?s on logging flight time

[ARAMP1]

I misplaced my small black jepp logbook (the one that you get with their private pilot kit) not long after I got my PPL and I never kept up with my flight time once in the AF. 

So here I am sitting in my first (and thankfully only) airline interview handing one of the interviewers my single page HARM summary.  They looked at it a total of 6-9 seconds, set it aside and didn't ask me a single question about it.

When I was in indoc, I mentioned that I finally made it to the big-time and I wanted to get a nice, professional logbook where I could finally start tracking of my flight time and keep it prominently displayed on my mahogany bookshelf with the other leather-bound books in my study.  The instructor says to me "Why?  Are you planning on getting another flying job?"     LOL....nope.

So now, to this day, I still don't keep a logbook, but if I could go back and start over, I probably would. 

 

[FDNYOldGuy]

Thank you for all of the great input, guys; you cleared it up nicely for me. Seems like opinions vary for sweating logging flights (with things being much easier these days with the airline hiring frenzy, for sure), but that it's not as vital to worry about all the different times at this point. And that we get to log PIC (not for signing for the aircraft purposes, but for manipulator of controls purposes) with or without the endorsements if you have a PPL.

I also didn't do enough research to understand what all the HP/Complex endorsement entailed. I thought it was a handful of hours with some knowledge/proficiency/maneuver milestones, as opposed to a potentially relatively simple sign-off, which was my bad.

Anyway, thank you again.

[jazzdude]

Only thing I'd recommend keeping track of for your Air force flight time is when you sign for the jet, primarily if you go to a crew airplane. Some guys keep individual flight records (781s). I used mission histories, and when I do my annual records review, I get a personal copy and highlight the lines where I was the A code, and file it away. Then it all gets transcribed into my excel logbook to make the math and totals easier.

Also, try to find someone you trust to walk you through your first flight records review after UPT. I found I was missing about 90 hours 6 years after the fact (my second and third trips in the C-17) when I first started to transcribe my flight records into excel. Fortunately, I had my mission histories from those trips still, and was able to get a correction made to my flight records.

I still maintain my logbook, partially for airline apps, but also since it lets me document more than just time. Locations I went, people I flew with, interesting events that happened, etc.

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[Homestar]

12 hours ago, ARAMP1 said:

So now, to this day, I still don't keep a logbook, but if I could go back and start over, I probably would. 

My dad passed away last New Year's Eve and my mom will eventually hand me my dad's Vietnam and Navy Reserve logbooks.  I'll carry those books with me till I pass them to my kid, should one choose to be a flyer.  His handwriting in those logbooks is an awesome keepsake.

I keep my logbook in Excel, but it just doesn't have the same feeling, you know?

[BADFNZ]

Can anyone explain the conversion from military flight time to the format that airlines keep it?  I keep hearing this "add 0.3" but nothing further.

[Guest]

Can anyone explain the conversion from military flight time to the format that airlines keep it?  I keep hearing this "add 0.3" but nothing further.

Outside of the AF, hours are logged from engine start to shutdown, rather than T/O to landing. Many airlines allow you to add a 0.3 per sortie to correct for how we log flight time.


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[jazzdude]

IIRC, both airlineapps and pilotcredentials (the 2 main airline application sites for most airlines) automatically adjust military time based on what the airline wants. You just tell it what time was military, and the number of sorties flown, and it does the math.

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[pilot]

18 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

Outside of the AF, hours are logged from engine start to shutdown, rather than T/O to landing. Many airlines allow you to add a 0.3 per sortie to correct for how we log flight time.


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That’s not exactly true. By definition flight time for the FAA “commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.”

However, most civilians in small pistons log what the Hobbs meter says, and Hobbs meters are triggered in various ways, the most common of which is based on oil pressure or the master switch on. Airline pilots typically log block out to block in (based on certain criteria, generally brake release after the door is shut and the last brake set prior to the door opening). Technically speaking, until a motor’s fired up and the airplane is moving, the flight time clock isn’t supposed to be started in FAA logging.

