Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[TheGuardGuy]

I've talked with some DPE buddies, and it's like anything else with the FAA- it depends on the FSDO / examiner's interpretation.... The FARs are lawyer speak and it's hard to cut through all the convoluted subsections. The way I read that reg is 24 calendar months after you take the written it expires. - unless:

- you take it Aug 1 2014 or later (at which point you get to pay for 30 hrs of certified ground instruction and simulator time to qualify for eligibility to take the test) and

-you hold an A code in a military transport aircraft (ie -heavy)

So Champ- if you take it any day of July 2014, it will expire July 31 2016.

I wager you could call 4 different FSDO's and get 4 different answers regarding this reg. I would air on the side of caution. It's expensive to go pay for one of the ATP crash courses, even more so to do a type concurrently- but your going to feel like an asshole shoveling out another chunk of change to get the ground / sim training required just to QUALIFY to take the written after July 31 2014 if you wait and hope the DPE / FSDO has an interpretation that suits your situation. If you can get it done now, get it done now.

* for non AC guys make sure you read about the FAA's definition of PIC in the regs- it's pretty liberal. Nowhere near what the airlines consider PIC. You may have 750 or more hours and think you don't have the PIC (which if you're not an AC, you don't according to Big blue) but you may meet the requirements of the FAA.

Edited January 4, 2014 by TheGuardGuy

[TheGuardGuy]

To clarify-

Section B addresses ATP Multi Engine and ATP with a type rating.

Section C is everything else ATP - ie ATP helicopter, ATP Single Engine ...

99% of us (guys wanting airline gigs) fall under part B's restrictions.

[ColoradoAviator]

Does anybody have any experience with either of the ALLATPS locations in the DFW area (ADS/GKY)? How about US Aviation Academy in Denton (DTO)?

My written is complete and I'm looking to take my checkride this Spring. The ATP programs at both Altus (AXS) and Sheppard (SPS) are a little too new and unproven/gouge-less for my taste - and I can't get ahold of the guy in Boston. I'm hoping to avoid duece123's experience with a non-military-friendly DPE and I don't think that the Higher Power ATP/type combo is right for me at the moment.

[C-21.Pilot]

Why are you dealing with the FSDO for the ATP? Do you not have a designated examiner in your area?

After completion of the ATP, I had the endorsement. When i went to the FSDO here in Tampa, he asked for me to bring a copy of my paperwork, logbook, and application forms. He reviewed my logbooks -- I thought this was/is normal practice…?

YMMV?

Does anybody have any experience with either of the ALLATPS locations in the DFW area (ADS/GKY)? How about US Aviation Academy in Denton (DTO)?

My written is complete and I'm looking to take my checkride this Spring. The ATP programs at both Altus (AXS) and Sheppard (SPS) are a little too new and unproven/gouge-less for my taste - and I can't get ahold of the guy in Boston. I'm hoping to avoid duece123's experience with a non-military-friendly DPE and I don't think that the Higher Power ATP/type combo is right for me at the moment.

Try this link: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/75967-atp-practical.html

[Emery]

GuardGuy.... I've read/re-read your post (thanks, BTW).

Maybe it's because it's 0200L and my brain is fried, but I am still not seeing a direct answer.

If I take my ATP written prior to 31 Jul 14, when is the latest I can take the practical, assuming I stay current in the C-130?

61.155

(d) An applicant who successfully completes the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate prior to August 1, 2014, must successfully complete the practical test within 24 months from the month in which the knowledge test was successfully completed. An applicant who passes the knowledge test prior to August 1, 2014, but fails to successfully complete the practical test within 24 months must complete the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 and retake the knowledge test prior to applying for the practical test.

[Jaded]

Does anybody have any experience with either of the ALLATPS locations in the DFW area (ADS/GKY)? How about US Aviation Academy in Denton (DTO)?

My written is complete and I'm looking to take my checkride this Spring. The ATP programs at both Altus (AXS) and Sheppard (SPS) are a little too new and unproven/gouge-less for my taste - and I can't get ahold of the guy in Boston. I'm hoping to avoid duece123's experience with a non-military-friendly DPE and I don't think that the Higher Power ATP/type combo is right for me at the moment.

ColorodoAviator, I just did mine at Arlington last month. Here is the writeup I made over at airlinepilotforums:

Just did the practical at Arlington with All ATP. My examiner was thorough and fair, with a reasonable knowledge portion and a flight right out of the practical test standards. There is a second examiner there that was giving a really ridiculous oral (sts) test, asking questions that nobody that's flown a Seminole twice would be able to answer (what do the springs that hold the gear down look like ) .

