Masters information (MBA/GRE)

[jango220]

I'm currently almost a full semester into Penn State's Master of Systems Engineering program (https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/MasterInSys...gineering.shtml). Did my undergrad in AAE and was looking around for a technical program to keep the possibility of TPS open for the future. The program is completely online and relatively new (I'm in the second online class, the in-res classes have been going for almost 20 years though). The cirriculum was developed by GE/Martin Marietta/Lockheed back in the day and they have a lot of their employees involved in the program, which speaks volumes when searching for a future job.

Set up: Like I said, completely online. 12 courses, no thesis (final project instead). Each course is done one at a time, every 7 weeks, for 2 years. And since it was developed for working engineers, the professors have streamlined it so all of the classwork and homework fits into 4-6 hours a week - which so far has been successfully crammed into Saturday and Sundays. Coursework is pretty interesting too; very multidisciplinary, hits on a lot of topics like modeling, simulations, and analysis. Some of the work is a little weird, especially for engineers (like the psychology class I'm in now), but still interesting. Also, everyone helps out and contributes on the class discussion forums, which are a huge help for working on homework and prepping for the exams

Downside is mainly the cost. Cost per credit is $825 ($2475 per class). Also had to buy a printer/scanner for submitting homework too. Homework and all can be difficult at times, but hey that's engineering. Application didn't require the GRE but I took it anyway.

Fairly military friendly, about 8 people in my class are former or current military, including a NASA test pilot and a USAF MX O who's working on this over at Lakenheath, so it is possible to fit it into a high tempo schedule. For guys at McGuire and Dover, there are also in-residence classes at the Philadelphia Navy Yard which follow the same curriculum. I do know for a fact that you can switch over to online from in-res too, as one guy in my class just did that. AFIT offers Systems Engineering as well, but their program did not seem to be set up as well as Penn State's. Plus it's a great excuse to fill my closet with Penn State gear. It's a great option if you are looking to get a technical degree.

[Smokin]

How much do you guys think a "bachelors+" will hurt versus having the masters finished for the Major's board? I don't want to get a "check the square masters" and am currently looking at an MBA (I have about 1/3 of a Masters of History done, but decided that may not help me much after I get out). I pinned on Capt in June 08, so I can't find an MBA program that I will be able to finish before the Majors board meets.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for boards; how long before they meet do I have to finish my degree to have it count and when do they actually meet?

[Jughead]

How much do you guys think a "bachelors+" will hurt versus having the masters finished for the Major's board? I don't want to get a "check the square masters" and am currently looking at an MBA (I have about 1/3 of a Masters of History done, but decided that may not help me much after I get out). I pinned on Capt in June 08, so I can't find an MBA program that I will be able to finish before the Majors board meets.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for boards; how long before they meet do I have to finish my degree to have it count and when do they actually meet?

"Bachelors+" = "I don't have a Masters"; I don't know how heavily that's weighted on the O-4 board these days, but to the extent it's used as a discriminator, you're leaving yourself behind. [My opinion.]

Webster's MBA program can be done in under a year, particularly if you already have some classes under your belt (and, Webster will take just about anything toward elective credit). [My experience.]

Finishing the *degree* isn't truly the important date, it's *how quickly can you get it into your records*. Your Officer Selection Brief (correct term?) is pulled the day prior to the board meeting, so if it's in your record by then, the board will see it. How quickly you can get it into your records depends on both your school (most are reasonably fast, but they may have their own built-in delays for "review," etc., before the degree is actually awarded) and AFIT (who owns the process for recording academic degrees; they're usually pretty quick, since it's just data entry at that point). [My experience & my understanding of the process.]

Advice? If getting promoted is your goal, play the game. We can argue the sensibility of the rules all day, but the rules clearly are that "officers must get a masters degree to advance." Get your degree done before the board--even if it's a "check the square" degree--then get the degree you really want at your leisure. It will never hurt you to have an "extra" degree, but not having the first one can/will hurt you on promotion boards.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Jughead

[Chuck17]

It won't be too much of a discriminator for actually making major, but if IDE is your intended route of flight, it will probably hinder your chances.

I asked this very question to a dude who was on the last board.

A bachelors plus shows "intent" to get the masters done, you just dont have it done yet. If the board sees that you have a bachelors plus, they see that you actually gave a shit enough to get started and get the paperwork to AFIT, which is a pain in itself.

For all intents and purposes, a bachleors plus is a good start. Its better than nothing and will put you above those who dont have anything done. It doesnt hurt.

If youre on a long deployment, you need to working on your masters. If you pinned on in June of 08, you still have time. You can double up a couple of semesters and be done by the time your board meets. With luck, your school gives credit for SOS and the like. I know mine does, saving me 2 courses I dont have to take.

