?s on logging flight time

[Guest SUMA]

My system is to use one-liners in my civilian logbook for my military time (adding the aforementioned taxi time). For example, I have one line for my T-6 training and one for my TC-12 time. Then, every time I went on a TDY that was one line or switched units...another line. Helps me keep a running total without having to log every single flight. It's too much of a hassle, especially during training.

Technique Only

[ 10. July 2006, 23:06: Message edited by: SUMA ]

[LockheedFix]

How important is keeping track of your military time when it comes time to apply for the airlines? Do you even need to transfer your mil time to a logbook, or can you just give them a printout of your militart sorties and say "Here you go"?

[B-O-double-Z]

Keeping your military time in a civilian log book seems like a waste of time to me.

I would keep a logbook for my civilian flying. For military flying, the flight records, especially along with the Form 8s, are stand alone.

When filling out a appliction, or creating a resume, just add the totals together.

The military flight records are irrefutable. If I were hiring, I would but way more credence on documents maintained and verified by the military, than a civilian logbook (many of which are total crap).

If an employer is so stupid, that they won't look at your military records as verification, you don't want to work for them anyway. Any legitimate company is going to understand what they are looking at. If they think your specific type of military flying needs to have a correction factor (such as X 1.2 as mentioned above) they'll add it. If you do it, you'll just create ambiguity, which isn't going help you.

I would also be careful how I handled UPT student time. It's a sticky point. If you are going to count it on your resume as flying time, you better know what is legit and what isn't.

[ViperDriver77]

I would also be careful how I handled UPT student time. It's a sticky point. If you are going to count it on your resume as flying time, you better know what is legit and what isn't.

Why wouldn't UPT student time be considered legit? If I have my complex and high-performance endorsements I should be able to log all of the time that I'm flying the T-6. Hell, according to the FAA, I can log all of the time that I am "sole manipulator of the controls" as PIC...even if there is an IP with me. Remember that the FAA has multiple definitions for logging PIC time...sole manipulator as mentioned above and "acting as PIC" which would be the IP on a dual flight. The T-6 doesn't require a type rating, however, the Tweet is a turbojet which would according to the FAA.

At least that is my understanding. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

*EDITED FOR STUPIDITY!*

[ 11. July 2006, 09:21: Message edited by: aviator77 ]

[Guest proudpapa]

I'm not sure about AF, but for Army Helos, back in "the day", we logged engine run time based on the panel clock. As a student, some of us thought the Huey wouldn't start if we didn't hit the clock when we pulled the trigger!

[dontshavemyhead]

it varies by the airline. fdx allows 1.2 factor, swa has 1.3. just gotta check when you're applying

[B-O-double-Z]

Originally posted by aviator77:

Why wouldn't UPT student time be considered legit? If I have my complex and high-performance endorsements I should be able to log all of the time that I'm flying the T-6. Hell, according to the FAA, I can log all of the time that I am "sole manipulator of the controls" as PIC...even if there is an IP with me. Remember that the FAA has multiple definitions for logging PIC time...sole manipulator as mentioned above and "acting as PIC" which would be the IP on a dual flight. The T-6 doesn't require a type rating, however, the Tweet is a turbojet which would according to the FAA.

At least that is my understanding. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

*EDITED FOR STUPIDITY!*

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by aviator77:

The T-6 doesn't require a type rating, however, the Tweet is a turbojet which would according to the FAA.

At least that is my understanding. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

I have never heard of ANYONE getting a type rating for a Tweet. I'd love it if someone would back this up...

[scoobs]

The Tweet doesn't require a type to log solo time. It doesn't matter if its a jet. The reason its good to log mil time in your civi logbook is if you go to the airlines. I guess you could bring both, one for civilian and one for militray.

[ 11. July 2006, 13:08: Message edited by: scoobs ]

[CHQ Pilot]

Speaking with several pilots and an HR person at Southwest, I've been told to log UPT time in the appropriate category (multi/turbine/etc..), but to not log it as PIC even if you were rated. Most airlines do not accept "sole manipulator" as PIC if you did not sign for the aircraft (which I didn't at UPT). The only possible exception would be solo time. It comes down to the time at UPT will overall be a small factor in your flying career. It may not be worth trying to log a few hours of PIC and have it come back and get you years later.

