Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[sputnik]

Quantity has a quality all it's own. Hours alone aren't probably the best. But the airlines don't hire the people with the most time. I'm pretty comfortable concluding that 1500 hours of the worst cruise flying still beats 250 out of the diploma mills. How does it stack up to 1500 hours flying single engine single pilot at night flying checks.... Who knows, but I'd still take that guy over a 250 guy.

But your question is what led to the current situation. It was decided everyone has to have an ATP. Fine. Then the ATP requirements were re-defined. The required training (caveat, as I understand it) is a little insane.

[C-21.Pilot]

The required training (caveat, as I understand it) is a little insane.

I don't disagree with you (per se), but you'd have to agree that the families of Colgan 3407 thought the industry minimums were a bit low, as did the FAA - which is what started this whole change.

Being that it will take a standard military guy 2-3 years to be eligible for the ATP, I think the training is adequate. It keeps the SJS kids held back just a little and might evoke some additional learning that might prove useful in years to come. When your wife and kids are on the plane, wouldn't you want the most qualified crew to fly them?

Remember, someone shits, we all wear diapers.

[Butters]

Being that it will take a standard military guy 2-3 years to be eligible for the ATP, I think the training is adequate. It keeps the SJS kids held back just a little and might evoke some additional learning that might prove useful in years to come. When your wife and kids are on the plane, wouldn't you want the most qualified crew to fly them?

Remember, someone shits, we all wear diapers.

Yes, but will they count Military training and sim time as suficient to meet the requirements stated in the new rules.

[C-21.Pilot]

Yes, but will they count Military training and sim time as suficient to meet the requirements stated in the new rules.

Who cares?

UPT is around 270 hours....equates to about 6 months in AMC. 1500 hours can EASILY be flown in 3-5 years for the average line guy.

Personally, I don't think the military kids should worry about getting their ATP until they are at the end of their respective ADSC....then, your discussion is obsolete as everyone would have the minimums. After a 10 yr ADSC, most AMC guys are around 2500-3000....

What is your point again?

Edited February 19, 2014 by C-21.Pilot

[sputnik]

His point is, go read the requirements. Or at least the posted article about the requirements.

You are correct, any military guy will have the 1500 hour requirement met. But then you will have to take those 1500 hours and drop 20k to get your ATP.

Edit to just post from it. Emphasis mine, full article at: https://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-New-ATPA-Brief-Window-Before-the-Sky-Falls221453-1.html

The big deal is the “airline transport pilot certification training program” set out in FAR 61.156. This requirement kicks in on August 1, 2014. It’s staggeringly expensive for a prospective professional pilot and, frustratingly, it’s pretty much the same as a portion of the training a new hire gets at an airline, but now the ATP applicant has to somehow pay for it and pass it before he or she can even take the ATP written. You must complete it successfully and show a graduation certificate from a training provider that has applied for and had its training program approved by the FAA. The training provider must either be an airline operating under Part 135 or 121 or a certified training provider operating under Part 141 or 142. The program must be taught by instructors who hold an ATP and have at least two years of airline experience. I’m curious as to what kind of salary range is going to be necessary to attract and retain instructors with such experience.

As part of the ATP training program, you’ll have to go through at least 30 hours of classroom instruction (a classroom is specified, not on-line training) in aerodynamics, high altitude operations, meteorology, air carrier operations, physiology, communications, checklist philosophy, operational control, minimum equipment list/configuration deviation list, ground operations, turbine engines, transport category aircraft performance, automation, leadership, professional development, crew resource management and—lastly—safety culture.Along with the classroom instruction you’ll have to buy at least six hours in a Level C (full motion) sim that represents a multi-engine turbine airplane with a max takeoff weight of at least 40,000 pounds. One good thing is that the regs allow the Administrator to approve a deviation from a weight requirement for the simulated airplane—which means that a lot of current bizjet simulators could get approval.

You’ll also need another four hours of sim time, but that can be in a lower cost FSTD of Level four or higher.

I’ve been looking at cost estimates for the ATP certification training program ever since the FAA put out the NPRM on this regulation. According to the AOPA, a Level C sim runs at least $8 million. A room or building, with suitable environmentals, has to be built to house it. Techs have to be hired to keep it working. The instructors have to meet the ATP and two year of airline experience requirement.

Two years ago, AOPA estimated that rental rates for such sims will be $1000 per hour, before considering the cost of building the building and hiring staff. I think that a more realistic number, all things considered, is going to be on the order of $2000 per hour for the six hours in the Level C sim. Based on prices for similar courses at the major simulator training centers, a bare minimum of $15,000 for the ATP certification training program is a fair estimate, with reality probably on the order of $20,000.