Regardless, since the shoes have removed deployment time from your board and un-masked whether or not you have the masters box checked, effectively castrating all the folks who are out doing the J-O-B and running the mission while empowering the REMFs, you need any help you can get. Dont forget to start your ACSC in correspondance as soon as you make major too.

Retarded!

Good luck.

Chuck

[Aurora85]

curious if anyone here knocked out their Aeronautical Science Masters while actively flying? I figure it can't be too hard, but I am worried about how much time it will take up. I'm TDY a decent amount but figured that while in the desert I could probably knock some of it out. If anyone here has gone through the program Id appreciate any info.

Gracias

[Guest Sandlapper]

curious if anyone here knocked out their Aeronautical Science Masters while actively flying? I figure it can't be too hard, but I am worried about how much time it will take up. I'm TDY a decent amount but figured that while in the desert I could probably knock some of it out. If anyone here has gone through the program Id appreciate any info.

Gracias

TUI University MBA program...the only way to go. Embry Riddle (from what I've heard) limits when certain classes are available, so it could take you a lot longer to finish if you don't start at the right time. Plus, I'm willing to bet that nobody gives a crap about a degree in Aeronautical Science in the post-USAF world...an MBA, on the other hand, might be more valuable later in life...food for thought. TUI isn't Harvard, but it is an MBA.

[WheelzUp]

I got the ERAU Masters while actively flying, but it was during an AETC tour. You will find however that ERAU and its extended campus instructors are quite flexible with students and their military schedules. I didn't deploy while I was getting the degree, but I certainly missed plenty of class due to late/night flying. You should go ask the question at your on-base ERAU office, because I am sure deployments are nothing new to them. As for the comment about classes only being offered during certain semesters...sure, but with a little prior planning (you can inquire as to what is coming up in the next year or so), it shouldn't be a problem. Good luck!

Wheelz

[Wolf424]

Plus, I'm willing to bet that nobody gives a crap about a degree in Aeronautical Science in the post-USAF world...an MBA, on the other hand, might be more valuable later in life...

I disagree. You should go ahead and do what it takes to fill the masters degree square while you are in with as little effort as possible. Get it over with, then get a real one when you get out of the military via GI Bill, TA, etc. Granted, no one will care about your ERAU degree, but I'd venture to say that not many people would care about your masters degree that is 10+ years old that you haven't used since you got it. For example, I am a Criminal Justice major, so it would be pointless to get a masters in anything related to my BA because it's one of those topics that changes so frequently. Just my .02.

[skinny]

I actually just enrolled in 2 ERAU Masters courses, my first two. Can someone enlighten me as to why these degrees won't do us any good post USAF? Granted it's not a technical masters by any stretch of the imagination but it's still a masters from an accredited university right? And if you're staying in the aviation world post AF, wouldn't an aviation related degree be to your benefit?

edit: bufoonery

Edited July 20, 2009 by skinny787

[Wolf424]

It's not that they won't be any good, it's just they will be outdated and old. It will still fill a square as having one, but it won't look as good on paper having not used it since you got it vs a guy who has. (Granted, if you get something aviation related and you are a pilot, then it's a different story)

[M2]

Yes, Wolf's got a good point; you get your masters the first couple of years you are in, then you retire 15+ years later and it is somewhat dated.

I got my first masters later in my career than most (I finished it when I was a major), but I still went after a second one after I retired as: 1) it supports what I do as a contractor, and 2) my company sponsors it. That is not to say you will have the same opportunity when it's your time; but it is just something to consider.

That said, don't let anyone convince you that a masters degree will ever do you harm, no matter how old it is. As someone who looks at a fair amount of resumes, having that advanced degree will always put you above someone without one (as long as there isn't too much difference in all other areas of experience). Plus, unless I am mistaken or the policy has changed once again, you'll pretty much need one to make Lt Col.

Again, none of the above is all-inclusive, YMMV and all that other crap!

Cheers! M2

[That Guy]

Just wanted to let ya know about another Master's program out there: Master of Science in Operations Management from the University of Arkansas. It's only 30 hours and you can complete it entirely online and in as little as one year. They also have sites at Hurlburt, Little Rock, and Memphis. It's a program mainly for military by military.

I won't be able to finish in a year, but am going to start next month. Hopefully I will be able to finish in the 6 year time frame and after UPT.

[Magellan]

How does someone set themselves to get picked up for AFIT to get a masters degree? I have read the AFIT webiste and the information on the process itself etc, but I am looking for a no BS answer from guys that have been around squadrons and seen guys who got picked up for it.

