Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[ASUPilot]

All military flight time counts as cross country flight time. I've had two different FSDOs (Lincoln, NE & Scottsdale, AZ) tell me this.

[xaarman]

True statement.

Cross-country time means--

(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under § 61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

© That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.1

Edited January 10, 2014 by xaarman

[Wolf424]

Negative, and there's nothing stopping you from getting your ATP at 750 hours if you graduated from UPT; the 750 hours allows you to include civilian time per FAR 61.160.

Ok, I'll ask the stupid question...

If I understand correctly, the 750hr requirement for military starts after the regs change this summer. If I take the written 1 Aug, will I be grandfathered into the 1500hr requirement since I didn't do the newly required sim/ground school that was supposed to be done in order to take the written?

BTW, thanks guys for all the good info.

[jazzdude]

You can't take the written on Aug 1 without the CRM class. The prereq's for the practical are the experience and the written. Right now there is no real prereq for the written (at least none that would be a factor for mil aviators). So if you take your written on July 31, it's good for 2 years, and you can take advantage of the restricted ATP option without taking the crm class. Wait until Aug 1, and you have to take the class prior to signing up to take the written. Its the same test, but they are adding a prereq to taking the test.

tl;dr- take the written before 31 Jul, then take the practical within 2years of your written to avoid the crm class

[Royal]

Ok, I'll ask the stupid question...

If I understand correctly, the 750hr requirement for military starts after the regs change this summer. If I take the written 1 Aug, will I be grandfathered into the 1500hr requirement since I didn't do the newly required sim/ground school that was supposed to be done in order to take the written?

BTW, thanks guys for all the good info.

Negative, the 750 hour ATP rule for military members is in effect currently for the PRACTICAL test (checkride). Like jazzdude said, the thing that changes in August is the requirement for the written NOT the practical. So, take the written now, while there is no prerequisite.

[bbj77]

Piggybacking on HuskyPilot's question...Has anyone in Texas used All ATPs at David Wayne Hooks? I don't think I will have the leave days or time off for Higher Power.

[kapilot]

It would be nice to know these difficult examiners by name. Remember YOU can pick your examiner. YOU are hiring this guy to that has been appointed by the FAA. You should never let any flight school or instructor tell you who you are going to check with. If you're not comfortable with the examiner you should make that known. You are paying way to much money to fly with someone who doesn't have your best interest at heart. Ideally you need to research before hand who will be your check pilot, and set it up before going to any of these ATP schools. If the guy you want isn't available move the date to when he is. Don't waste your time and money on anything less.

There is a check guy at kgky and kads that all atps is using right now that people are having problems with. I'll see if I can get their names.

[HercDude]

It would be nice to know these difficult examiners by name. Remember YOU can pick your examiner. YOU are hiring this guy to that has been appointed by the FAA. You should never let any flight school or instructor tell you who you are going to check with. If you're not comfortable with the examiner you should make that known. You are paying way to much money to fly with someone who doesn't have your best interest at heart. Ideally you need to research before hand who will be your check pilot, and set it up before going to any of these ATP schools. If the guy you want isn't available move the date to when he is. Don't waste your time and money on anything less.

Isn't he supposed to have the interests of the FAA and the American taxpayer at heart? I don't want to fly with a complete ass either, but it would worry me if every FAA examiner went around with the intent to pass everyone because they were looking out for the future careers of the pilots they check vs. the people whose lives will be in their hands.

[Champ Kind]

Pass "everyone" or highly qualified mil guys with years of worldwide experience executing complex missions?

[RTB]

In case anyone is curious, you may have to wait a while for your permanent certificate these days. Two of us took our checkrides on 29 Sep 13. The other dude got his certificate 13 Dec (75 days) while it took just under 4 months for me (111 days).

Difference is his was completely processed online in IACRA while mine needed a letter sent to the FAA due to the DPE forgetting to input that he'd verified my multi engine time. Granted, there was a 2 week government shutdown in the middle of that but still a long wait.

Edit: spelling

Edited January 18, 2014 by RTB

[Jaded]

A mil restricted ATP requires a paper IACRA, just FYI. It required that we look in various FAA circulars to figure out why the electronic version wouldn't accept the input.

