Speaking a foreign language

[Kikuchiyo]

I was just thinking that Arabic is a very tough language and am I really gonna' be very fluent after 2-3 years.

No, you will not be fluent in 2-3 years of college Arabic. I know, I minored in Arabic, but can't speak a word of it. There's one thing most people don't realize about Arabic, especially as it's taught in colleges. Written Arabic has not evolved since the Quran was written in about 620 CE. The spoken language has changed and developed various regional dialects, but since the Quran was written in Allah's language, it can't be changed and everything else written must be written the same way. It would be like us writing everything in Old English (like Beowulf), but speaking modern American English. So colleges have to pick whether to focus on the written or a particular spoken dialect. If they choose to teach spoken, they will, of course, teach you to pronounce what you see written, but you'd be hard pressed to read and understand even a newspaper. If they teach written, you won't learn anything conversationally useful, and people will look at you funny if you try to speak it to them.

If you really want to learn a language, use Rosetta Stone, and pick one that isn't spoken anywhere $h1tty. Is there anywhere nice they speak Arabic - no. Is there anywhere crappy that they speak Japanese - no. Or Swedish, or Italian. German isn't a bad choice, either, but if the military knows you speak Arabic, you'll spend time in the sandbox. French = Africa. Spanish = a drug-war liaison in the jungles of South America.

I figured I'd take a Psych class so I can get a fair share of attractive women in one of my classes.. Plus it's a guaranteed A and I don't have to get up as early..

Exactly what I should've done.

[joshrk22]

No, you will not be fluent in 2-3 years of college Arabic. I know, I minored in Arabic, but can't speak a word of it. There's one thing most people don't realize about Arabic, especially as it's taught in colleges. Written Arabic has not evolved since the Quran was written in about 620 CE. The spoken language has changed and developed various regional dialects, but since the Quran was written in Allah's language, it can't be changed and everything else written must be written the same way. It would be like us writing everything in Old English (like Beowulf), but speaking modern American English. So colleges have to pick whether to focus on the written or a particular spoken dialect. If they choose to teach spoken, they will, of course, teach you to pronounce what you see written, but you'd be hard pressed to read and understand even a newspaper. If they teach written, you won't learn anything conversationally useful, and people will look at you funny if you try to speak it to them.

If you really want to learn a language, use Rosetta Stone, and pick one that isn't spoken anywhere $h1tty. Is there anywhere nice they speak Arabic - no. Is there anywhere crappy that they speak Japanese - no. Or Swedish, or Italian. German isn't a bad choice, either, but if the military knows you speak Arabic, you'll spend time in the sandbox. French = Africa. Spanish = a drug-war liaison in the jungles of South America.

Exactly what I should've done.

Thanks for the reply Kikuchiyo! Guess I'll just focus on Engineering and getting the best grades possible now and hopefully pick up a foreign language later on down the road.

[HeloDude]

Is there anywhere nice they speak Arabic - no.

Apparently you've never been to Amman, Jordan. Jordan is one of the neatest places I've ever been to and the site seeing is unbelievable--take Petra as a perfect example. Grant it, most people you deal with in Amman seem to speak at least decent English, but I'm sure knowing some Arabic wouldn't hurt, especially if you were assigned to the embassy. I bet Dubai in the UAE is along the same lines.

Here are the points I'd focus on when choosing to learn another language:

-Do you want to use it when you get out of the Air Force?

-If you've got considerable time left in the Air Force, is it one of the languages that will pay you? My best friend speaks fluent Hungarian and they pay him something like $250 extra a month...bastard.

-Is it a language you're personally interested in learning aside from the Air Force/future work? This will make you much more likely to stick with learning the language.

[joshrk22]

Apparently you've never been to Amman, Jordan. Jordan is one of the neatest places I've ever been to and the site seeing is unbelievable--take Petra as a perfect example. Grant it, most people you deal with in Amman seem to speak at least decent English, but I'm sure knowing some Arabic wouldn't hurt, especially if you were assigned to the embassy. I bet Dubai in the UAE is along the same lines.

