Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[HossHarris]

Gents--

I'm running up to crazy Carl's this weekend to knock out the Checkride. Any other gotchas out there (ie keep your hand on the throttles whilst taking off)?

[JS]

The prep rides are actually pretty spot on to what the practical ride looks like. Lots of yanking that engine back on takeoff roll, right after liftoff, and right before intercepting the localizer. Just keep control of the plane after rotation and don't blow through the localizer after he pulls the engine, like I almost did.

The examiner also gave me random holding that I had to do manually because I don't think I was allowed to use the Garmin 1000 for it, nor to I think I would have been able to figure out how to use the 1000 anyway. Carl hadn't prepared me for that, but I was able to get through it after I verbalized the entry method and the examiner corrected me, because I had the course/holding direction reversed in my head. Ha.

During the ground eval, he asked most of the main stuff on the study sheet about the plane - tell me about the engines, how does carb heat work in this plane, fuel capacity and range, etc. So study the handouts that Carl gives you pretty closely.

[Tank]

+1

Everything JS just said. Study and memorize the handouts and you'll do fine during the ground eval. As for the flight, he preps you for exactly what you are going to see during the flight eval. As for the examiner from Columbus, he is very big picture, just don't tie his hands on anything that he briefs before hand and you'll pass.

[Emery]

No more yanking engines back at or just after rotation. I guess a few folks have crashed due to this. This one will be on climbout out of STF. Dont bust an MDA, go thru a course, feather wrong engine, and don't let your landings scare him. Know engine failure "boldface."

[Hank Burley]

Military only needs 750 hours to take the practical.

Google, my friend. Google.

§61.160 Aeronautical experience—airplane category restricted privileges.

(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time

How does restriction get lifted once you reach 1500? Is it as easy as a trip to the local FSDO office?

[Royal]

How does restriction get lifted once you reach 1500? Is it as easy as a trip to the local FSDO office?

Yes.

[sputnik]

Did FTI in Denver, we were their first ATP class. ~$4700, uses United's 737-300 sim, taught by United guys.

Two thoughts:

1. Worth it for me, solid program

2. For not a lot more you can get the ATP and type, really makes the most sense bang for buck. I needed it right now and didn't have the time for the type and SWA, while a great place, isn't one of my top targeted airlines. That said, all I had time for was this, and they were up the road and great working with my schedule.

I day academics then 3 sims, 4 hours each. Then check. Check was legit, but they got us completely ready for it--they are good at what they do. The instruction was really rather impressive, truth be told.

Syllabus was basically a cut down ATP/type syllabus. It worked, but they've already made some changes that will make a pretty good program better.

Kind of spendy, but I got to sleep in my own bed every night. Also, the 16 hours of 737 time felt more useful to me than time in seminole. And if, knock on wood, United calls, I've already flown the sim.

Happy to answer PMs, but I'm not really holding anything back.

[PDX1998]

All ATPs gave me a full refund. I wrote and sent the company's executives an 8 page paper highlighting my training, some shortfalls, safety concerns, some recommendations, and a list of options on how I anticipate moving forward with my training (or lack thereof). I am happy to share it, PM me if interested. Weighing options on completing the ATP, but I need to wait on assignment info before I make any plans.

[brabus]

Anyone have any recommendations for ATP schools in the Pensacola area? I may be heading down there for a TDY in April and considering knocking the practical out. One LIMFAC I have is all my multi time is from the 38, so I need to find a DPE who is willing to count that for the 50 hr multi requirement. Hopefully someone on here knows a place that fits the bill.

[sputnik]

Anyone have any recommendations for ATP schools in the Pensacola area? I may be heading down there for a TDY in April and considering knocking the practical out. One LIMFAC I have is all my multi time is from the 38, so I need to find a DPE who is willing to count that for the 50 hr multi requirement. Hopefully someone on here knows a place that fits the bill.

Now I'm confused, I thought ME was ME. I thought the only issue was taking your checkride in an ME aircraft that wasn't centerline thrust?

[RTB]

Now I'm confused, I thought ME was ME. I thought the only issue was taking your checkride in an ME aircraft that wasn't centerline thrust?

ME is ME...sort of. ME centerline thrust time does not count as ME time for FAA instructor purposes. You can't get an MEI certificate if you've only been an IP in a ME centerline thrust aircraft. So far, it appears that any ME time satisfies the 50 hour requirement for the ATP but it's not clearly spelled out. I've heard from the DPE I flew with that some DPEs don't view ME centerline thrust time as satisfactory for the ATP requirements for the same reason it doesn't satisfy the MEI requirements. HOWEVER...I know of no one with only ME centerline time that didn't get their CL time counted for the ATP hour requirement.

