UPT washout

[Guest Roy Rogers]

Anyone have any comments on why pilots washout at UPT? What factors play into it and what percentage washout of T-37s and T-38s? What happens to a pilot if he can't hack pilot training etc.

[Bergman]

My class of 28 people had 2 washout in T-37s, one pre-solo the other pre-midphase (the checkride that determines if you can go solo to the MOA).

Both of them washed out due to "basic aircraft control" - they couldn't maintain the proper airspeed in the final turn, would overshoot the runway every approach, and couldn't maintain airspeed or alitutde while enroute to/from the MOA. It was very frustrating to me personally because I spent quite a bit of time chair flying with both of these guys...but it comes to the point where they have to fly the jet alone, and if your brain just doesn't process information fast enough (cross checking a/s, alt, VVI, etc) no amount of preparation will help. With enough time, I believe both of those guys could have flown fine, but UPT isn't very forgiving to slow learners.

[ 16 February 2004, 21:12: Message edited by: Bergman ]

[Toro]

My class of about 40 had three wash out - one in tweets, one in T-1s, and one in T-38s. The T-37 and T-1 washouts were airmanship and aircraft control. The T-38 was inability to fly formation. In three years at Columbus I saw one guy wash out - he had big problems with basic aircraft control and airmanship, but it was formation that finally got him in the end.

If you wash out of pilot training, you can do just about anything else in the Air Force, but if you go kicking and screaming to your commanders review board, you're more apt to got something crappy like sitting at the bottom of a missile tube.

[HerkDerka]

Sounds familiar,

My class at Vance started with 26 and 21 winged. We had one Marine wash out for hooking his 89 ride. We also had one Navy guy fail three exams and another one who wasn't safe to solo. On the Air Force side, we had two med DQ and one wash. I was pretty depressed about the Navy guy who couldn't solo because I worked my ass off trying to keep him up to speed. I don't remember how many hours I spent in the links with him. Just be a team player in your class and help ANYONE who is floundering.

PD

[Guest AirGuardian]

Just to parallel all these,

Our class lost beyond the normal amount of candidates. Started with 30, finished with 22.

Here is the breakdown: Flying Deficiency = 5, Self Initiated Elimination(SIE) = 1, Medical = 2... And we had 1 wash back due to recurrent sickness(hmmm), but he did eventually graduate and of the 5 flying deficiencies, 1 was in T-1's... the rest were during tweets all after solo for some reason? The SIE was right after solo - change of lifestyle if I remember correctly = new wife, new baby, etc....

[Chuck17]

IMO my class could have had further losses in Phase 3, but thankfully we escaped having only lost a few to BAC, SIE, and Med DQ in Phase 2. We lost a few due to medical problems as well, mainly they got sick, were DNIF and fell too far behind to graduate on time so they rolled back to another class.

[FUSEPLUG]

What would cause someone to become medically DQ'd during UPT? Isn't the FC1 the big hurdle to get by, and doesn't that happen before UPT?

[C17Driver]

Most that are medically DQ'd during UPT are due to airsickness. There are a few cases of anxiety problems and such.

[Chuck17]

We actually had a guy who Med DQ'd for allergies. At Laughlin, especially during the winter, it can be extremely warm. Thus there is a significant amount of pollen and allergens in the air year round. Specifically, I had major problems with Mountain Cedar (that and mesquite) and was always stuff, especially during Tweets for some reason. Anyway, this guy in my class actually rolled back, then ended up throwing in the towel... tough break, he was a good dude who was supposed to go to A10s at Battle Creek.

[Guest AirGuardian]

Whairdhugo,

Check your PM!

One of our other classes had an individual who donned the helmet(which started the problem), and then started to taxi in the tweet during the dollar ride, but had to return. Just couldn't settle a major clausterphobia issue he had and so he quit. Very rare... As they said above, most medicals are airsickness and allergies. Most of the time you can work through the airsickness(the chair) part since many do get sick during the warmer months and your body will finally acclimate to it after a few rides - hopefully!

[Guest fosterbeer]

can someone elaborate on the basic aircraft control/airmanship washouts?

Were they simply bad pilots? or could they just not handle the T-37/1/38?

[C17Driver]

In the T-37, many students have problems with the pattern. There's a lot that happens in a short amount of time and some have a problem getting used to the flow. The problem usually comes in as a student approaches their first solo. The IP has to feel comfortable with your flying ability. From what I have seen/heard, most of the students that wash out would probably figure it out if they could get 5 to 10 more rides.. But that isn't the way UPT works.

From my experience, the biggest problems students have is forgetting to trim... TRIM TRIM TRIM!

