask them "what, exactly, did you instruct inflight on this sortie today?" I've seen people log IP on pond crossings. I've even seen people log IP time in combat.

I had an accident board crawl up my ass with a microscope after a Class A where a guy crashed on the sortie after I had given him instruction on the same mission type. They were looking for discrepancies in my logging of flight time (specifically IP and NVG time) and they came away with nothing since I only logged IP/NVG time for the portions of the sorties where I was actually doing those things. I don't think a logbook would've helped me much there so I didn't become a logbook convert.

As for the rest of your perspective, fair enough. I really have no issues with guys keeping a logbook if it makes them feel better. I know the SARMs folks can screw up, I had them lose 300+ hours of NVG time once (among other stupid things). I guess I didn't really care that much as long as my stuff was directionally correct since it wasn't like I could cash flight time in for anything and I've never held to the belief that flight time = pilot skill.

Flight hour program runs off 781 time, so no lost sorties. Thought everyone was doing it that way (sts).

Do the math on a low turn schedule...10 turn 8 x 0.2 (which is what I always saw guys log for taxi time) = 3.6 hrs which is at least two sorties of flying time lost per day in a fighter squadron where sorties are far more meaningful than hours. That's ten sorties per week. That's just plain stupid and wasteful. Log the extra time in your logbook if you want but don't waste the training.

[Learjetter]

Do the math on a low turn schedule...10 turn 8 x 0.2 (which is what I always saw guys log for taxi time) = 3.6 hrs which is at least two sorties of flying time lost per day in a fighter squadron where sorties are far more meaningful than hours. That's ten sorties per week. That's just plain stupid and wasteful. Log the extra time in your logbook if you want but don't waste the training.

I must have mis-typed: the extra 5 min is logged on the 781. On the 781H, we log the actual TO to LAND time. So jet time for flight hours program and time change items etc. is taken from 781H, and pilot time for ARMS comes from the 781 with the extra 5 min added.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Per AFI 11-401, 7 Mar 2007:

An AFTO Form 781 aircraft sortie begins when the aircraft begins to move forward on takeoff or takes off vertically from rest at any point of support. It ends after airborne flight when the aircraft returns to the surface and either of the following conditions occur: a) the engines are stopped,

or the aircraft is on the surface for five minutes, whichever occurs first

...

I don't care about the 15 hours a year from the FHP, that's not my problem. I add 0.1 to every sortie and sleep well at night.

[Guest Crew Report]

I must have mis-typed: the extra 5 min is logged on the 781. On the 781H, we log the actual TO to LAND time. So jet time for flight hours program and time change items etc. is taken from 781H, and pilot time for ARMS comes from the 781 with the extra 5 min added.

So you have different land times on multiple documents? Must be a technique.

[Learjetter]

So you have different land times on multiple documents? Must be a technique.

Ok...obviously I'm not explaining this well...I'll try this again. If I takeoff at 1500z and land at 1609z I'll log a 1.2 on the 781h as aircraft time. On the 781, for pilot time, I'll log the takeoff time as 1500z and the landing time as 1614z, for a 1.3. So, for ARMS, per 11-401, we're logging the extra 5 min to account for taxi time. But flying hours and aircraft phases or time change items, we use aircraft time from the 781h, so we don't lose hours or sorties or change parts prematurely.

[Bergman]

Ok...obviously I'm not explaining this well...I'll try this again. If I takeoff at 1500z and land at 1609z I'll log a 1.2 on the 781h as aircraft time. On the 781, for pilot time, I'll log the takeoff time as 1500z and the landing time as 1614z, for a 1.3. So, for ARMS, per 11-401, we're logging the extra 5 min to account for taxi time. But flying hours and aircraft phases or time change items, we use aircraft time from the 781h, so we don't lose hours or sorties or change parts prematurely.

Ummmm...wow. I have never even heard of that before. I'll caveat that my experience is limited to -135s, but everywhere I've been MX makes a copy of the crew's 781 and there will be trouble if the times don't match.

[Learjetter]

Ummmm...wow. I have never even heard of that before. I'll caveat that my experience is limited to -135s, but everywhere I've been MX makes a copy of the crew's 781 and there will be trouble if the times don't match.

It's not my technique, it's SOP. Active duty lears are maintained to civil airworthiness standards and use some civil rules on the MX side. In this case, both sets of times (1.2 / 1.3 from the example above) are written on the 781H (using normal block and one of the engine cycle/weps load columns) and the special use block of the 781. In short, pilot/ARMS time gets calculated and logged per 11-401and jet time gets logged per TO and LAND times. Both totals get logged on the 781 and 781H and are checked by ARMS and MX and QA/CAMS. I'll stop now before everyone's bored to tears...probably too late.

[HuggyU2]

Ummmm...wow. I have never even heard of that before.

Same for my experience in AETC, SAC, and ACC.