[Champ Kind]

Any words on Cobra Kai in Wichita Falls, TX?

[brabus]

I've heard from the DPE I flew with that some DPEs don't view ME centerline thrust time as satisfactory for the ATP requirements for the same reason it doesn't satisfy the MEI requirements.

That's what I've heard too; definitely don't want to get everything set up with a DPE, only to get there and find out he won't count my CL restricted ME time. I'll just ask them before I even walk in the doors so I don't waste my time.

Google came up with Sky Warrior Inc in Pensacola; anyone have any words about them?

[nunya]

Crazy Carl does a Pensacola ATP class occasionally, if you can get ahold of him. He uses a DPE out of Fairhope or somewhere nearby there.

[HossHarris]

Gents, just finished up with crazy Carl nuzzo at accessible aviation in columbus and wanted to pass along a review for those weighing their options.

To their credit, they did squeeze us in despite the rush and backlog and we >DID< receive the training and experience we needed.

The accommodations were marginally acceptable. I stayed at his house which is standard. I was upstairs in a detached separate area. There is also a few bedrooms in a townhouse on the other side of town (think college living).

The company and organization were atrocious and at times infuriating. Despite a rather large sum of money changing hands, I was never treated as a paying customer, and often treated as a hindrance. The training program was sloppy, disorganized, and never punctual. Maintenance wants drove some training directives (ie "we simulate that in training so we don't wear out that boost pump", "don't actually retract the gear on the stall recovery to save wear on the hydraulic pump","don't turn on the strobes, we don't want to run out of blinker fluid"). They were very concerned that "damn students" would booger up a brand new interior. Training materials and "checklists" were cobbled together and Inconsistent.

Execution was maddening as well. In some cases people that walked talked and flew as CFIs were in actuality just a safety observer since those folks didn't actually posses the hours or ticket to be a CFI. Safety observers/CFIs were often on their phones...airborne, mid brief, mid academics, and mid conversation. Nothing happened on time or as planned.

There were some other folks that had arrived a few days earlier and updated us on the situation and managed our expectations.

With all of that said, however, I >>HIGHLY<< recommend accessible aviation for your ATP.

Happy to answer questions.

[HossHarris]

Yes. Carl's program is Awful. I HIGHLY recommend it

[C-21.Pilot]

Why anyone would pay nearly $3000 for that "experience" is beyond words. This is about the 10th person telling me that AA at KGTR does business this way.

I understand the "need" to get it down, but geez -there are much better options out there folks both in price and in quality of program!

Edited March 3, 2014 by C-21.Pilot

[HercDude]

Can someone who has used the post 9/11 GIB recently to pay for their ATP either give the Reader's Digest version of the process or point me to a document or website that explains the process. And don't say "call the base education center". They asked me what airline ratings were.

[Butters]

Call the Joint Base Education Center

[Mikey Donuts]

Can someone who has used the post 9/11 GIB recently to pay for their ATP either give the Reader's Digest version of the process or point me to a document or website that explains the process. And don't say "call the base education center". They asked me what airline ratings were.

I'm getting my ATP/737 type from Higher Power in April. All of this is applicable to 9/11. I don't have a clue about Montgomery. The process so far has consisted of this:

1. Find a VA approved flight certification course. You're allowed roughly 10.5K per year for flight cert. I've spoken with the VA rep at my base as well as the VA education rep at the main VA education office. According to the base rep, I'll be charged for one month of education benefits. Big VA says they charge one month for every $865 so roughly a year for me.

2. Once you find a course & get a class date go to the VONAPP website: https://www.vabenefits.vba.va.gov/vonapp/default.asp

You'll find a VA form 22-1990 which is a form verifying your eligibility for VA benefits for the course. Submit the form.

3. Get denied TERA

4. Once you receive verification of your eligibility, attend your course. You will likely have to pay for everything up front.

5. Once you receive your cert, submit proof of attendance & graduation to the VA. Haven't gotten this far so I don't know specifics. HPA does all of this paperwork for you.

6. About a month after step 5, you get paid via EFT.

Good luck!

Edited March 3, 2014 by Mikey Donuts

[Champ Kind]

Amusing to hear that Carl's business model hasn't changed. I was enrolled in one of his programs 10 years ago (not ATP) and it was a train wreck. Didn't stay enrolled long enough to <<HIGHLY>> recommend it because I switched to another place in the area, but the comments on organization were just as true then as they are today.

[Hank Burley]

Can someone who has used the post 9/11 GIB recently to pay for their ATP either give the Reader's Digest version of the process or point me to a document or website that explains the process. And don't say "call the base education center". They asked me what airline ratings were.