My plan is to take my records printout for my military times and my civillian logbook for all my other. REally can't go wrong with that.

[Guest thefranchise]

so if signing for the aircraft = pic, then all the guys who solo @ whiting can log PIC since we signed for out our own planes. also team rides in a t1 require the student to sign for the jet.

upt time isnt hard to log. if you had an instructor in the aircraft, you log it as non-PIC, dual received. if you were solo you are PIC. heck even solo rides for the FAA pre-private license is logged as PIC!

[ 11. July 2006, 15:27: Message edited by: thefranchise ]

[Guest thefranchise]

also a good digital program to use is log book pro. www.logbookpro.com

[Hacker]

Originally posted by CHQ Pilot:

Most airlines do not accept "sole manipulator" as PIC if you did not sign for the aircraft (which I didn't at UPT). The only possible exception would be solo time.

This is the bottom line...PIC only if you signed for it.

[mule]

Originally posted by dontshavemyhead:

it varies by the airline. fdx allows 1.2 factor, swa has 1.3. just gotta check when you're applying

FedEx allows a .2 per sortie conversion. SWA allows a .3 per sortie conversion. jetBlue allows 1.3 x your time conversion.

As you can see, airlines differ in what they allow. A simple spreadsheet breaking down your time into PIC, SIC, IP, instrument time, & # of sorties is all you need you need to keep up...unless you have civilian time as well as military, then you should keep a civilian logbook as well. Simply keep this spreadsheet up to date and then when you apply, just apply the conversion needed and enter the numbers on the app.

The FAA does allow sole manipulator if you are type rated in the A/C, but most airlines want you to only count time that you were the "boss." So, you have to have signed for it & been responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.

Once you are called for an interview, the flight time summary printout will pass for verification of your flight time. They just want to make sure you meet their mins.

You don't have to do your equivalency test the second you finish UPT. You have to have it done to get your ATP, but unless you plan to go rent a Cessna, you don't need it. That being said, it is very easy to do and since the gouge is right there...it is easier to do it once you are done w/UPT.

All of the above info is based on major airlines. The regionals will probably want more in depth info such as CCX time, etc.

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by B-O-double-Z:

Keeping your military time in a civilian log book seems like a waste of time to me.

I agree. I keep both of them separate. It's just too much trouble when the SARM's are doing the job for me (hopefully). I do, however, save all my 781's. When it's time to apply to an airline, you take your ARM's print out to your interview. Let the airline do what they want with your military time. Don't assume Airline X adds .3 to each sortie because Airline Z does the same thing. Most airlines have online application systems where you type in all your flight times and it calculates everything for you. Of course, when called for an interview, you need to have the hard copies to back that up.

I've got Logbook Pro and it's a nifty program, but definitely not required. I bought it mainly as a backup to compile everything into one record. I've been working on it little by little because I've had to go back to day one of flying out of my hardcopy logbook, which was about 14 years ago in a PA28.

We also have primary and secondary time in the AF. For copilots in an aircraft requiring two pilots, primary and secondary is all SIC time. Aircraft Commanders with the A code can log all their primary and secondary as PIC. If they don't have the A code, then they should be logging it as SIC. The only exceptions I could think of would be if the AC was on a checkride or was flying with an IP. As the AC, I would probably log PIC and Dual Received. UPT is obviously all Dual Received time, unless you were solo and then technically you can log PIC. I think it's safe to say that if you were on a "team sortie" in the T-1, you could log PIC. Unfortunately I never got to take advantage of those because they were prohibited when I went through the T-1 program. We also have "other time" or basically jump seat time, which counts towards your total time. Unfortunately, this really doesn't count for anything as far as the FAA is concerned, unless you're an IP/EP in the jumpseat.

Alot of this is just interpretation of the FAR's and figuring out which type of AF time is equivelant to which type of FAA time.

[Guest Flying_high_CFI]

Take this into account...

Type ratings are only required when the aircraft exceeds the 12,500 MGTOW. You can log PIC time even if it is dual given...check the FAR's.

FAR 61.57 and FAR Part 1:

A pilto may log PIC time when:

1: Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

2: When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.

HOWEVER: However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.