[Bergman]

Seems that inability to monitor airspeed in the final turn, not clearing for traffic (up to 12 Tweets in the pattern at once!), or being so focused on airspeed/altitude that other things start falling out of your crosscheck (radio calls, correct checklist page, etc). That sort of thing. I know that might sound far-fetched (it did to me when all i had was 70 hours in PA-28s/C-172s), but there is a world of difference between a T-37 at 200 knots and a -172. The IPs hold you to a much higher standard. I distinctly remember a "conversation" I had with an Autstralian IP:

Him: "What airspeed are we supposed to be at?"

Me: "200 KNots"

Him: "What airspeed are we at?"

Me: "202 knots"

Him (literally screaming) "Why aren't you *ucking fixing it then!?!!"

Also keep in mind that 10% is about the going rate for washouts, so the vast majority of people are able to get it figured out and succeed.

Hopefully an IP will respond to this thread, as they are the ones who actually know what they're talking about...

[Toro]

Originally posted by Dan Foster:

can someone elaborate on the basic aircraft control/airmanship washouts? Were they simply bad pilots? or could they just not handle the T-37/1/38?

Speaking as an IP from the T-38 side, I can tell you it that it was a little of both. Only one student was eliminated from 38s while I was at Columbus, but many went to Progress and Elimination Check rides. I flew with some of those, and I flew the PC for the guy who eventually washed out.

There are generally three problems that get guys in serious trouble in 38s. The biggest is general airmanship and situational awareness. This comes from the fact that the T-38 moves much quicker than the 37, and students need to be able to think two steps ahead of the jet. Guys have trouble figuring out where there are in the area, and determing where they'll be after there next maneuver so they can figure out what the following maneuver will be. SA and Area Orientation are the most commonly hookes items on contact and formation check rides.

The next problem is formation maneuvering - close and tactical (6-9K line abreast spacing). The guy in my UPT class as well as the one who washed out at Columbus both had problems with close - just not being able to fly the jet with steady hands when they were in fingertip. Another big problem that was not emphasized enough at UPT when I was an IP and later became an emphasis at IFF was flying tactical. Guys who had wings and were supposed to be learning to fly BFM couldn't do so because they couldn't fly the basic tactical formations that they were supposed to have learned from us.

The final thing is landings. The T-38 has a very fast approach and landing speed and supposedly is the hardest jet in the AF to land. I've seen plenty of guys hook daily and check rides for landings, but I've never seen anybody get washed out. I did, however, see a FAIP go to an FEB for not being able to land no-flaps (after he finished PIT, too).

[Guest Coma@ENJJPT]

We are graduating on friday and of our class of 30 that we started with we had one SIE about two weeks into the 37 program(too stressful, one wash out post solo 37, two wash back in tweets for medical problems, one wash back in tweets for getting too far behind the timeline(hooked to many rides) who later SIEd, one wash back in 38's for being sick too long(STS) and one washout for busting Adv Form check. As has been said before attitude and hard work are the keys if you want to make it in UPT. The dude who washed out was not viewed as an exceptionally poor pilot but he was on procedural and military SMS. Not good things. I think the busted ride was for SA, Airmanship, etc but he really was sunk even before that. I think that there will always be a few that wash out no matter how good their work ethic, motivation and attitude, but most that don't finish the program I think were missing one of the key elements.

Work hard, be motivated, and be teachable and IP's will bust their butts to teach you and help you pass the program. Trust me, I needed that help and I've been basically told it was doing those things that let me pass the program.

[Guest Metalhead]

Toro gave the 38 perspective, here it is for T-1's. Realistically, it's VERY difficult nowadays to wash a dude out. Someone said basic aircraft control and airmanship. Our grade sheets have Situational Awareness instead of airmanship, but all of these are pretty much catch all's. Remember that the AF needs pilots. We had a dude here last year, (who now has wings by the way) who in my opinion and in the opinions of about 10 other IP's should not be a pilot. Did we try to wash him out? Yes. Did we hook him on about 7 of his last 10 daily rides? Yes. Did he graduate? Yes.

Here's the deal. In general the guys making the money (i.e., making the decisions) feel that if a dude gets through 37's / t-6's, they will be able to handle being a pilot because they will never see solo again. Now it may be orbiting in an RJ, but nevertheless they will most likely grajeate and go to their crew airplane. Nothing neccessisarily against the RJ guys, but everybody knows the top guys don't usually make that their first pick. So it comes down to this, If you pass your T-1 transition and Nav check rides, you will graduate. Even if all your IP's don't want you to. And even if you taco your mission check. Sometimes, as stated above, you don't even have to pass those first 2 checks and you can still be what you wanted to be from the first time you saw top gun.

Now we can wash a dude out, but it takes a couple things-- 1. you gotta suck and 2. you need a bad attitude. 3. there can't be anything in your training that would warrant re-instatement. If there is, you will ALWAYS get back in. (why do you think a syl-dev is such a big deal?) syllabus deviation if you don't know. Girls automatically get back in. That's not a sexist comment, its just true.