The school must be part 141 and certified by the VA. I recently had an instance where I went to a flight school that had just gotten it's part 141 certification and was claiming you could use VA education benefits, however they had not filed for certification by the state VA. If the flight school is certified by the VA, they should have all the necessary paperwork you need to submit. The Montgomery G.I. Bill will pay up to 60% of your flight cost. I'm not sure how they figure out the post-9/11 G.I. Bill but I know guys who were going to higher power were charged about 10 months worth of benefits. I opted to transfer my post-9/11 benefits to my wife Who is in grad school because it maximized our benefits much greater than if I had used it at a flight school. So keep that in mind in case you have somebody who could benefit from the post 9/11.

[HercDude]

The school must be part 141 and certified by the VA. I recently had an instance where I went to a flight school that had just gotten it's part 141 certification and was claiming you could use VA education benefits, however they had not filed for certification by the state VA. If the flight school is certified by the VA, they should have all the necessary paperwork you need to submit. The Montgomery G.I. Bill will pay up to 60% of your flight cost. I'm not sure how they figure out the post-9/11 G.I. Bill but I know guys who were going to higher power were charged about 10 months worth of benefits. I opted to transfer my post-9/11 benefits to my wife Who is in grad school because it maximized our benefits much greater than if I had used it at a flight school. So keep that in mind in case you have somebody who could benefit from the post 9/11.

I've spoken with two different FBO operators in the last week (both Part 141) who have confirmed what is quoted here, with the caveat that the 60% does not cover the entirety of training, but specific things like the FAA examiner's fee, and aircraft rental for the check. The instructor's hourly rate and aircraft rental for the prep flights is NOT covered by the Montgomery GI Bill. Both of them also said that the Post-9/11 WILL NOT COVER ANY TRAINING COSTS AT ALL, unless the course includes certain minimum ground and flight instruction, as is the case with Higher Power and other companies that offer a type rating.

Given the volume of guys here talking about Accessible Aviation, Arizona Flight Training, etc. I was hoping some one can either confirm this, or tell me definitively that the Post 9/11 GI Bill will cover all or a portion of the costs incurred getting an ATP, and that these guys who run FBOs don't know what they are talking about.

The VA's website doesn't provide enough specifics anywhere I could find to answer this question to my satisfaction:

https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/flight_training.asp

[C-21.Pilot]

Guys,

Here is my $.02.....

1. Do NOT use the GI Bill to get your ATP -- unless you ABSOLUTELY have to. Try to save it for the family if you can eat the 4 yr ADSC.

2. For the entire training program, examiner fee, etc -- if you are quoted ANYTHING over $1800, then you are getting a raw deal. (see my previous post about using the guy in Memphis where I did the entire program for under $1500.). Throw in plane tickets and a hotel you are most likely still going to be under any program cost out there. see #4.

3. In fact, the way the GI Bill works is you fork over the money first, then you get reimbursed.

4. if you use the GI Bill, you MUST have a Class I flying physical (ranges around $125). If you don't use the VA, then your current 1042 will work.

5. The post 9-11 GI Bill will cover 100% of an ATP as long as it is part 141 certified (structured). if you go over the cap, then you pay that portion out of pocket.

https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/flight_training.asp

Once you read that, then try this:

https://inquiry.vba.va.gov/weamspub/buildSearchInstitutionCriteria.do;jsessionid=qtMbSxQFpzyL7GpnQrtnNGv6G9CGQQvb2YqM9Cvw3vB2pv2lXhfJ!-1531379871

** Make sure you click the middle drop down menu to "Flight" -- then go from there.

For example, this pulled up for Downtown Aviation in Memphis:

Address: Institution Name: DOWNTOWN AVIATION Abbreviated Name: DA Street: 2787 North Second Street City: Memphis State: TN Zip Code: 38127 Country: USA Phone: (901)353-9151 Web Address: List of Officials: Official Name Official Title Malcolm Jay King Certifying Official for Programs Mark Emmert Certifying Official for Programs Morris Ray Certifying Official for Programs

This here is for Higher Power:

Institution Name: HIGHER POWER AVIATION INC FLT Abbreviated Name: Street: 4001 AIRPORT FREEWAY STE 200 City: BEDFORD State: TX Zip Code: 76021 Country: USA Phone: (817)445-7000 Web Address: List of Officials: Official Name Official Title CAROLYN M ARMSTRONG Certifying Official for Programs JOE S POORE Certifying Official for Programs MARK A STERNS Certifying Official for Programs WAYNE SPARKS Certifying Official for Programs

[sputnik]

I can't argue with C-21. I spent a lot of money on my ATP, very happy with what I did as it completely met my needs/constraints.

That said, APT is a box to check. So far as I can tell, it's an idiotic box to check. Therefore doing it with the least amount of money spent is utterly and completely the smartest choice.

Find the cheapest place that you know you'll pass.