Here are the points I'd focus on when choosing to learn another language:

-Do you want to use it when you get out of the Air Force?

-If you've got considerable time left in the Air Force, is it one of the languages that will pay you? My best friend speaks fluent Hungarian and they pay him something like $250 extra a month...bastard.

-Is it a language you're personally interested in learning aside from the Air Force/future work? This will make you much more likely to stick with learning the language.

When I was looking at studying the Arabic language, I also checked out some schools to study abroad at. Granted some countries are hell holes, but yes there are quite a few that are amazing places. I was actually looking at Jordan, UAE, and Saudi Arabia. I'm not going to be going AD AF so I don't know how much use the Guard/Reserves will get out of my language skills. I'm going to hopefully be working for a computer company (compsci major) so I'm not sure if the Arabic language would help much. Does anyone know if different government agencies want their computer guys to have a foreign language?

This is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to blast your reccommendation, but I have taken language classes in various forms and can say with 100% certainty that rosetta stone does nothing to teach you a language as a stand alone product. I believe it survives as a product on marketing, corporate liscencing, and the fact that it's revenue doesn't require a strong base of return customers.

The one thing it can do well is supplement your learning while you are taking the fundamentals in the classroom. But alone, you won't learn grammar or an extensive vocab, and it certainly won't teach you how to correctly pronounce foreign words because it provides no detailed feedback. Courses like Arabic are very difficult, with starkly different grammar, symbology, and even its own linguistic culture, as the previous poster said.

My current opinion is that, learning an new language might not help you make rank, but it certainly can open doors to an interesting career, if you are interested in working overseas or in Pol-Mil jobs. It will allow you to take LASI's, and is a big plus on the the RAS/PAS program board.

Do you feel that 2-3 years of college instruction in a tough language will teach you a lot? I took Spanish for 3-4 years and I'm still not close to fluent.

[Guest J-wax]

This is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to blast your reccommendation, but I have taken language classes in various forms and can say with 100% certainty that rosetta stone does nothing to teach you a language as a stand alone product. I believe it survives as a product on marketing, corporate liscencing, and the fact that it's revenue doesn't require a strong base of return customers.

The one thing it can do well is supplement your learning while you are taking the fundamentals in the classroom. But alone, you won't learn grammar or an extensive vocab, and it certainly won't teach you how to correctly pronounce foreign words because it provides no detailed feedback. Courses like Arabic are very difficult, with starkly different grammar, symbology, and even its own linguistic culture, as the previous poster said.

I am currently using Rosetta Stone to learn French and, overall, I really like it, but I also haven't finished the whole program yet. A side note, my Spanish is fairly decent and since the two are romance languages I would like to think that I have picked up the language and some of its nuances a bit faster than the average joe off the street. I have to agree that it will not teach you the grammar and finer mechanics of a language. RS relies a lot on repetition (which is a strength and a weakness) and so there is only so much they can cram into the software. After a while you get accustomed to a sort of challenge-response format; you can adequately respond to what you have been taught, but if the conversation gets too far off the beaten path you would be at a loss and lack the tools to hold a more fluid discussion. All that being said, I still think it is a cool and useful program and I am definitely going to continue using it for French and eventually Portuguese. However, in the future I will use a variety of other study materials such as books, podcasts, websites, and friends who already speak the language in conjunction with RS. But, in the end, nothing compares to immersion. Just my $.02.

Edited August 10, 2009 by J-wax

[JS]

...but it certainly can open doors to an interesting career, if you are interested in working overseas or in Pol-Mil jobs. It will allow you to take LASI's, and is a big plus on the the RAS/PAS program board.

Anybody have any thoughts or inputs on the RAS/PAS program or any other information on pol-mil jobs? More specifically, what types of assignments are people getting in the career field? What type of work are they doing? Are there a lot of rated guys in the program, and is it likely for a rated guy to get in?