[Guest]

Per AFI 11-401, 7 Mar 2007:

An AFTO Form 781 aircraft sortie begins when the aircraft begins to move forward on takeoff or takes off vertically from rest at any point of support. It ends after airborne flight when the aircraft returns to the surface and either of the following conditions occur: a) the engines are stopped,

or the aircraft is on the surface for five minutes, whichever occurs first

...

You are quoting a sortie definition as justification for logging flight time. I've seen this quoted before, believe me. The "on the surface for 5 minutes" is meant to describe when you should terminate a sortie and then begin a new one when you takeoff again, if you do. This provision is primarily used by heavy and helo guys who may sit on the ground with the motors running in the middle of their mission. When I flew helos I knew guys that would lift up to a hover at 4:59 so they didn't have to "break the forms" and could keep the flight time clock moving as part of the original sortie. That always made me laugh but not as hard as I laughed when guys would get teary eyed when I was the AC and said NFW, that's stupid (primarily because I was an FCF pilot and the longer I could extend between FCF for aircraft coming out of phase the better...they sucked).

I have seen A-10 guys use this in the Guard (I doubt any other Guard fighter units do this but they might) for "taxi back" counters. Using this same line they can go to the range for 10 minutes, land nearby and wait five minutes, take off again and hit the range for another 10 minutes (or less) and call it/get paid for two sorties. I don't think I need to tell anyone here what I said the first time I heard someone talking about that.

I don't care about the 15 hours a year from the FHP, that's not my problem. I add 0.1 to every sortie and sleep well at night.

I'm sure you don't care. Clearly you don't see it as your problem. No one I have ever had this conversation with who has held you opinion has ever given a shit nor have they seen this as one of those issues where they need to consider something bigger than themselves. It is always about rationalizing and justifying entitlement to their bullshit 0.1 (or often 0.2 because they add their taxi/arming time) of flight time that they were not actually flying per sortie.

When you are in charge someday I hope you give a shit. I hope you will be concerned that you used every possible opportunity to train the guys you are sending out into the shit on night one.

I hope you will also care about trying to get every opportunity to get upgrades and cross countries and any of the other things the guys in your squadron are counting on you to figure out for them. You won't be taking anything away from them by telling them to log their actual t/o and land times but might think you're an asshole...but you're not there to be their friend, you're there to make them better. The guys in your squadron will still get the flight time, they just get to be actually flying the jet doing something useful instead of sitting in dearm.

WWROD?

Technique only.

[Guest]

It's not my technique, it's SOP.

Which is non-standard so don't anyone else out there start this. Believe me, the CAMS/SARMs folks will not be happy.

[contraildash]

According to the AFI11-401, yes that is SOP.

AFTO FORM 781 ENTRIES (CERTIFIED BY THE PILOT IN COMMAND)

ITEM 12

24-hour GMT clock time. The landing is when the aircraft is on the ground after being airborne and any of the following conditions occur: (a) The engines are stopped and shutdown occurs at or before five minutes after touchdown. (b) The aircraft has been on the ground for five minutes after touchdown; however, a series of practice landings is considered one flight. © A change is made in the crew where a crewmember enplanes or deplanes. NOTE: When a flight starts before 2400 GMT and ends after GMT midnight (2400Z), record and report the flight on the date of takeoff. A separate AFTO Form 781 is not necessary.

I don't think there's any ambiguity or room for interpretation there. I have yet to shut down my engines within 5 minutes of landing. So I'll take that +5...per the regs.

[Guest]

According to the AFI11-401, yes that is SOP.

Uh, no it isn't. Read what he wrote. He says it is SOP to log two different times in the forms for his aircraft. That is not SOP across the USAF.

I don't think there's any ambiguity or room for interpretation there. I have yet to shut down my engines within 5 minutes of landing. So I'll take that +5...per the regs.

Noted.

You understand this is written wrt when to break the forms, not to give guidance on why you should log more flight time after you have landed, right?

I'm not trying to quibble with you whether or not you are BFMing the rules to justify logging the extra flight time. I just want to see if you really understand the intent and purpose of this section of the regulation. Seriously.

[contraildash]

I understand it's not justification on people just logging more time, however that is the plain English definition of "landing time" according to the reg.

I'm not trying to pad my time, I'm just following exactly what the reg says. If I shut down before 5 min, then I'll log it as such. But if I don't, then I log the 5 min and no more. I don't understand where some folks get off logging an extra .2 for taxi. That's BS.

I fly C-21s, we do in fact log several different times just as Learjetter has stated. We log the airframe time and also the engine time and they are different. Airframe time is strictly wheels off to wheels on. This is driven by how contract maintenance tracks those hours. We apply the 781 definintion of landing time on the engine time though. Why? We don't own our engines, they are leased from Honeywell and that alone opens up a whole 'nother can of worms on how hours are tracked. It's a shit-show, I know.