The instruction wasn't great. My CFI did not know the ATP profile, so we ended up wasting time doing stuff that wasn't on the check ride. He wasted so much time on the ground prior to the flight (6 hours ) that our second flight was at night. Their experienced instructors appear to leave as soon as they get hired somewhere else. Maybe I'm just used to a different quality of instruction from the military. The ground school was non existent, and you're forced to memorize their Seminole supplement completely on your own.

Ultimately, the check ride is not difficult, even for a fighter guy. If you're in Dallas, Arlington would work. There's no reason to prioritize it though-I was not impressed.

[RTB]

As others have said, the definition of flying "military Air Transport Operations" is up to your DPE who issues the certificate. From my sample of 2 DPEs, if you are an active military pilot, you're good. Of course that doesn't mean there isn't a DPE out there that will interpret that differently.

Anyone on the fence about this should just get it done.

[SocialD]

After completion of the ATP, I had the endorsement. When i went to the FSDO here in Tampa, he asked for me to bring a copy of my paperwork, logbook, and application forms. He reviewed my logbooks -- I thought this was/is normal practice…?

YMMV?

I think he's saying there is no need to go to a FSDO to get your ATP. A ride with the FAA is free, but most prefer to do their flight with a DPE.

Spend the money and knock it out now. It's not going to get cheaper and it's not going to get any easier.

[Breckey]

Anybody have any experience with a helicopter ATP? The requirements don't seem that bad except for the 100 unaided night hours. I haven't done anything unaided over an odd 0.1 or 2 here and there since UPT.

[stract]

The word "unaided" does not appear in the CFR.

§61.161 Aeronautical experience: Rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating.

(a) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating, must have at least 1,200 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time;

(2) 100 hours of night flight time, of which 15 hours are in helicopters;

(3) 200 hours of flight time in helicopters, which includes at least 75 hours as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof; and

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, of which at least 50 hours are obtained in flight with at least 25 hours in helicopters as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof.

(b) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section, subject to the following:

(1) Training in a flight simulator or a flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents a rotorcraft.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(3) of this section, an applicant may receive credit for not more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator and flight training device.

(3) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the aeronautical experience is accomplished in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=ce5753492082abb56d9271e7586598bc&n=14y2.0.1.1.2&r=PART&ty=HTML#14:2.0.1.1.2.7.1.9

[Breckey]

Sweet. That may have changed recently because all of the ATP school sites that I found on google had the unaided requirement listed.

Another question: does "Sim Inst" time count towards the "75 hours of instrument flight time in actual or simulated IMC?" Legitimately I only have a little over two hours of actual IMC in a helo and that was on a X/C flight. The icing levels here are such that whenever we have good instrument IMC weather, we'd ice up into a brick in about 5 minutes and VRD use are not my idea of a DLO.

[stract]

time logged in the actual aircraft as "sim inst" should count. You could also use instrument time logged in a simulator, but only up to 25 hrs worth, per the CFR above.

ALWAYS go to the source for these things. Example: the FAA's definition of PIC time is NOT just Primary vs Secondary time in the USAF. All your Primary time (sole manipulator of the controls), plus all your Secondary time logged when you were the A code, and all your instructor time (A code when you're instructing) count toward the FAA definition of PIC time, if your aircraft requires two pilots to fly (the 60 does, not sure about the Huey).

Edited January 5, 2014 by stract

[BADFNZ]

So it looks like I need to knock out the written before 1 Aug then take the practical no less than 2 years later.

Do ATPs have any currency requirements? Do I need to do something annually to stay current, like the CFI?

[RTB]

Do ATPs have any currency requirements? Do I need to do something annually to stay current, like the CFI?

No.

[pintail21]

Is there any word on how competitive you would be on the commercial side with a restricted ATP?

[HossHarris]

More competitive than without it ....

[TheGuardGuy]

Not a requirement for most regionals (though the written is) we've had some folks get picked up recently without it. Gotta have it for a major.

[nrodgsxr]

Another vote for sheppardair on the ATP written prep software. Got a 96% following the directions.

