Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[JS]

Anybody taken the ATP written at an AF education center yet? Is there any harm in showing up and taking it cold since its free? Does your grade show up somewhere the airlines can see it or is it just pass/fail like ACSC, etc?

That sucks that education centers are doing away with it. I took two at TInker when I was there and it saved me some money.

To answer your question - do not take the ATP written cold. You have a 0 percent chance of passing it and will waste everyone's time. This is not a test of your overall aviation knowledge - it is a test full of extreme queep and weird shit that you simply will not know unless you have specifically studied for it.

Also, if you fail, I seem to remember reading that an instructor had to sign you off for additional training or something. Plus, you never know when you are going to get an interview question asking you if you have ever failed a written or practical FAA test. I would rather not have it out there. Study with Sheppard Air, then take the test.

[HuggyU2]

FAA written tests are free at Kandahar.

[itsokimapilot]

Anybody taken the ATP written at an AF education center yet? Is there any harm in showing up and taking it cold since its free? Does your grade show up somewhere the airlines can see it or is it just pass/fail like ACSC, etc?

Do not take an FAA test cold. This is your future in civilian aviation. If you fail an FAA exam you don't want to have to answer that question in an interview or application.

[Whitman]

Yes...the written is good for 24 months, so you'll have time to take the check ride. But don't putz around either...the standards for the check ride may change too.

I don't believe the 24 month limitation applies to military. From the ATP Practical Test Standards:

NOTE: The 24-month limitation does not apply if the applicant:

7. is employed as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test, and has accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought.

[Cap-10]

FedEx says you only need the FE written if you are hired for a class that will have the B-727 in your drop....it's just like SWA saying you don't need the type rating, but everyone I know gets it anyway to better their chances.

Having said that, the B-727 guys I know at FedEx said they are losing 1 B-727 line per month and that they should be gone middle of 2014.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[jango220]

FAA Proposed Rule Change. From what I can track down, the approval is still being delayed, but looks like the writing is on the wall. They floated the idea of a "restricted" ATP for military fliers with at least 750 or 1000 hours, but I'd rather spend a couple hundred now on gouge and the test instead of hoping that we don't get screwed later. The rule change equates to 4 days of class and 4 days in the sim before you can even take the written, easily a few grand.

§ 61.154 ATP Certification training program: Airplane category—multiengine class rating or aircraft type rating.

After July 31, 2013, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an aircraft type rating must present a certificate of completion from an authorized training provider certifying the applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.

(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 24 hours of classroom instruction that includes the following:

(1) At least 5 hours of instruction on high altitude operations, including aerodynamics and physiology;

(2) At least 3 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena and weather radar; and (3) At least 12 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including turbine engines, transport category aircraft performance, automation, communications, checklist philosophy, and operational control.

(b) FSTD Training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 16 hours of training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:

(1) At least 8 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator on

(i) Low energy states/stalls;

(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and

(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with gusts; and

(2) At least 8 hours of training in a Level 4 or higher flight training device or a full flight simulator on

(i) Aircraft performance;

(ii) Navigation;

(iii) Automation; and

(iv) Crew resource management.

[matmacwc]

Anyone done Arizona Flight Training Center? Heard 100% pass rate (good). $3k (not as good, but possibly worth it).

Or All ATPs at Willie? I also need to get rid of my centerline thrust restriction.

[Cap-10]

Or All ATPs at Willie? I also need to get rid of my centerline thrust restriction.

You can have the centerline restriction removed when you take the ATP check ride...it only adds one additional maneuver (the VMCse demo) and it takes < 1 min in flight.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[SocialD]

All the stuff listed will be covered in any airline training and most likely will suffice. Most airlines don't actually require you to have your ATP, just the mins and the written. If you're going to try the SWA route, then I'm sure higher power will adjust their program if needed. Undoubtedly there will be a mil exception.

Edited February 3, 2013 by SocialD

[HooverPilot]

Airline training would cover all of those requirements, but you have to get to that training. Most airlines use web based apps now and they won't accept your app/profile without an ATP, Class 1 medical, etc. being an ATP holder will soon be a requirement to be an airline copilot, so it will be one of the screening tools of the airlines.

[SocialD]

Airline training would cover all of those requirements, but you have to get to that training. Most airlines use web based apps now and they won't accept your app/profile without an ATP, Class 1 medical, etc.

