?s on logging flight time

[Guest JArcher00]

Is 6-9 months worth 10-20 years? Sources say no.

[ 26. March 2006, 08:43: Message edited by: RedDog ]

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Hacker:

You can DEFINITELY count "other" in the "total time" category, but I don't think it's legitimately SIC time.

I guess that was my real question...does "other" count toward "total time"? If so, how would you log it? I've talked to several guys here in the squadron and the prevailing opinion is that "other" doesn't count for ANYTHING, which didn't seem right to me.

The bottom line is that I don't have enough "total time" to apply...unless I count my "other" time. Any advice is appreciated.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Bergman:

The bottom line is that I don't have enough "total time" to apply...unless I count my "other" time. Any advice is appreciated.

Look over at flightinfo.com...there are numerous military dudes over there currently flying for majors, so they'll have a better take on things.

More importantly, when it comes to meeting the minumums, make sure you look at each of the airlines you're applying to carefully. Many of them have specific time modifiers to solve the difference between the military's brake-release-to-touchdown hours and the civilian Hobbs-time hours.

For some it's a multiplier for your overall time, and for others its an addition to each specific sortie.

Modifying your AFORMS-logged time may be enough to put you into the category you want.

WRT "total time", maybe I was reading you wrong...if you're just sitting in the jump seat and not actually being a member of the flight crew, then I think you should not log it as anything (because I don't think the FAA cares about it).

[CHQ Pilot]

I would think that "Other" time doesn't mean anything to people outside the military. It seemed to me a way to have an accountabililty of being on board. I wouldn't count "Other" time towards any total time. I don't even count the sim time because I was told the sims don't have an FAA certification. I'm keeping a record of all my times, but I don't use it for any ratings/resumes.

I pretty sure you can count your Primary time as SIC since the aircraft requires two pilots.

[Scooter14]

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but let's say I go fly a 4 hour AR/Transition sortie and there are three pilots. The left seater flies out to the AR track 1.5, I fly back and do some touch and goes for 1.5, and then I get in the jump seat for the last 1.0.

My 781 says 1.5 primary, 1.5 secondary and 1.0 other, but my "civilian" logbook I keep says it was a 3.0, all SIC time, because the FAA doesn't recognize "other" time.

Does this pass the sanity check with you civil guys out there?

[Guest jassayag]

Yes, that would pass the sanity check, at least at where I work. I wouldn't try to mess with the logbook times at all. I've seen too many people go down hard for it and that's something your career will probably never recover from.

[Combat Platypus]

Yes, that would pass the sanity check, at least at where I work. I wouldn't try to mess with the logbook times at all. I've seen too many people go down hard for it and that's something your career will probably never recover from.

I'm not so sure. If your sitting in the jump seats of John Scientology Travolta’s 707 and you a qualified CP or MP on a 135 the FAA or more importantly NWA/Delta(if they exist in a couple of months), FEDEX, ECT are they going to let you count that time?

Same thing in the T-1 (Beech jet), you can't log time in the jump seat as a crew member, other wise they'd have to pay the dead heads riding to their jobs in the jump seat of the airliners.

(Quick side not the Air Force has a crew chief/Eng sit in the jump seat of a GIII/C-20, but it's not typed for an eng so I don't know if he can long time at all as far as anyone outside the military is concerned)?

I’ve got an ATP (Flight Safety just looked at total time) and a good side job that knew my references and who I’ve been flying for. When I have to get a real job that cares to look at my log book that is sooo F’d up I’m going to have to get it professionally scrubbed.

From people that were in my position now and got hired by SWA, ECT, they said the thing to do was to admit mistakes and correct them.

Seriously my logbook was started when I was 12 and I’ve been trying to keep track of what I think will get me somewhere for 18 years. Now I just try to make sure the times match up.

[Guest TheBurt]

A direct answer to the question on other time, don't count it, just forget about it. You do not want to be at the interview for your dream job and have to worry about something like this, or worse: get caught using it.

Another thing not to mess with: As far as, the FAA is concerned, "Sole manipulator of the Controls", is PIC time; however the majors only count "aircraft commander" time, so 781 primary time when you are a co-pilot (that means MPD for you new herk guys) does NOT count for PIC.

Expanding on this, the interviewers at the majors also know that every time you fly as an AC you may be flying with another AC or IP and that your total MP time is not all (A coded) PIC time. A lot of guys take off 10-20% of the total MP (PIC) time and put that back into SIC time. Many airlines, FedEx included, allow military pilots to add .2 hours per sortie, so if you have a thousand or more sorties this effectively cancels out the 20% that you took off for not really having the A code on 10-20% of your MP time.

When you arrive at your interview most airlines will tell you to bring a sheet with your times broken down, you can have math worked out on paper and submit this with your logbook review. The Form 5 (AForms RIP) is a good place to start with all this, it even tells how many sorties you flew in each crew position in your MWS, additionally count your UPT time as Student time, ie. not SIC or PIC, obviously your solo time in a tweet, T-6, team solo T-1, T-38 solo time counts as PIC, however if you need those 20 hours that bad, maybe you should wait another six months!! Remember to go back and count your sorties from UPT and add the .2 if the airline allows, this will increase your total time.