I have read all of the memos and descriptions on the portal and have also visited the official RAS/PAS website, but I was just looking for anyone with some first hand experience with real-world stories from the program.

[flyguy2181]

uniformtutassistpol1.pdfTHREAD REVIVAL!

I found this memo while surfing the ACLC website. It appears to authorize TA foreign language classes that are not part of a degree plan. The classes have to be at a university. It doesn't pay for Rosetta Stone or anything like that. I'm not sure if anyone else has heard about this or used it but I thought it might be interesting to check out.

Edited August 6, 2010 by flyboy2181

[tripilot]

I was reading all the old stuff in this thread. Is it still the case that the AF pays you for being fluent in a foreign language, even if you don't use it for any reason? You just have to pass some proficiency test?

I'm reasonably fluent in Spanish; if I'm going to get paid $100/mo for that... that's awesome.

[Smokin]

tripilot: yes, the Air Force still pays for some languages. I doubt that Spanish is one of them, but you never know.

I have used Rosetta Stone and Pimsleur in the past and both programs have their pluses and minuses. Pimsleur was my favorite because it is mp3, so I could do the lessons in the car on the way to work. I also just started using www.livemocha.com and like it so far. It is free to do the early lessons and then if you like it you can buy more lessons for pretty cheap compared to a lot of other programs.

[Who?]

I was reading all the old stuff in this thread. Is it still the case that the AF pays you for being fluent in a foreign language, even if you don't use it for any reason? You just have to pass some proficiency test?

I'm reasonably fluent in Spanish; if I'm going to get paid $100/mo for that... that's awesome.

Short answer: if you're really, really good, you can get $500 a month for your Spanish knowledge through taking the DLPT. Full explanation follows...

The Air Force divides foreign languages into three categories: Immediate Investment, Strategic Stronghold, and Other. The rates of pay for performance on the Defense Language Proficiency Test (DLPT) are highest for the first category and go down from there. However, there are certain languages across the categories that are identified as "dominant" and starting in 2006, you could only be paid for your proficiency in them if you were in a language-specific AFSC or billet.

Spanish is one of these dominant languages -- even though it's an Immediate Investment language, it's also dominant, meaning there are enough proficient speakers already in the AF. The other dominant languages are German, French, Portuguese, Italian, Russian, Tagalog and Korean. Recent changes have brought back payment for these languages for all airmen, including those not in language-specific jobs, but you must test to a higher level of proficiency if you're testing in a dominant language (4/4 for Spanish and Tagalog, 3/3 for the other six languages).

You can be paid for proficiency in any language that's not among these eight as long as you achieve at least a 2/2 (Listening/Reading) score on the DLPT. If you're interested, AFI36-2605 has the rates of pay for all languages in Attachment 14 (p.81) and the memo that grants payment even for dominant languages to all AF members (along with a table for determining eligibility) at the very beginning of the pub. There are also explanations of what kind of skills it takes to achieve certain scores, etc.

AFI36-2605

Edited August 7, 2010 by Who?

[Jughead]

Is it still the case that the AF pays you for being fluent in a foreign language

Who? answered that pretty thoroughly (much more details than I knew) and I have nothing to add to that part.

However, keep in mind the flip side to the coin--the AF's side of the bargain, if you will. Once you're identified as possessing the specific skill level in a specific language, you're on the hook for any must-fill billets (long or short tour, accompanied or unaccompanied, TDY/deployment, or otherwise) that require those skills. Are there any places in the world, where Spanish is the predominant language and where we have a military presence (even a single LNO), to where you DON'T want to be tagged to go (potentially--even likely--on little or no-notice)...? How do you feel about leaving your current airframe/job/community?

I've seen it happen. Your current AFSC/functional/commander/career path/personal desires/TOS/anything else won't mean a damn thing if you get tagged. I know several folks with native-speaker levels of fluency in some high-demand languages (including Arabic) who do not test for that exact reason--the risk (likelihood) of being summarily grabbed and sent to a shithole location, all other considerations be damned, is just too great. Be sure the risk is worth it to you for whatever pay amount you can potentially get....