I don’t think anyone cares about that technicality, but for people converting their mil time to civ time it’s good to at least know the correct way. Better, just use whatever conversion factor the particular airline you’re applying to says to use. 

[JeremiahWeed]

22 hours ago, BADFNZ said:

Can anyone explain the conversion from military flight time to the format that airlines keep it?  I keep hearing this "add 0.3" but nothing further.

If you take one thing away from this post, make it this.  Each airline may (and probably will) have different definitions of PIC time as well as how they make adjustments for military logged times.

Based on my experience, there are two major parts to the mil to airline flight time puzzle.  The first is what you're alluding to - making our T/O to landing times compatible with the civilian dudes applying for the same job.  So, some airlines allow a conversion factor per sortie while others may allow a percentage of total time.  But that's an airline specific option and not something put forth by the FAA as a method for all military pilots to "civilianize" their times in the same way.  My point here is, there is no way for you to take your military times and "convert" them to civilian times once.  You're going to have to figure out what kind of adjustment each airline allows (if any) and make your times specific to that airline.

The other part of this is what each airline considers PIC time.  They don't necessarily comply with the FAR definition of PIC.  So, once again, you're going to have to scrub your sorties and make adjustments to match what Airline X had decided they want to call PIC time which may not be the same as Airline Y.  One airline I applied to would only accept PIC time post UPT graduation (i.e wings on chest) when I was the one signing for the aircraft and ultimately responsible for it.  That eliminated all student solo UPT time and any dual F-15B/D time during RTU, MQT, etc with an IP on board.  These days, the most common criterion is PIC = you signing for the aircraft.  Some may argue that dual rides in a fighter where you're flying with an IP in your trunk could count as PIC using this rule.  I would counter that the IP is the one ultimately responsible for the aircraft even if you're the one who decides to sign the forms.  It never hurts to be conservative and a few hours one way or the other aren't going to matter unless you get called out on them during an interview by someone who decides to nit-pick.  The heavy guys run into lots more issue when it comes to figuring out what meets an particular airline's definition of PIC.  I can't even begin to offer advice there. 

The bottom line is, scrub your mil times and make sure they're as accurate as possible.  Get a sortie count so if they allow a per sortie conversion, you can easily apply that.  Figure out what meets each individual airline's definition of PIC time.  Put an airline specific cover sheet inside your AF flight records for each interview that provides specifics on your math and how your determined your totals.  Don't waste a bunch of time trying to write them into a logbook.  If you want to use a logbook program or spreadsheet to help with the math, that's your option but it's really not necessary.  Airlines don't care if you have your military time in a logbook.  Frankly, manual, written logbooks have gotten mil guys into trouble on occasion.  One that a guy's been keeping since UPT with accuracy issues or notes about a particular sortie that raise eyebrows can create unnecessary discussion topics in the interview.   I know of one guy who decided it was important to advertise his logbook as one he had been keeping since he began in the military (even though that wasn't actually the case).  When questioned about that, he stuck to his guns and swore had had been keeping the logbook since he started UPT.  The problem was that all logbooks have a copyright date in the front.  His first sortie in UPT, dutifully logged in said book, occurred about 10 years before the printed copyright date.  So, they showed him the door about 10 minutes into his interview.

Keep it simple.  There are enough challenges and pitfalls to the transition, so don't make it harder than it has to be.

[HossHarris]

Or, if you’re a youngun and have the time and motivation .... keep a civilian style logbook where you note the time that your aircraft starts and stops moving under its own power. 

 

I think its it’s a little harder to defend in an interview...but it’s certainly valid. 

[pcola]

Anyone here using LogTen Pro? I’m wondering if the “Relief” time category is an equivalent to USAF “Other” time. Seems like when I categorize my other time as relief time it subtracts if from calculations so seems like it works.