For instance...your are ASEL rated and doing your commerical training. You can both (you and yoru instructor) log PIC. You would also have to log dual given for accuracy.

Now, I have not done the research on the MGTOW for the T-6. However, if it is under 12,500 the T-6, even though it is turbine does not require a type rating. It falls under the ctagory of Airplane, Single Engine Land. If you hold that FAA rating, you most certainly can log it as PIC.

It is the same thing with C-208 Caravans, or any other single engine turboprop out there with a MGTWO of less than 12,500.

Now...my personal take on it.

Log it as dual given towards your total time. I really would not worry about PIC time because you are going to get plenty of it during yoru first ten years as pilot. Plus, if you are a heavy pilot, you have mor ehten you can imagine and the measly 200+ hours that you get during UPT will mean squat.

[CHQ Pilot]

Unless the aircraft has a civilian equivalent, most military aircraft do not have type ratings you can add to your certificate. There is no type rating for a T-37, T-38, C-5, C-17, but there is for T-1 (BE400), KC-135 (B707), KC-10 (DC10), etc. I'm sure most fighters fall into the same situation.

There is a difference in logging PIC under the FAA definition for ratings and what an employer considers PIC for meeting their minimum qualifications. I think that is where most of the confusion lies.

[Guest cbire880]

As far as type-ratings are concerned, any turbo-jet aircraft requires one (provided an equivalent civilian type exists). You do not require one for a Caravan because it is a turbo-prop. The distiction is not in the turbine engine, but in the method of creating propulsion.

[Guest cobaltmetallic]

There are some civilian owned T-37s out there. I've also seen a civilian T-38. Assuming you can't get a type rating for these, I wonder what the FAA requires for someone to legally operate them.

[Guest cobaltmetallic]

There are some civilian owned T-37s out there. I've also seen a civilian T-38. Assuming you can't get a type rating for these, I wonder what the FAA requires for someone to legally operate them.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by cobaltmetallic:

There are some civilian owned T-37s out there. I've also seen a civilian T-38. Assuming you can't get a type rating for these, I wonder what the FAA requires for someone to legally operate them.

It's called an "Experimental Type Rating", or ETR.

[El Guapo]

I log all my primary time in the C-5 as PIC and my secondary as SIC. Not all airlines require you to have the A code in order to log PIC. I have several buddies that have used the above method of logging and have recently gone to airline interviews and were not questioned. It is not shady at all to log PIC without being an AC. I do not add any conversion to my logbook because that is all airline specific. Some ad .2, some .3, some multiply total time by 1.2 some do nothing at all.

[Mike Honcho]

As far as SIC time, does this do anything to help your situation? I've been told that F-15E WSO's with the proper ratings can log SIC time, but I'm curious as to what this can do for you.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by JReyn:

I've been told that F-15E WSO's with the proper ratings can log SIC time, but I'm curious as to what this can do for you.

No. Since the F-15E is not a two-pilot-required aircraft, you cannot log SIC time.

WSOs with a Multiengine rating can log PIC time when they are actually flying the aircraft (e.g. sole manipulator of the controls), but that is it.

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by El Guapo:

I log all my primary time in the C-5 as PIC and my secondary as SIC. Not all airlines require you to have the A code in order to log PIC. I have several buddies that have used the above method of logging and have recently gone to airline interviews and were not questioned. It is not shady at all to log PIC without being an AC. I do not add any conversion to my logbook because that is all airline specific. Some ad .2, some .3, some multiply total time by 1.2 some do nothing at all.

It is important to find out what the particular company you are applying to does with flight time before you make a risky assumption and show up with X amount of hours of PIC that really should have been logged as SIC.

If you are rated as a "copilot" in a military aircraft (the KC-135 for example), you have not been designated to act as PIC of that aircraft. Even with your hands on the controls, you are not PIC. You're SIC. Why do you think everyone cares about getting to the left seat in the regionals? It's not just the money, it's for the PIC turbine time. If you could log PIC in the right seat, what'd be the point (other than a pay raise)? I do not know of any airlines that accept right seat (copilot) primary time as PIC time. Of course if you're a dual seat qualified AC, that's a different story. To keep it safe, go with who's ever got the A code and/or acting as the IP/EP. If you can find an airline that accepts copilot primary time as PIC time, let me know because that'd help a bunch!