[Royal]

If you're getting a restricted ATP, the actual restriction is defined in FAR 61.167:

(b) Limitations. A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has not satisfied the age requirement of §61.153(a)(1) and the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 may not:

(1) Act as pilot in command in operations conducted under part 121, §91.1053(a)(2)(i), or §135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or

(2) Serve as second in command in flag or supplemental operations in part 121 of this chapter requiring three or more pilots.

It shouldn't ever really be a factor because you'll meet the hourly requirement before you're flying as PIC in a 121 operation.

Also, like Jaded said, make sure that you fill out a paper 8710 for your checkride; IACRA hasn't caught up to the recent changes made in the FAR, so there isn't a "box" to check for a restricted ATP. Good luck.

[C-21.Pilot]

I was going to use crazy Carl Nuzzo, but that guy is way to disorganized for me to even thinking about doing business with him.

There is a another guy in Memphis at Downtown Aviation - Dr. Morris Ray. His number is on the web. LOTS and LOTS of Navy guys have gone to him, and a bunch of PIT IP's like myself have him booked for the next month or 2. If you care about his pricing:

$295 per hour/dual

$300 examiner fee

$40 hr/ground instruction

He stated that you'll get 1x 2.5 hour sortie flying a BE-76. 1x 1.7-2.0 check ride….the profile is emailed to you. Also, requires about 2 hours of ground instruction.

Total price if you go alone is about $1700, if you have a friend - about $1500.

** He also said that a female KMEM C-17 Guard pilot is also an examiner out there -- her examiner fee is $400.

[Notch]

I'm currently at Dyess which puts me within easy distance of DFW. Is the ATP Flight School (.com) at Arlington "Friendly" or should I shell out the money to travel somewhere else? Seems to vary over time so just wondering what the latest feedback was.

I just went to Arlington this week. The 2 day course was just the right amount of flying to feel somewhat comfortable. The IPs they have there are very young and mostly graduates of their course building time to get their ATP. Don't expect a USAF style briefing before or after the flight. It's much more relaxed and even a bit disorganized (scheduling of aircraft). Overall, the training portion went fine...nothing to write home about however.

The big deal everyone is worried about is the check ride. I had their "usual" evaluator and he was extremely fair. His son is a marine -130 pilot....questions he asked came straight out of the piper seminole training supplement and only a few standard instrument flying questions (what's RAIM). The flight was a mix of 3 small airports under the class B with him giving you "vectors" while actually flying VFR.

The other evaluator is a older gentlemen who used to be a USAF -135 pilot and has been flying for literally 50 years and has 20k + total flying time. The other two guys I went with both checked with him. He takes his time (lunch break after the oral) but is extrememly fair as well. He has a tendency to talk about random topics and both of the other dudes claim he only asked about 4 real questions during the eval. He flies a different profile than my evaluator at an airport just outside the dfw class b but again VFR flying while getting vectors from him.

Most of the flying is under foggles...

I'd recommend that anyone going to fly the seminole get a PDF copy of the POH and download the training supplement off of the all atps student site.

Overall, the only thing painful in the process was seeing the credit card bill. Questions, let me know..

Notch

Edited February 16, 2014 by Notch

[cragspider]

An interesting read from avweb about the new ATP and the proposed costs of the required training. https://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-New-ATPA-Brief-Window-Before-the-Sky-Falls221453-1.html

I was already thinking that I better have my written done before the end of July so I can still get in under the current ATP PTS. After reading this it really puts some things into prospective about getting it now under the restricted type.

[nunya]

Any AF flyer that ever thinks they'll want the ATP oughta test by August. This is more important than your Masters, Lt.

[Butters]

An interesting read from avweb about the new ATP and the proposed costs of the required training. https://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-New-ATPA-Brief-Window-Before-the-Sky-Falls221453-1.html

I was already thinking that I better have my written done before the end of July so I can still get in under the current ATP PTS. After reading this it really puts some things into prospective about getting it now under the restricted type.