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[FDNYOldGuy]

BLUF: For FPs/non-A coded pilots, what is the best way to log our Primary and Secondary time in personal logbooks if we plan on potentially applying to airlines down the road? SIC, Dual and SIC, or some other way? (***I found some stuff on Page 6 of this thread that talks about non-A coded time being SIC, but it's 15+ year old gouge and I was wondering what more recent thinking/experience might be.)

I don't mean to reopen the can of worms about what PIC time is. As I understand/apply it, Primary time fits FAA PIC as "sole manipulator" and counts toward ATP mins, but doesn't matter to the airlines for their PIC mins when we're NOT A-coded as we're not signing for the jet. Make it PIC if needed to get the ATP; don't make it PIC for the airline mins.

I understand this varies by airline and one size doesn't fit all, but just looking for the best way to track what I'm flying now in my personal logbook to then tailor toward each individual app a few years down the road. I know we'll turn in our AF records as part of the interview, so I don't want to log things incorrectly in an airline app that will raise questions down the road when I show up with my records. 

Thus far, I've just logged Primary time as "Dual Received" (96.69% of the time an IP is in the other seat) and Secondary as "SIC," with the "Total Time" being the sum of Primary and Secondary. ("Other" I log in a separate category outside of my "Total"). Does that seem like it makes sense?

I have heard some folks say log all FP/non-A coded time as SIC (especially since inevitably some of the time is without an IP in the other seat), but I was unsure as it also fits/looks better(?) in the Dual Received category and not making it all SIC allows it to align more with Primary/Secondary totals for tracking purposes. 

Any info is appreciated! I know the PIC question has been hotly debated on here but, if we're solely logging non-A coded military Primary and Secondary flight time to focus on airline apps/hours down the road, what is the current thinking for the best way to do so? Thanks in advance!

Edited January 19, 2022 by FDNYOldGuy
***found older info, but was curious of current thoughts

[CaptainMorgan]

BLUF: For FPs/non-A coded pilots, what is the best way to log our Primary and Secondary time in personal logbooks if we plan on potentially applying to airlines down the road? SIC, Dual and SIC, or some other way? (***I found some stuff on Page 6 of this thread that talks about non-A coded time being SIC, but it's 15+ year old gouge and I was wondering what more recent thinking/experience might be.)
I don't mean to reopen the can of worms about what PIC time is. As I understand/apply it, Primary time fits FAA PIC as "sole manipulator" and counts toward ATP mins, but doesn't matter to the airlines for their PIC mins when we're NOT A-coded as we're not signing for the jet. Make it PIC if needed to get the ATP; don't make it PIC for the airline mins.
I understand this varies by airline and one size doesn't fit all, but just looking for the best way to track what I'm flying now in my personal logbook to then tailor toward each individual app a few years down the road. I know we'll turn in our AF records as part of the interview, so I don't want to log things incorrectly in an airline app that will raise questions down the road when I show up with my records. 
Thus far, I've just logged Primary time as "Dual Received" (96.69% of the time an IP is in the other seat) and Secondary as "SIC," with the "Total Time" being the sum of Primary and Secondary. ("Other" I log in a separate category outside of my "Total"). Does that seem like it makes sense?
I have heard some folks say log all FP/non-A coded time as SIC (especially since inevitably some of the time is without an IP in the other seat), but I was unsure as it also fits/looks better(?) in the Dual Received category and not making it all SIC allows it to align more with Primary/Secondary totals for tracking purposes. 
Any info is appreciated! I know the PIC question has been hotly debated on here but, if we're solely logging non-A coded military Primary and Secondary flight time to focus on airline apps/hours down the road, what is the current thinking for the best way to do so? Thanks in advance!

It’s varies, but it doesn’t get complicated until you upgrade to IP. All Primary+Secondary time prior to AC upgrade is SIC. Primary+Secondary time after AC upgrade, as the A code, is PIC. IP time after IP upgrade is PIC if the A code, and might be PIC, depending on the airline, if not the A code.