Mainly I want to know if I am currently working on finishing up my MAS from embry riddle before I make Captain did I just screw myself, because I already have a masters and therefore don't need another one?

Is AFIT one of those things you need to make known you want and if you do well when you apply your higher ups will try and hook you up if they think you are worth the effort, etc.

Also, on what kind of a time frame do they look to send guys to that program. Sr. Captain with SOS knocked out? After you make Major, but before you go to ACSC?

Any information would be very useful.

[HossHarris]

How does someone set themselves to get picked up for AFIT to get a masters degree? I have read the AFIT webiste and the information on the process itself etc, but I am looking for a no BS answer from guys that have been around squadrons and seen guys who got picked up for it.

Mainly I want to know if I am currently working on finishing up my MAS from embry riddle before I make Captain did I just screw myself, because I already have a masters and therefore don't need another one?

Is AFIT one of those things you need to make known you want and if you do well when you apply your higher ups will try and hook you up if they think you are worth the effort, etc.

Also, on what kind of a time frame do they look to send guys to that program. Sr. Captain with SOS knocked out? After you make Major, but before you go to ACSC?

Any information would be very useful.

Let's see if I can make this fairly simple.

When you get promoted to Major you will find out if you are an IDE in-residence 'Select' or not. If you are a 'select' you will go to IDE sometime before your LtCol board. That IDE could be ACSC in residence, or AFIT, or foreign IDE, or go to a civilian school and get a masters.

If you are not a 'select' you will have 3 'looks' to get picked up for an 'in-residence' slot. Once a year, and I haven't really heard of anyone getting picked up until their last look. Same 'choice' of school possibilities. You will know when your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd look is. Either way (as a select or if you get picked up after the fact) you will submit your preferences for school and AFPC will send you somewhere in a process similar to, but seperate from, the VML.

If you want to get an advanced degree from AFIT you have to apply to AFIT BEFORE they match you to a school. It's an easy process but you need to do a GRE. I personally think if you are a non-select and trying to get picked up for IDE it helps to be 'pre-accepted' to AFIT so the IDE board can see that. I'll let you know how that works out in a few months, since I'm on my last look.

So right now, you are a little ahead of the timeline as far as looking for the AF to send you to school ... hang on until yer a Major.

As far as doing a masters now, etc. .... If you do well it shows that you have the ability, drive, and time management skills to handle IDE in the future and should be a feather in your cap when you're getting considered for IDE in the future. Once you are a major-select you can start knocking out IDE in correspondance. I recommend the ACSC/Masters DL program. You get ACSC done and a masters in a little over a year entirely online through AU. It's an easily manageable program and then, hopefully, if you get picked up for school 'they' won't send you to ACSC again and you can avoid Maxwell. If you're a 'select' through the promotion then sit back and relax ... they'll send you somewhere.

/ramble off

[backseatdriver]

I should know the answer to this, but admittedly, I do not. I'm a mid-level capt looking to go to law school. Anybody have any words on programs that are out there to give me the two years out of the community to go hack this? Looking for some old craniums' advice...don't want to punch, just not a big fan of "checking the container" if the AF will help me pay for a Masters...words appreciated.

Yeah - if you go through one of the AF programs where you go full-time, you become a JAG. There's a program where the AF pays, you go full-time, and remain active-duty with pay/benefits. There's another one where you get released to go to school, pay for it yourself, don't get pay while you're there, but still get years towards retirement. I'm guessing the difference is the commitment you owe as a JAG. More info here: JAG programs

Really the only way to go to law school and not become a JAG is get stationed somewhere that has a night program for law school (not many out there, but I know there's one in Tampa, a few in DC, and some other places. Here's some more info: US News: Part-time law school

Rankings of part-time programs: Rankings

This is something I've looked into as well. I'd like to do law school, but don't want to be a JAG. Being a flyer, the only jobs I could get in DC or MacDill would be staff jobs, which would be a consistent schedule, but probably wouldn't be conducive to law school at night (most part-time programs take 4 years). But if you really want to do it you can make it work - good luck.

EDIT: to add rankings

Edited September 7, 2009 by backseatdriver

[Dupe]

Air University has opened up one version of it's ACSC online master's program to Captains.

Here's the eligibility requirements:

Active Duty USAF O-3s who:

-Have Total Active Federal Commission Service between 6 and 7 yrs as of application date

-Completed SOS

-Do not have a masters degree

Leadership Concentration (open to eligible captains)

NOTICE: The application process for the leadership concentration does NOT open until 2 Dec 09. See below for further details.