Scary huh? Yea THOSE guys are out there. Now most probably end up being pretty good safe pilots, after all they will get another year or 2 sitting bitch and learning from an Aircraft Commander. Let's hope so anyway. HERE's my advice: If your a stud and one of your classmates is a shithead, do your best to HELP him and make him better. 'Cause he's gonna be out there with you (and me) someday and you don't want to meet him out on the driveway to Afghanistan going the wrong way.

This is all just my educated opinion, Take it how you will, but fly safe.

:D

[Toro]

Metalhead, you're right on with your reasoning of why many students don't wash out. You wouldn't believe what a logistical nightmare it is to try to get rid of somebody who truly does not belong in the cockpit.

As far as your "Girls automatically get back in" statement, I'll concur with that one, too. If anyone doesn't think it's true, I've got specific stories of when it's happened.

Originally posted by Bergman:

While I agree that 145 at touchdown is pretty quick, aren't the -38s (and most other fighters) usually even faster than that?

Yes they are. It's not the approach speed that makes landing the jet difficult, it's the proximity to the aircraft's stall speed. Because of the 38s small wings, it has a very high stall speed - you are in constant buffet throughout the landing pattern and always very close to stalling. Land a little fast and you'll have to go around or honk on the brakes down the runway. Land a little slow and you'll drop out of the sky and pound onto the concrete.

[Bergman]

"Land a little slow and you'll drop out of the sky and pound onto the concrete" Gee, I bet NONE of us have ever done that! haha I've played "I hate the runway" more than once! In contrast, the -135 is between 20-30% above stall speed in landing configuration, which is a very good thing.

Getting back to topic...

There were defintely a couple of guys in our class that shouldn't have made it through. My only hope now is that a few years as a copilot will bring them up to speed. Fortunately, the weaker guys are usually identified pretty quickly and are paired up with "strong A/Cs" until they get their feces consolidated. The problems start occuring when you have a "weak copilot" with a "weak A/C" (due to scheduling, DNIF, or whatever)...now what? The fact that most squadrons try to schedule around people that shouldn't have made it through UPT in the first place worries me - because, inevitably, that sort of 'safety scheduling' will break down and someone might get hurt. I'm sure the heavy world isn't alone in this - you fighter types see a lot of this?

Lastly - Metalhead...you're right on target. Couldn't agree more. Guess they AF figures that by the time you're in T-1s it's better to get a bad copilot out of the deal rather than spending $1M and getting nothing.

[ 20 February 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Bergman ]

[Guest trossetti]

I'm heading to Columbus VERY soon to begin UPT. I'm confident I can make it through, but would like to know what the average washout rate is. I've yet to get a good answer. I've heard reasons why individuals washout but generally from older guys. Why are people washing out today?

[Guest C17AFPilot]

Dont be concerned with washing out. If you apply yourself and focus on fixing your weaknesses (you'll see what they are), you will be just fine.

[Flare]

I think, if memory serves me correctly, the washout rate is around 69%? Or was it 6.9?

Either way, don't worry about it and do your best. Unless you're really not meant to be there, you'll make it. I'm not saying you'll get your 1st choice, but you will graduate.

[Guest trossetti]

thanx to you both. worrying about it prior to it starting is definitely futile. I was just wondering if there was anything I could do in regards to preventative measures. A mindset maybe? What to avoid....who knows. advice I guess. I have a wife depending on me and we have made sacrifices to get here. I want to be as prepared as possible in order to excel. A lot is riding on my earning those wings.

[Sneedro]

Want a mindset?? Go in there with an open mind. Help out your classmates and have a good attitude towards everything you are doing. If you are willing to put in the effort and learn, the IP's will help you. Dont go in there saying I am going to fly the KC-10 (because EVERYONE wants to fly that sexy b!tch :D ) of maybe the F-22 I guess :rolleyes: . That wont go over well and life could suck for you.

I wouldnt worry about the washout rate. 1 guy washed out of our class. 1 guy washed back to the next class, and another guy almost made it back to the flight we started in he washed back so many times. So whats that tell you?? Well besically that if you want to be there, put in the effort, and give it your all you will make it through.

Good Luck to you

[ 27. February 2006, 21:59: Message edited by: Sneedro ]

[Guest Hydro130]

One more... IP help

Good inputs from some UPT/FTU/MWS instructors out on the line!

Nuts, where's that "patting myself on the back" emoticon/graemlin? I thought he was right next to the 'whipping' one last time I looked... Hmmmm... Suspicious...

And, "2" for Berg's recc post (sts), that should be your starting point to develop UPT SA...

:D Hydro

[ 27. February 2006, 22:58: Message edited by: Hydro130 ]

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by Sneedro:

Dont go in there saying I am going to fly the KC-10 (because EVERYONE wants to fly that sexy b!tch :D )

You don't fly the KC-10. The autopilot does. :D

I would say 10% +/- a few % washout, but it's not consistant.