True, if the airline requires it. Delta and United do not require it and will accept your app without an ATP. US Airways doesn't require it and the last time American hired they didn't require it either. One of our guys asked their recruiter if he should just go get it and the captain looked at him like he was an idiot. He said we give it to you in training (STS), so unless you have a couple grand burning a hole in your pocket, I wouldn't waste your money. He still got interviewed and hired. But yes, I know FedEx/SWA require it and it never hurts to check the container, but it's not necessarily a requirement.

being an ATP holder will soon be a requirement to be an airline copilot, so it will be one of the screening tools of the airlines.

You will only need to have an ATP to fly pax. So unless they are proposing a rule that says you have to have an ATP to be hired, you should be ok. Most airlines will give you your ATP as part of your check ride in training (that's how I got mine). But all the ones I have seen recently just say you need to have ATP mins.

I'm only pointing this out because if they don't give the mil an exception, this could cost a lot of $$$$. Being military, I can't see that not having your ATP will hurt you too much, especially if they truly need as many pilots as predicted. Now if you really want SWA/FedEx then you're pretty much screwed into paying the money.

[163 FS]

Anyone done Arizona Flight Training Center? Heard 100% pass rate (good). $3k (not as good, but possibly worth it).

Just did my ATP with these guys. I highly recommend this program. 100% pass rate for MIL guys is as good as it gets. Anyone in Arizona or surrounding states should go here. $2800 is well worth the cost. I'd probably pay more and still be happy. Examiner fee is included.

[Flare]

Add me to the list of the folks who wholeheartedly recommend the guy up in Boston. I flew in from Phoenix. Totally worth it.

[HookEmAll]

To those who went with Mr Trask up in Maine, when I did my Checkride and it my license he did not sign and endorse my log book. Apparently, not having that done in spite of having your license is a big deal to some airlines.... Sooo make your evaluator do that (which apparently they are required to do and i am probably the only person who didnt know) and also having 1 hour time in type and a Checkride in that plane might get you some funny questions to have a quick witted or intelligent response to.

[BFM this]

To those who went with Mr Trask up in Maine, when I did my Checkride and it my license he did not sign and endorse my log book. Apparently, not having that done in spite of having your license is a big deal to some airlines.... Sooo make your evaluator do that (which apparently they are required to do and i am probably the only person who didnt know) and also having 1 hour time in type and a Checkride in that plane might get you some funny questions to have a quick witted or intelligent response to.

14 checkrides (including several 141 stage checks) I have never had a DPE endorse my logbook, with the exception of documenting the stage checks, not license or certificate issuance. Handing me a temporary was the routine.

Or, more to the point: WTF are you talking about?

[SocialD]

14 checkrides (including several 141 stage checks) I have never had a DPE endorse my logbook, with the exception of documenting the stage checks, not license or certificate issuance. Handing me a temporary was the routine.

2! I received all the way through my ATP/CFI/CFII, prior to joinging the military. In all those check rides, I've never had an examiner endorse my logbook.

[amcflyboy]

14 checkrides (including several 141 stage checks) I have never had a DPE endorse my logbook, with the exception of documenting the stage checks, not license or certificate issuance. Handing me a temporary was the routine.

Or, more to the point: WTF are you talking about?

I know what he's talking about. When I went to Airline Transport Professionals in Trenton, the DPE kinda busted my CFI's balls for not endorsing my logbook to reflect legitimate training had transpired. It's the paper trail, that's all, and a CYA issue. Now thinking about it, I didn't actually present my logbook, but an Excel spreadsheet showing ALL of my flighttime from the last 10 years (civilian and military, as well as my AFORMS rip), and I'm surprised the interviewers at Jetblue didn't ask me about it.

[SocialD]

I know what he's talking about. When I went to Airline Transport Professionals in Trenton, the DPE kinda busted my CFI's balls for not endorsing my logbook to reflect legitimate training had transpired. It's the paper trail, that's all, and a CYA issue..

A CFI is not required to endorse your logbook, nor does the ATP ride require any kind of endorsement. Your instructor WAS covering HIS ass.

and I'm surprised the interviewers at Jetblue didn't ask me about it.

They didn't check because its really a non-issue. My interview, they didn't even look at my logbooks. I just signed a paper saying I met ATP mins or had an ATP.

Edited March 31, 2013 by SocialD

[BolterKing]

14 checkrides (including several 141 stage checks) I have never had a DPE endorse my logbook, with the exception of documenting the stage checks, not license or certificate issuance. Handing me a temporary was the routine. Or, more to the point: WTF are you talking about?