Edited February 19, 2014 by sputnik

[mcbush]

Personally, I don't think the military kids should worry about getting their ATP until they are at the end of their respective ADSC.

As a young pup co-pilot, this isn't the kind of thing I want to worry about right now, but wouldn't you agree that I'd be stupid not to take the written this year and knock out the practical within the next two? The opportunity cost of missing out is insane.

[Butters]

Who cares?

UPT is around 270 hours....equates to about 6 months in AMC. 1500 hours can EASILY be flown in 3-5 years for the average line guy.

Personally, I don't think the military kids should worry about getting their ATP until they are at the end of their respective ADSC....then, your discussion is obsolete as everyone would have the minimums. After a 10 yr ADSC, most AMC guys are around 2500-3000....

What is your point again?

Guess nobody ever told you that military run training programs are not FAA certified. The new ATP rules say the training provider must either be an airline operating under Part 135 or 121 or a certified training provider operating under Part 141 or 142.

My point is our military training should count and the way the new rules are writen it does not.

Sputnik said it with more words.

As a young pup co-pilot, this isn't the kind of thing I want to worry about right now, but wouldn't you agree that I'd be stupid not to take the written this year and knock out the practical within the next two? The opportunity cost of missing out is insane.

Well, you need to worry if they do not change this rule... unless you have 20K laying around. The rules apply to the writen as well as the practical.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Butters

[sputnik]

.... but wouldn't you agree that I'd be stupid not to take the written this year and knock out the practical within the next two?

Yes.

The written isn't terrible, go buy the software, lock yourself in a room for ~20 hours, and take it. You can knock it out over a weekend if you want, or a mission with a lot of cruise time. It's a hell of a lot easier than SOS or diploma mill masters. I don't know if you have to have the mins to take the written. No one asked me anything about flight time, I called and made the appt, when I showed up all they wanted was my drivers license.

Bit more paperwork with the practical.

[Guest]

If I take the written before August, and the practical after August, which hours requirement will apply? I'm on a non-flying assignment and I just checked my hours, plus .3 per sortie for taxi time and I'm at 1483.

[ziploc158]

The caveat to that it's a restricted ATP it limits you to right seat operations in a type aircraft. This was how it was explained to me by Mr D'Angelo, the FSDO out at LRF

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sputnik]

If I take the written before August, and the practical after August, which hours requirement will apply? I'm on a non-flying assignment and I just checked my hours, plus .3 per sortie for taxi time and I'm at 1483.

If you have to, go buy the 17 hours in a Cessna, should be able to do that well under $2k. Still a heck of a lot cheaper than the new plan.

Personally, I kind of think Butters is right, eventually they'll give a mil equivalency for the training. But I'm not a betting man, so I'd do it.

[Homestar]

His point is, go read the requirements. Or at least the posted article about the requirements.

You are correct, any military guy will have the 1500 hour requirement met. But then you will have to take those 1500 hours and drop 20k to get your ATP.

Edit to just post from it. Emphasis mine, full article at: https://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-New-ATPA-Brief-Window-Before-the-Sky-Falls221453-1.html

The big deal is the “airline transport pilot certification training program” set out in FAR 61.156. This requirement kicks in on August 1, 2014. It’s staggeringly expensive for a prospective professional pilot and, frustratingly, it’s pretty much the same as a portion of the training a new hire gets at an airline, but now the ATP applicant has to somehow pay for it and pass it before he or she can even take the ATP written. You must complete it successfully and show a graduation certificate from a training provider that has applied for and had its training program approved by the FAA. The training provider must either be an airline operating under Part 135 or 121 or a certified training provider operating under Part 141 or 142. The program must be taught by instructors who hold an ATP and have at least two years of airline experience. I’m curious as to what kind of salary range is going to be necessary to attract and retain instructors with such experience.

As part of the ATP training program, you’ll have to go through at least 30 hours of classroom instruction (a classroom is specified, not on-line training) in aerodynamics, high altitude operations, meteorology, air carrier operations, physiology, communications, checklist philosophy, operational control, minimum equipment list/configuration deviation list, ground operations, turbine engines, transport category aircraft performance, automation, leadership, professional development, crew resource management and—lastly—safety culture.Along with the classroom instruction you’ll have to buy at least six hours in a Level C (full motion) sim that represents a multi-engine turbine airplane with a max takeoff weight of at least 40,000 pounds. One good thing is that the regs allow the Administrator to approve a deviation from a weight requirement for the simulated airplane—which means that a lot of current bizjet simulators could get approval.

You’ll also need another four hours of sim time, but that can be in a lower cost FSTD of Level four or higher.