[TMFan]

Once you're identified as possessing the specific skill level in a specific language, you're on the hook for any must-fill billets (long or short tour, accompanied or unaccompanied, TDY/deployment, or otherwise) that require those skills.

I've seen it happen. Your current AFSC/functional/commander/career path/personal desires/TOS/anything else won't mean a damn thing if you get tagged. I know several folks with native-speaker levels of fluency in some high-demand languages (including Arabic) who do not test for that exact reason--the risk (likelihood) of being summarily grabbed and sent to a shithole location, all other considerations be damned, is just too great. Be sure the risk is worth it to you for whatever pay amount you can potentially get....

Jughead, can you clarify that you have seen first-hand an individual with a DLPT score on the books get non-vol'd for something? From what I have seen of the way the Air Force (mis)manages these programs, it often puts an individual through a year or more of language training instead of tapping someone that already has the proficiency. I know many people that have high DLPT scores in high demand languages (including Arabic) that often get volunteer solicitations, but have never been forced into anything.

[Jughead]

Jughead, can you clarify that you have seen first-hand an individual with a DLPT score on the books get non-vol'd for something?

I have seen exactly that. Twice to (different) coworkers, and a few more times to a "do you know so-and-so...?"

To make matters worse, on one of the directly-observed times, the language in question was Spanish--hardly a difficult fill. The location was South America somewhere (Honduras, maybe?), and the individual in question was going to be heading to IP upgrade in about two weeks. No amount of work on the OG's part (I don't know if it went higher than that) made even a dent in the process, to include offering up another qualified individual who was a volunteer. Once that train started moving, there was no stopping it (at least not at the O-6 OG level). That's about 13 years ago now, so YMMV these days....

From what I have seen of the way the Air Force (mis)manages these programs, it often puts an individual through a year or more of language training instead of tapping someone that already has the proficiency. I know many people that have high DLPT scores in high demand languages (including Arabic) that often get volunteer solicitations, but have never been forced into anything.

I'm not saying it always happens the hard way--I'm just saying it *can*. I've also seen it the way you describe, and to be fair, that does seem to be the preferred method. Factor all that into any risk/reward equation you do for the monthly paycheck, but keep in mind that you *can* be forced to go wherever/whenever, as dictated by needs of the Air Force. And, if you think about it, that capability is exactly why you get paid for language proficiency in the first place....

[pbar]

For those interested in the RAS program, the language testing requirements are changing next year. They are dropping the listening portion of the DLPT for RAS officers and in place of that, the RAS officers will have to do an Oral Proficiency Interview. Apparently, they are trying to motivate RAS officers to improve their speaking skills. If you get a 2+ or better on the speaking, there will be a "bonus", though the message I saw didn't specificy what that was. Getting a 2+ on the OPI will probably be very difficult for most. I know it will be for me.

As an aside, I was told that for my next assignment I only have two choices- go back to fly or go to a RAS position.

PBAR

[Beaver]

Why would the AF pay someone to be proficient in Spanish when, judging by the number of rearview mirror flags I've seen, we have approximately 1,000,000 Puerto Ricans on base we could send on these TDYs?

And I think if need be we could mobilize the bagger corps at the commissary for taskings in certain AORs, if you know what I mean.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Beaver

[killacam]

Jughead, can you clarify that you have seen first-hand an individual with a DLPT score on the books get non-vol'd for something? From what I have seen of the way the Air Force (mis)manages these programs, it often puts an individual through a year or more of language training instead of tapping someone that already has the proficiency. I know many people that have high DLPT scores in high demand languages (including Arabic) that often get volunteer solicitations, but have never been forced into anything.

I'm awaiting pilot training and I speak and understand two of the Immediate Investment languages well enough to get paid. The thing is, both languages are widely spoken in the so-called shithole countries like Pakistan, India and the Middle East in general so I'm a little apprehensive about getting these tests on my record.