The new leadership concentration is specifically designed to prepare captains for the leadership responsibilities they will face as they progress through their careers in the USAF. The academic program structure remains unchanged: 11 courses with 7 core courses, and 4 concentration courses for a total of 33 semester hours credit. Students graduating from the leadership concentration will not receive IDE or Joint PME credit, but will receive a Master of Military Operational Art and Science degree.

A former squadron member of mine took this course last year and said it was relatively painless and it took him about 15 months to complete. The bonus is that its free so you don't have to dick around with tuition assistance or your GI Bill. The first round of registration closes 9 Dec 09, so act fast!

You can find more information here: AU Distance Learning Homepage

EDIT: punctuation error

Edited December 5, 2009 by Dupe

[Dupe]

I just got a slightly more in-depth briefing today on ACSC opening their online Master's program to captains. SOS is required to be complete, but it doesn't matter if its just by correspondence. The first class (beta test, if you will) will have 100 captains randomly selected. Those that don't get picked up on this first round are encouraged to keep applying and they will eventually be enrolled. Applications will be purged at the end of each application period, so keep reapplying. For questions, the ACSC hotline for this program is DSN 493-7902

[Smokin]

I'm trying to figure out how much difference it makes to have the masters done vs a BAC+ prior to the O-4 board in getting school select. During my last assignment, I planned out how long it would take me to get my masters, decided I could wait until we left Europe, and still get done in time. Long story short, my school didn't give me transfer credit for a couple of classes that I thought I'd get. Now I could either virtually kill myself with three classes at a time for the next two semesters and get it done in time for the board or I could go at a reasonable pace, easily get my BAC+ in time for the board and hope for the best. I plan on putting in 20 years, but not sure if I'll stay in after that. Just looking to keep as many doors open as possible

[ClearedHot]

I'm trying to figure out how much difference it makes to have the masters done vs a BAC+ prior to the O-4 board in getting school select. During my last assignment, I planned out how long it would take me to get my masters, decided I could wait until we left Europe, and still get done in time. Long story short, my school didn't give me transfer credit for a couple of classes that I thought I'd get. Now I could either virtually kill myself with three classes at a time for the next two semesters and get it done in time for the board or I could go at a reasonable pace, easily get my BAC+ in time for the board and hope for the best. I plan on putting in 20 years, but not sure if I'll stay in after that. Just looking to keep as many doors open as possible.

I would post the link but all of the AFPC info is now .mil only.

If you log on to the portal and go to officer promotions and search around a bit you can find statistics on each board for the past 10 years or so. They break down the board into numerous categories and you can see what the percentage is for each. As I recall you can see promo rates by AFSC, PME (broken into Res and Corr), DP or P, BAC+ or MS....etc.

If you are coming up on a board PME is a deal-breaker. If you don't have the appropriate PME complete the selection rate is 0%, even with a DP (on some past boards there were exceptions for BPZ folks, but still rare).

[Champ Kind]

So as long as I have my Masters done by the time my PRF is written it does not matter, right? I ask because I have completed 11/12 courses with Troy, as well as my comprehensive exam, but I am holding out for SOS in-res to count for that last class. I will likely not go until the end of this calendar year but my board is not until 2012. I am not hurting myself right?

I've busted my tail to get those 11 classes done - I don't think I can bring myself to do another (albeit last) course knowing that I have to go to SOS anyway, and that will count. All that it means is that it won't appear on my SURF until late this year/early next year as opposed to this summer.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Champ Kind

[stract]

as long as your SURF/PRF shows it's done prior to Spring 2012 (you said your board was in 2012), then that's good enough. You want your wing leadership to know you've checked both those boxes so that you get a DP leaving the wing.

[sky_king]

What is required for "Bachelors Plus" and is that even still a thing? I'm in my 4th class at TUniversityIUniversity and about ready to vStrangle my vProfessor because my vMasters is vRetarded real world retarded.

[jango220]

What is required for "Bachelors Plus" and is that even still a thing?

As long as you have 15 or more credits, have your transcript sent to AFIT. This site has the address and explains it all. Check vMPF and/or AMS after a couple weeks and it should be updated. Pretty easy to take care of, considering it required about 6 mouse clicks and some copy and paste of the address into my school's online form.

[Ravens52]

Has anyone applied for their second masters (TA approved) working the SAP/IAP at the Pentagon for a masters in International Affairs?

[JS]

Has anyone applied for their second masters (TA approved) working the SAP/IAP at the Pentagon for a masters in International Affairs?

Yup. Pretty straight forward. Follow the instructions on the letters to get it approved by SAP/IAP and eventually get with your education office (they will have to manually enter the courses into the vEducation area of the portal since the portal won't allow you to apply for TA on a second master's). Let me know if you have any specific questions.