Just because we do thing's different, doesn't mean they are wrong. But then maybe, back in the 80's when they brought this jet into the fleet they screwed it all up. I dunno, I wasn't there, can't say.

My hours to sortie ratio is right about 1.5/flight...so if anyone should be a huge proponent of logging that +5 all the time, every time, it should be a dude like me. But I don't care...the number of sorties is more important to me and a better indicator of getting work done.

Edited October 9, 2010 by contraildash

[stract]

thread bump. Wondering if anyone uses LogTen Pro, and if it's worth the $99 purchase price? Or should I just go with an excel logbook? If the latter is the recommendation, please point me to a good excel product so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Thanks!

[HossHarris]

I use logten pro and like it despite not owning a Mac (iphone and iPad only). The downside is that in order to suck in all your sorties, you have to create an excel file. So effectively I have both.

Once you have the logten set up and loaded with the prior history it is exceedingly easy to use and keep up to date. Also very easy to draw out specific information you need.

Logten goes on sale every once in a while. They may still be running $20 off right now. If not, shoot them an email and see if they'd still honor it.

[Dupe]

I use LTP for my civilian flight instructing... It's worth every penny. The fact that it can generate an FAA 8710, quickly answer the odd-ball insurance company questions, and keep track of all the various currencies make it very valuable.

[Chida]

I just use excel. Reasons: I can manipulate the data however I need to for whatever way the prospective employer wants it. Plus, I never need to pay for an upgrade. Seems like every few years the OS changes and the legacy apps need an upgrade to remain compatible, meaning more $$. With excel it's just raw data readable by whatever version of excel is current.

Now, if you're doing smart-phone type stuff, I have no idea because I have a dumb-phone and don't need that. I just input my flights at 'ome.

[RTB]

L10 Pro is pricey but worth it, IMO. When putting my apps together, I found that I needed to gather lots of different hours data and it was simple to filter and create 'smart lists' of any criteria I wanted. For example, when I needed to gather my PIC, student, night, and instrument time for single engine civilian flying, it was easy to create a smart list of all those airplanes. Same when I wanted to gather just military flying info for sortie counts, IP/EP time, etc. I also like that I can enter a flight using my iphone and it updates the desktop database via icloud so it's always up to date.

[Techsan]

What's a logbook?

[HossHarris]

You realize that the AF, in their grand wisdom, only keeps the last 12 months or so of your detail flying history electronically. After that, it's a single printout in your harm office. If that joint burns down, or (gasp) some shoe goons it up that granular data is gone ... Forever.

Electrons are expensive evidently.

[HercDude]

I recently converted my entire flight records folder into an excel spreadsheet. I was astounded by the number of errors I caught that were evident only by looking at the pages it contained. I noticed dozens of times it showed I logged more NVG time than the sortie duration, instrument time while I was on the bunk, total times more or less than what the few 781s I had said, etc. I never bothered to keep a logbook, but based on what I saw - and now really have no way of correcting - I would recommend keeping your own records for anyone who thinks there is a chance they will one day fly for someone other than big blue.

[Easy]

For $9 I recently started using TapForms for iOS. It is a general database app, so I can make a form to track whatever I want and even update that form as needed. It took me about 30 mins to setup the form how I wanted and now I'm up and running. The data is auto backed up to iCloud and I can also export a CSV file to open the data in excel and manipulate however I want. I saw this as a great compromise, paying 1/10th the cost as the pro options and still getting mobile entry, viewing, and searching; cloud backup and easy exporting; and the ability to manipulate it in excel however I want. I should also be able to export the form file so anyone else can start from what I've already built.

[nsplayr]

You realize that the AF, in their grand wisdom, only keeps the last 12 months or so of your detail flying history electronically. After that, it's a single printout in your harm office. If that joint burns down, or (gasp) some shoe goons it up that granular data is gone ... Forever.

Electrons are expensive evidently.

And HARM only keeps paper records for 3 years, at least at HRT. If you want records older than that good luck b/c they're gone gone gone. Found that one out the hard way.

[MTC]

I've been using LTP for a little over a year and am very happy with it. I paid $75. The program used to crash and close more often but most of those bugs have been fixed now. It's got some nice features that I like - checking 30-60-90 hrs, limits, notes for planes, count the number of times you've been to airfields, etc. It took some time at first to set up all the fields to my preference, but now I can quickly input each flight in both the way it will matter post Air Force and also with the Air Force specific categories. I like having something that is accurate rather than just trusting G2 and the flight records shop.

On that note, some have mentioned finding errors in their time. First, I think it really doesn't matter a whole lot in the end if some of the times are wrong, it will all even out. However, if like me you do want your records to be tight just incase that ever matters just record your flights using some method, whether LTP, excel, or keeping 781s. Then take your annual flight records review seriously and actually look them over one by one and compare. I found about 15 errors last time. Also take a second look at the 781 before you turn it in, or the next morning before SARMs inputs the record.