BL: Although it might not be desirable to get pulled out of flying duties to pull tours in the sandbox, have you guys seen these assignments help or hurt careers? Just trying to decide whether or not the pros outweigh the cons...

[pbar]

Looks like the AF just added a new tie-breaker to the promotion process...foreign language ability.

"by Daniel P. Elkins

Air Force Personnel, Services and Manpower Public Affairs

1/5/2011 - WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- In an effort to better highlight candidates who possess the skills necessary for officer promotion in today's expeditionary Air Force, senior Air Force officials approved changes to the officer selection brief.

The modified officer selection brief will be used beginning with boards in June and include a more detailed professional military education section, the addition of a foreign language proficiency section and an acquisition qualifications section.

"The modifications to the officer selection brief better highlight important competencies for global Air Force operations and allow officers with these attributes to be more easily identified by promotion boards," said Brig. Gen. Sharon Dunbar, the force management policy director, deputy chief of staff for manpower and personnel.

The Force Management and Development Council, which makes strategic-level recommendations to the secretary of the Air Force and chief of staff of the Air Force on force management and development issues based on input from leaders across the Air Force, recommended the modifications as a means to identify Air Force officers with key skills in today's force.

For example, the enhanced PME section reflects the Air Force's emphasis on officer development. The section will include an at-a-glance summary of the school attended, method of completion and date of completion. Previously, the section just included the level of schooling and date of completion.

The council also found that officers who have foreign language skills and cultural experience relevant to world operations play a key role in supporting joint combatant commanders. Therefore, they recommended the addition of a foreign language section to help identify these in-demand officers to promotion boards. This new section will capture the language, listening and reading proficiency level and a certification date."Officers who possess such language skills and cultural understanding underscore the service's efforts in developing regional expertise and building partnerships across the globe," said Mike Nolta, the deputy chief of the international Airmen division for the Secretary of the Air Force International Affairs office.

Finally, the addition of the acquisition certification section helps identify those contracting professionals who have the necessary skills and training to ensure acquisition excellence--one of the Air Force's top priorities. The brief identifies majors who have met all acquisition corps eligibility requirements with the exception of rank as "eligible" for admission into the Air Force Acquisition Corps.

Personnel officials said identifying these Airmen also keeps the Air Force in compliance with U.S. code that ensures active-component officers selected for the acquisition corps are promoted at the rate of line officers. This code does not apply to the Reserve component.

Promotion boards are conducted and administered at the Air Force Personnel Center and Air Reserve Personnel Center. For more information and links to resources, visit the Officer Promotions page at the Air Force Personnel Center personnel services website or call the Total Force Service Center at 800-525-0102."

[Champ Kind]

It's a shame the section won't at least include a line in there that contains your DLAB score, if you have one.

[M2]

Looks like they're pushing for more people to go the IAS/PAS/RAS route...

[Whitman]

1/5/2011 - WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- In an effort to better highlight candidates who possess the skills necessary for officer promotion in today's expeditionary Air Force, senior Air Force officials approved changes to the officer selection brief.

What's an officer selection brief and how is it used?

[magnetfreezer]

What's an officer selection brief and how is it used?

Version of your SURF that goes in the promotion folder along with OPRS/Decs and PRF for O-4 and above boards.

[Whitman]

Version of your SURF that goes in the promotion folder along with OPRS/Decs and PRF for O-4 and above boards.

Thanks, I assumed a full SURF was included in the promotion folder.

[Champ Kind]

I did too. So that fact that I scored high on the DLAB means diddly-squat to my O-4 board?

[magnetfreezer]

I did too. So that fact that I scored high on the DLAB means diddly-squat to my O-4 board?

AF explanation of it. The OSB is also what they were talking about when announcing that masters degrees were masked/not masked. Even though DLAB/masters/etc may not be on the OSB, if it's available to your senior rater it could affect your PRF or DP allocation.

Edited January 7, 2011 by magnetfreezer

[Guest]

This stuff matters. I heard there is a new Wind Talker division of the weapons school starting up soon.

igpay atinlay. Study up, you'll be fine.