[HuskyPilot]

I'm in the process of doing my ATP in the next few weeks. Can anyone give any updates on mil friendly ATP courses in the Texas area? I'm not opposed to a type-rating program, but I'm not exactly seeking it out right now due to the SWA perception as mentioned in previous posts. I plan on doing the written through Sheppard Air and taking the actual exam here at DLF. Also, I've heard good things on the guy up in Boston, any updates there as well?

[pittsdriver]

The guy in Boston is still doing them and well worth the trip up there to get it done. If you need the info PM me.

[jazzdude]

ATP doesn't have currency requirements (61.151.169) like Flight Instructor (61.197)- you just need to be current as a PIC to act as PIC. Of course, you'll have to meet any part 121/135 requirements if participating in those operations, but if you are you probably aren't worried ATP currency.

[bucky60k]

ColorodoAviator, I just did mine at Arlington last month. Here is the writeup I made over at airlinepilotforums:

Just did the practical at Arlington with All ATP. My examiner was thorough and fair, with a reasonable knowledge portion and a flight right out of the practical test standards. There is a second examiner there that was giving a really ridiculous oral (sts) test, asking questions that nobody that's flown a Seminole twice would be able to answer (what do the springs that hold the gear down look like ) .

The instruction wasn't great. My CFI did not know the ATP profile, so we ended up wasting time doing stuff that wasn't on the check ride. He wasted so much time on the ground prior to the flight (6 hours ) that our second flight was at night. Their experienced instructors appear to leave as soon as they get hired somewhere else. Maybe I'm just used to a different quality of instruction from the military. The ground school was non existent, and you're forced to memorize their Seminole supplement completely on your own.

Ultimately, the check ride is not difficult, even for a fighter guy. If you're in Dallas, Arlington would work. There's no reason to prioritize it though-I was not impressed.

I did my ATP last month at Arlington. I had a different experience. My CFI was pretty competent and had good gouge on the ride as well as the two DPEs they use at the school. I agree though if you are expecting UPT like brief, flight, and debrief you will feel that you were cut short. However, I always felt that if I was deficient in an area I could always request more time in that POS Frasca trainer or more ground schooling. The expectations are so low that anyone with a military background should be able to pass no problem. I flew with DPE with the in-depth ground eval. He was a nice guy and he did ask some in depth knowledge but if you go in with the mindset that he just wants to talk/teach you something its nothing to stress over.

[Dead Last]

I'm in the process of doing my ATP in the next few weeks. Can anyone give any updates on mil friendly ATP courses in the Texas area? I'm not opposed to a type-rating program, but I'm not exactly seeking it out right now due to the SWA perception as mentioned in previous posts. I plan on doing the written through Sheppard Air and taking the actual exam here at DLF. Also, I've heard good things on the guy up in Boston, any updates there as well?

I'm too lazy to read back to see the references of SWA, but I did my ATP at Higher Power in September and got a B737 type with it all being in the sim. There is something about taking a check in the sim, they have a much better MC rate than an airplane... Or that was my luck in the 130. All that being said, the GI Bill paid for everything and I have an interview with SWA in a week. Just my $.02. Cheers

[BUSTED]

Can anyone clarify whether there are minimum requirements other than total hours (Night? Instrument?) for the restricted ATP? From reading the reg, it looks like 750 hours is the only requirement for military pilots.

[TheGuardGuy]

Can anyone clarify whether there are minimum requirements other than total hours (Night? Instrument?) for the restricted ATP? From reading the reg, it looks like 750 hours is the only requirement for military pilots.

Gotta read harder-er.

§61.160 Aeronautical experience—airplane category restricted privileges.

(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot if the pilot presents:

(1) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.

(more FAA words)

(e) A person who applies for an airline transport pilot certificate under the total flight times listed in paragraphs (a), (b), and © of this section must otherwise meet the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159, except that the person may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with 200 hours of cross-country flight time.

......

§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), ©, and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. A maximum of 25 hours of training in a full flight simulator representing the class of airplane for the rating sought may be credited toward the flight time requirement of this paragraph if the training was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. A flight training device or aviation training device may not be used to satisfy this requirement.

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

(6) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or §61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experience was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.

(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.

© A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;

(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing” to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40906, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61-109, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 61-124, 74 FR 42561, Aug. 21, 2009; Amdt. 61-130, 78 FR 42375, July 15, 2013; Admt. 61-130A, 78 FR 44874, July 25, 2013; Amdt. 61-130B, 78 FR 77573, Dec. 24, 2013]

Edited January 10, 2014 by TheGuardGuy