Edit to add: T-6 time as a student is Dual Received, T-1 time you can log as SIC.

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[HossHarris]

T6 solo time as a student is PIC as well. It ain’t much …. But every bit helps. 

[FDNYOldGuy]

6 hours ago, HossHarris said:

T6 solo time as a student is PIC as well. It ain’t much …. But every bit helps. 

The caveat I'd heard with T6 time being able to be logged PIC is that it is ONLY IF you had a PPL for ASEL prior to UPT. If you didn't have that category rating, then it wouldn't count as PIC because you would not be rated/qualified in category or have privileges yet.

I did have a PPL prior to UPT, but since I'm also looking for logging time as PIC that is airline accepted/equivalent to signing for the jet, my understanding is the only T6 time that counts is my solo time, since those are the only times the instructor didn't sign for the jet. It would count toward FAA PIC mins for getting an ATP, but just not help for the airlines PIC time.

Either way, thank you for the input, @HossHarris and @CaptainMorgan. Going back through my personal logbook now to readjust the entires accordingly. Knowing now helps me enter things appropriately going forward and saves a mess if I decide to retire from the FD and try the airline route 5+ years down the road. Thanks again!

[Guardian]

Don’t worry about ppl thing. Air Force vs FAA vs airlines is why we are here in the first place. Count solo T6 time. Air Force deemed you the PiC or A code for that flight. Even though you weren’t qualified.

[HossHarris]

24 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Don’t worry about ppl thing. Air Force vs FAA vs airlines is why we are here in the first place. Count solo T6 time. Air Force deemed you the PiC or A code for that flight. Even though you weren’t qualified.

And from the FAA perspective, you’re the “sole operator of the controls” or some such verbiage that lets you log PIC when solo in a T6/T38/F16/F15/A10 before you’re form8 qualled in that aircraft. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by HossHarris

[Hacker]

1 hour ago, HossHarris said:

And from the FAA perspective, you’re the “sole operator of the controls” or some such verbiage that lets you log PIC when solo in a T6/T38/F16/F15/A10 before you’re form8 qualled in that aircraft. 

As a FAA examiner said to me about 20 years ago when I was asking about logging PIC time when I was solo in the T-37:

"You were alone in the airplane -- who was the PIC if it wasn't you?"

[HossHarris]

14 hours ago, Hacker said:

As a FAA examiner said to me about 20 years ago when I was asking about logging PIC time when I was solo in the T-37:

"You were alone in the airplane -- who was the PIC if it wasn't you?"

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

if you flew the T-37, it’s time for new hearing aid batteries and a colonoscopy. 
 

 

what?!!

get off my lawn  

WHAT!?

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by HossHarris

[Guardian]

Knowledge from experience?

[slc]

34 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

if you flew the T-37, it’s time for new hearing aid batteries and a colonoscopy. 
 

 

what?!!

get off my lawn  

WHAT!?

 

 

Ha!  What a coincidence, my Coliguard at home Colon cancer screen test comes today in the mail!

[Hacker]

3 hours ago, HossHarris said:

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

if you flew the T-37, it’s time for new hearing aid batteries and a colonoscopy.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you....my hearing aid is turned down.

[Danger41]

Is there a way to see your time logged as a student in each of the training jets? ARMS summary shows “student time” but all I have is “T-38IFF” and like 2 sorties I sandbagged between UPT grad and IFF start as “T-38”.

[HossHarris]

13 hours ago, slc said:

Ha!  What a coincidence, my Coliguard at home Colon cancer screen test comes today in the mail!

Pooping in a cardboard box is weird 

[HossHarris]

7 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Is there a way to see your time logged as a student in each of the training jets? ARMS summary shows “student time” but all I have is “T-38IFF” and like 2 sorties I sandbagged between UPT grad and IFF start as “T-38”.

Not unless you happen to have your SUPT grade book printouts around …