Hope all this makes sense. Good Luck!!

TheBurt

[ 29. March 2006, 11:02: Message edited by: TheBurt ]

[Guest JArcher00]

OTHER time does not count for anythin in the civilian world. Only Primary and Secondary. Do not log it. The interviewer probably has some military time and knows you will be trying to pull a fast one. If you do log it, let me know when you go for an interview because I will schdule mine the same day. That way it will be 1 less to compete with. Just kidding but do not do it. I have gotten other time sleeping in the back of the plane crossing the pond but never touch a control. I am not SIC there is a PIC, SIC. That is why Flight Engineer time in the civillian world on 747,DC8,DC10, etc does not count as flight time or SIC time same connection.

[Scooter14]

Thanks, Burt and H82. I just want to make sure that, when I do have the hours, I have it all in one sock. I have one computer logbook that I keep pretty well updated with all my civ and mil time, and I want to log it properly day to day (ie - as a co, even if my sortie is 9 hours long, I only log the 4 hours that I have access to the controls) so I don't have to go back through years and years of data to un-f*** it.

I'd much rather have an accurate/conservative log and have to wait 6 more months than try to push through something sketchy and get bent over.

[Guest TheBurt]

Scooter, sounds like you have it in one sock! Good on you for keeping a computer logbook, I wish I had of done the same, it would have saved a lot of time. Just put down all time as a co-pilot (primary + secondary) as SIC.

From you past posts I think you are in a guard/reserve tanker unit, so there should be plenty of guys with an example of a break down sheet. If not, PM me and I will send you mine for an example.

TheBurt

[ 29. March 2006, 11:01: Message edited by: TheBurt ]

[Scooter14]

Burt,

You guessed right, I'm a guard tanker toad. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and it should all work out.

One of my buds who just started at a regional is wicked organized with his book, so I'll check his logbook out and see how his is broken down, so I should be good to go. Thanks.

[Guest SpectrePilot]

Remember, also, the number one thing the airlines look at is "PILOT IN COMMAND" time! So unless you're "A" coded, you can't log any. (Primary/secondary don't have any real meaning.)

When you do start flying left-seat, with the A-code, start your own logbook if you haven't already and double check everything; those are the hours that really count!

[Guest cobaltmetallic]

What is the difference between the way the AF logs flight time and the civilian way? I have inferred a few things from the search function, bu not a direct answer to my question.

[ 10. July 2006, 17:06: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Bergman]

The main difference is the AF only logs from brake release to landing+5 minutes, versus civilian side where you log 'hobbs' time.

[Guest JArcher00]

dead on.

[sky_king]

Some of my best hours were those spent just sitting on the ground with the master switch on. ;)

[Guest rtstolwo]

Hate to call you out Sky King, but that is not how a hobbs meter works. The hobbs meter is wired seperate from the regular electrical systems. Master switch will not turn it on, it is triggered on when the oil pressure reaches a certain level (hence, the engine is running). They do it that way so you can't cheat an FBO who rents out airplanes out of money by swithing off the Master for portions of your flight. That would suck for the FBO.

[Sneedro]

Rtstolwo, not true in all airplanes. I have flown a couple that the meter runs with just the master sw on.

[Guest rtstolwo]

Hmm, I stand corrected. What kind of plane(s)? I am assuming it is something older like a Beaver or something of the like...

EDIT: Added stuff

[ 10. July 2006, 18:11: Message edited by: rtstolwo ]

[Sneedro]

I cant remember the years but they were Pipers. They were old though.

Our engineers take not of our t/o and land times and put that down on the paperwork. They then can figure the hours and minutes to determine flight time. But as Bergman said, its t/o to land time plus 5 minutes.

[ 10. July 2006, 18:33: Message edited by: Sneedro ]

[dontshavemyhead]

some 172m and n models run off of the master switch too.

so much for lowering the flaps for the preflight... ;)

[sky_king]

Also, that may be the way the Hobbs "should" be connected, but when have you ever seen a rental airplane maintained to original standards? I got my PPL in a 1966 C-172 and I was just happy the thing got off the ground.

[Bergman]

One more thing to add...I know plenty of people who keep "civilian" logbooks for their Air Force flying, and they use the FAA method for computing flight time. Cumbersome, but it works.

I have also met several people who haven't kept a civilian logbook until applying for an airline job, then just added .2 or .3 to every AF sortie from their flight records while creating a civvie logbook, with the theory being that if they were questioned they could just say it was taxi time.

[Guest rtstolwo]

I have also heard of something similar to that...I spoke with a United captain and he said that in the hiring process for ex-military flyers what they do is take the regular hours for anybody who flew anything but fighters as is. For the fighter guys, they take all of your flight time and multiply it it by 1.2 to come up with a number that they will use in the hiring process because they understand that fighter guys get less hours than the heavy guys.