When you look at what they are trying to do I am not sure this applies to Mil guys. Yes, there is currently no Mil exemtion, but I think there will be. This was aimed at the off the street hires that knew dick about flying airplanes. The classes they say you need after 1 Aug are ones we have already taken, we have the sim time and more importantly the flight time.

I would still get it now if you can, but I do not think it is the end of the world for Mil guys.

[TheGuardGuy]

Yes, there is currently no Mil exemtion, but I think there will be.

Agreed, but knowing how fast the wheels of bureaucracy turn with the FAA I wouldn't expect it within the next 6-9 years.

[sputnik]

When you look at what they are trying to do I am not sure this applies to Mil guys. Yes, there is currently no Mil exemtion, but I think there will be. This was aimed at the off the street hires that knew dick about flying airplanes. The classes they say you need after 1 Aug are ones we have already taken, we have the sim time and more importantly the flight time.

I would still get it now if you can, but I do not think it is the end of the world for Mil guys.

I wouldn't count on it. The process now isn't that bad, but it's still a pain. And pointless. I'm spending a bunch of money to do some painful training to prove the govt that I can do what I've been paid to do for the last 18 years for the same govt.

As with the mil comp CFI, it ought to be a written and call it good. Though the written....thankfully I know now how many gallons of gas I can carry inside the aircraft while flying as a commercial operator in Alaska. That's pure gold, gunna come in handy in my next career.

If they don't have a mil comp now, why would they later when they've tightened up the training requirements across the board?

And thank God for Sheppard Air.

[Butters]

I wouldn't count on it. The process now isn't that bad, but it's still a pain. And pointless. I'm spending a bunch of money to do some painful training to prove the govt that I can do what I've been paid to do for the last 18 years for the same govt.

As with the mil comp CFI, it ought to be a written and call it good. Though the written....thankfully I know now how many gallons of gas I can carry inside the aircraft while flying as a commercial operator in Alaska. That's pure gold, gunna come in handy in my next career.

If they don't have a mil comp now, why would they later when they've tightened up the training requirements across the board?

And thank God for Sheppard Air.

I meant a mil comp for the training they want you to get before taking the practical. They like the money they get from the practical to much to let that go. The new rules just seem exponentially ridiculous for mil guys.

[sputnik]

Hope you're right. This whole thing.... It makes sense to me that anyone in a front seat of a passenger airliner should have 1500 hours and an ATP. How it went from they need an ATP to the mess described in the article is a bit beyond me.

[jazzdude]

Hope you're right. This whole thing.... It makes sense to me that anyone in a front seat of a passenger airliner should have 1500 hours and an ATP. How it went from they need an ATP to the mess described in the article is a bit beyond me.

That's like saying the only people who should be in the seat in a C-17 are aircraft commanders. That way they can find the right runway and put the gear down.

[Butters]

That way they can find the right runway and put the gear down.

Are you saying we have to do both now?

[sputnik]

That's like saying the only people who should be in the seat in a C-17 are aircraft commanders. That way they can find the right runway and put the gear down.

I don't equate an ATP with being an AC. I think there should be minimum standards to fly 121, and when they were hiring guys with 250 hours and sitting them in the right seat of a passenger jet, that didn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm wrong. And I don't equate 250 instructing in a 172 with the 250 you get in UPT, there's a difference in the category of aircraft flown, if nothing else.

I've had some remarkably clueless, fresh out of UPT/Altus copilots, so maybe you have a point.

[jazzdude]

Yeah, my comparison was a bit of a hyperbole. UPT training is different than doing the CFI gig. Everybody wants to fly on a jet with an experienced crew. Are hours the best way to measure experience? I know most of my time has been sitting at cruise on autopilot-is that really 'good' time with regards to flight experience?

Heck, my first A-code was dropping actual personnel (for the first time) as 2-ship lead with less than 1500 hours combined between myself and the CP (that doesn't include our UPT time). Granted the training I received was probably better than what I would have received from a regional, but the fact still stands that according to the FAA I'm still not 'experienced' enough to hold an (unrestricted) ATP.

Either way, I'll be taken the written in a few weeks, and the practical in a few months as insurance for this round of RIFs