My ATP DPE endorsed my logbook after the check ride. Same story as you, PVT through CFII/MEI I'd never seen that done. Did my CFI with the local FSDO and they never said anything either. Last check ride I'd taken prior to my ATP was back around 1999 though so it may have been a recent thing they just started doing. He hadn't filled out my ATP temp certificate yet, and it wasn't my best performance so I wasn't about to start asking him WTF he was doing.

For those on the fence about shelling out the cash for an ATP... you're competeing for a multi million dollar job. WTF is wrong with you?! Competition is fierce, and even with the coming hiring spree/wave/hiccup/whatever there aren't enough chairs for everyone when the music stops. If there is a box on the app to check, you want it checked. I'm not saying drop $5K to go out and get a float plane rating just so you can fill that square on the FedEx app.... but it's there for a reason. They value diversity of experience, as well as quality. Go ask/beg for that Stan/Eval/NATOPS qual. If you're a few years out look at the applications, see specific line items are on there (Safety Officer, SEFE, DO, etc) and start getting those qualifications. Each one of those you click will put you that much closer to the top.

That said there are several companies such as FedEx and SWA, that have a question section on the first page of the application. If you can't click "yes" to every question you can't even get into the application and start a profile. One of those questions is "do you have an ATP?"

You can do it in a weekend if you try. If you're really strapped for cash, MGIB and 9/11GIB will cover a good portion of it (varies between the two options).

Edited April 5, 2013 by BolterKing

[TheGuardGuy]

Military mins for 'restricted' ATP 750 total time. Thoughts?

https://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-10/pilot-qualifications-raised-by-u-s-faa-to-improve-safety.html

[Rusty Pipes]

Military mins for 'restricted' ATP 750 total time. Thoughts?

https://mobile.bloomb...ove-safety.html

I think that there is going to be quite the demand for military trained pilots. I wonder if all the current co-pilots will be grandfathered in? I'm guessing they would have to be. Anyone see an effective date for this?

[nunya]

61.156 doesn't exist in the federal register yet. It's part of the rule I linked above. Because I'm feeling generous:

§61.156 Training Requirements: Airplane Category – Multiengine Class Rating or Airplane Type Rating Concurrently with Airline Transport Pilot Certificate

After July 31, 2014, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating must present a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter certifying the applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator.

(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 30 hours of classroom instruction that includes the following:

(1) At least 8 hours of instruction on aerodynamics including high altitude operations;

(2) At least 2 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena and weather detection systems; and

(3) At least 14 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including the following areas:

(i) physiology;

(ii) communications;

(iii) checklist philosophy;

(iv) operational control;

(v) minimum equipment list/configuration deviation list;

(vi) ground operations;

(vii) turbine engines;

(viii) transport category aircraft performance;

(ix) automation, navigation, and flight path warning systems.

(4) At least 6 hours of instruction on leadership, professional development, crew resource management, and safety culture.

(b) FSTD training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 10 hours of training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:

(1) At least 6 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator qualified under part 60 of this chapter that represents a multiengine turbine airplane with a maximum takeoff weight of 40,000 pounds or greater. The training must include the following areas:

(i) Low energy states/stalls;

(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and

(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with gusts.

(2) The remaining FSTD training may be completed in a Level 4 or higher flight simulation training device. The training must include the following areas:

(i) Navigation including flight management systems; and

(ii) Automation including autoflight.

Sounds painful, huh? So get your written done before that's law. And there's no mil comp caveat, either.

Rather, a military pilot will still be required to complete the ATP certification training program in new §61.156, pass the ATP knowledge test, and pass the ATP practical test or air carrier evaluation that results in the issuance of an ATP certificate

Edited July 11, 2013 by nunya

[matmacwc]

So dumb it down for me, ATP written in the next few weeks makes life easy? I'm being serious, I want to get this done, and if true, I sign up tomorrow.

Edited July 11, 2013 by matmacwc

[Jaded]

Referencing the above, looks like my info was bad. That said, if you do the ATP written it's good for two years. Do it within the next year to save a lot of ass pain.

[slc]

Referencing the above, looks like my info was bad. That said, if you do the ATP written it's good for two years. Do it within the next year to save a lot of ass pain.

Reference the FAR's, the ATP written is good indefinitely for military as long as you are/were an active flyer with a unit. Cheers