I’ve been looking at cost estimates for the ATP certification training program ever since the FAA put out the NPRM on this regulation. According to the AOPA, a Level C sim runs at least $8 million. A room or building, with suitable environmentals, has to be built to house it. Techs have to be hired to keep it working. The instructors have to meet the ATP and two year of airline experience requirement.

Two years ago, AOPA estimated that rental rates for such sims will be $1000 per hour, before considering the cost of building the building and hiring staff. I think that a more realistic number, all things considered, is going to be on the order of $2000 per hour for the six hours in the Level C sim. Based on prices for similar courses at the major simulator training centers, a bare minimum of $15,000 for the ATP certification training program is a fair estimate, with reality probably on the order of $20,000.

That's good stuff. I had missed the part about the simulator requirement. Kind of seems redundant if a person already has 1,500 total hours and 50 hours of multi engine time. It will be interesting to see if regional airlines will be able to afford a training program.

§61.156 Training requirements: Airplane category—multiengine class rating or airplane type rating concurrently with airline transport pilot certificate.

After July 31, 2014, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating must present a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter certifying the applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator.

(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 30 hours of classroom instruction that includes the following:

(1) At least 8 hours of instruction on aerodynamics including high altitude operations;

(2) At least 2 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena and weather detection systems; and

(3) At least 14 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including the following areas:

(i) Physiology;

(ii) Communications;

(iii) Checklist philosophy;

(iv) Operational control;

(v) Minimum equipment list/configuration deviation list;

(vi) Ground operations;

(vii) Turbine engines;

(viii) Transport category aircraft performance;

(ix) Automation, navigation, and flight path warning systems.

(4) At least 6 hours of instruction on leadership, professional development, crew resource management, and safety culture.

(b) FSTD training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 10 hours of training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:

(1) At least 6 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane with a maximum takeoff weight of 40,000 pounds or greater. The training must include the following areas:

(i) Low energy states/stalls;

(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and

(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with gusts.

(2) The remaining FSTD training may be completed in a Level 4 or higher flight simulation training device. The training must include the following areas:

(i) Navigation including flight management systems; and

(ii) Automation including autoflight.

© Deviation authority. The Administrator may issue deviation authority from the weight requirement in paragraph (b)(1) of this section upon a determination that the objectives of the training can be met in an alternative device.

[Doc. No. FAA-2010-0100, 78 FR 42375, July 15, 2013]

[tunes]

If I take the written before August, and the practical after August, which hours requirement will apply? I'm on a non-flying assignment and I just checked my hours, plus .3 per sortie for taxi time and I'm at 1483.

you can't add .3 per sortie to your time for the ATP requirements...thats an airline conversion thing, not FAA

[PDX1998]

<-- ATP failure at Denver All ATPs. Instruction non existent, IPs more concerned with FB on their iPhones than scanning traffic and monitoring a student under the hood with traffic all over going into DEN and class B nearby. Their complacency partially set me up for failure. Busted w/eval on initial T/O since I momentarily removed my hand from the throttle. Evidently that momentary action is unsafe in a light twin ( I took my hand off to help set a wind correction on the flight controls). Airspeed didn't even rise. I take some responsibility for what happened, but if IP knew it was an issue and had actually paid attention like a student is out to kill them, the story might be different. 4k for a good ground eval and 0.5 on a taxi out/back and 4.3 in the seminole with 'instruction' by an IP beforehand. Not what I would expect with 2500 hrs in mil acft. Contemplating a recheck, but seminole time is $490/hr at All ATPs. My money may be better spent elsewhere...

Note, All ATPs pays it's IPs $7.50/hr. Not what I consider professional... It's on their website under employment. If a google search gives a company as the top 3-5 returns, the company pays for that...

Edited February 20, 2014 by PDX1998

[Tank]

I would recommend Accessible Aviation at KGTR where I've received both my ATP and MEI.

Crazy Carl Nuzzo might not be the most organized and you have to push him to stay on schedule but at least I was prepared and passed the ground evals and the flights.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Tank

[sputnik]

<-- ATP failure at Denver All ATPs. Instruction non existent,

Sorry to hear that. Place has a less than good rep, but hadn't heard as bad as your description.

I'm guinea pig at a new place in Den, I'll let you know how it goes. Hopefully better than your experience.

And again, sorry, what a kick in the junk.

[xaarman]

<-- ATP failure at Denver All ATPs.

Seriously. Thanks for being a bro and giving us a heads up.

[HercDude]

I would recommend Accessible Aviation at KGTR where I've received both my ATP and MEI.

Crazy Carl Nuzzo might not be the most organized and you have to push him to stay on schedule but at least I was prepared and passed the ground evals and the flights.

Anyone who has used Accessible Aviation:

True or False? When Hot Carl offers lodging as included in the cost of his program, that is in reference to you staying in his spare bedroom.

[Tank]

True

I've never used his "lodging" though. I figure that after spending thousands on some FAA ratings, I could fork over a couple hundred for a hotel....

[Notch]

<-- ATP failure at Denver All ATPs. Instruction non existent, IPs more concerned with FB on their iPhones than scanning traffic and monitoring a student under the hood with traffic all over going into DEN and class B nearby. Their complacency partially set me up for failure. Busted w/eval on initial T/O since I momentarily removed my hand from the throttle. Evidently that momentary action is unsafe in a light twin ( I took my hand off to help set a wind correction on the flight controls). Airspeed didn't even rise. I take some responsibility for what happened, but if IP knew it was an issue and had actually paid attention like a student is out to kill them, the story might be different. 4k for a good ground eval and 0.5 on a taxi out/back and 4.3 in the seminole with 'instruction' by an IP beforehand. Not what I would expect with 2500 hrs in mil acft. Contemplating a recheck, but seminole time is $490/hr at All ATPs. My money may be better spent elsewhere...

Note, All ATPs pays it's IPs $7.50/hr. Not what I consider professional... It's on their website under employment. If a google search gives a company as the top 3-5 returns, the company pays for that...

Sorry about your experience. That just plain sucks that an evaluator is that small minded. The issue you talk about is just nuts. My "engine failure" on takeoff happened about .69 seconds after brake relase and was a non-event.

Have you heard of any other similar experiences there? Can you bring it up with the FAA?

We heard what they make when we were down in Arlington as well. It was tough to hear that they make about $1250 a month prior to taxes but they are there building time for the regionals. Most of the guys in Dallas were happy about having a job. Just remember that if we weren't part of the USAF, we would all be looking for someone to pay for 1500 hours of multi time. Sure, there are jobs in the industry that pay more but these guys are using the company for its leverage at getting them interviews too...win-win, mostly anyway.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Notch

[JS]

Anyone who has used Accessible Aviation:

True or False? When Hot Carl offers lodging as included in the cost of his program, that is in reference to you staying in his spare bedroom.

He also has another facility that he uses when he has more than one student. A friend did the ATP there recently and stayed at the offsite location. I stayed in his house when I went, and it was not a bad deal. His house is huge - he makes billions from his ATP program (ha ha) and his wife is a very successful financial planner. So you have the entire upstairs to yourself, which is the hallway, two bedrooms I think, and the bathroom. Plus he does breakfast, coffee, and juice for you in the morning. Oh, his "hotel" also has a free managers special after flying, where you can sit with him in his man cave, drink his scotch/bourbon, smoke a cigar with him, and talk about the good old days of fighter piloting around.

Overall, not a bad deal as far as lodging goes. And the price is right.

[Emery]

Everything about Accessible is true above. The pass rate is very high but dont think for a second no one hooks. I was there last month and in my 1.5 weeks trying to get the ATP done i personally witnessed two checkride busts and one written bust that was using his written prep. Overall, its a good deal but just be prepared to take the initiative and dont expect to be spoon fed. Checkpilot is fair and gives most the benefit but due to some jacka$$ telling the faa that he shouldnt have passed a checkride from said checkpilot, he has no choice but to call it like he sees it. He shows you the letter from the faa, so he's not making it up.

Btw, one of the busts was a former Thunderbird #1. Although he hadnt flown in like 6-9 years.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Emery

[C-21.Pilot]

Downtown Aviation -- Memphis. Cannot recommend more.

Flew once on Friday, checked on Saturday. 3.7 total hrs. Walked out of that place with ticket in hand for less than $1500 and that INCLUDES the examiner fee.

I had to chase down crazy Carl Nuzzo to get on his schedule -- screw that. There are MUCH better options out there for military guys.

FWIW - Last I heard, Downtown Aviation is booked all the way thru the end of May with military guys.

[pintail21]

The caveat to that it's a restricted ATP it limits you to right seat operations in a type aircraft. This was how it was explained to me by Mr D'Angelo, the FSDO out at LRF

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is true, BUT once you do hit the minimum amount of hours for a regular ATP your restricted APT magically becomes a full up one.

[Chida]

I did Accessible Aviation. The lodging was in a multi-bedroom apartment in which you shared the kitchen and living room with other students (some are long-term students getting their CFI or whatever). As I had the wife with me, we opted to stay in the VOQ on nearby Columbus AFB. Of course, that's when it was ~$35 per night. Now that the VOQ is ~$55 a room at a local hotel might be better.