Doing Well in UPT

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by zrooster99:

I've always heard that there are very few good sticks out there, but lets say you are a good stick (not that I'm saying I am, just curious), have a good attitude, but struggle in other areas...has anyone seen that?

What "other areas" are you talking about?

[zrooster99]

Instrument stuff would be one example...I'm not saying you just don't get it, but you had to work for it more than others maybe... I am speaking truly hypothetically, I haven't personally had a problem with the limited Instrument stuff I've done... not having been there yet, that's the only example I can think of right now...

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Gotta believe that fate has a lot to do with what folks fly. Some people think they want to fly something but really don't know what is the best situation for them. I know I was that way before I was commissioned. I did not know much about the aircraft I thought I wanted to fly at the time, and I knew even less about the aircraft that I do fly now. I really could not imagine being in any other airframe though. Whatever machine a person winds up in, they will enjoy. Very rarely is this not the case. A lot of it has to do with not having the full picture of what life is like in a particular airframe, behind the scenes and all. Everyone has their own niche and is an important member of the team. People just have to put forth their best effort and the rest will take care of itself. If it is meant to be, it will be. Just a little philosophy that some agree with and others disagree with.

[Guest KoolKat]

Struggling with something in particular isn't a big deal. Assuming you figure it out well enough to pass your checkride.

I have a piece of paper in my folder that says I struggled with the Instrument/Nav phase due to task saturation in the air.

I'm at Corpus doing an extremely difficult instrument program...

On the other side, I excelled at formation...I found it to be the easiest of all the phases in the Tweet...but, still at Corpus...still flying instruments.

Nothing to worry about, some guys/girls have more strength at one and less at another...Apply yourself and you have ample time to work through any difficulties that you may have.

[zrooster99]

I thought you might be talking about "other areas" like SA. Some things only God can give you.

I kind of figured that being able to generate some good SA is a prerequisite to getting a pointy jet(correct me if I'm wrong)... I can't say for sure that when the time comes I'll have it, but figured if I didn't I could kiss my fighter aspirations good by. No SA problems in the old PA-22, but obviously there's really no comparison there.

To clarify my question, if you get some down grades in some areas, or even hook a ride and clean it up here and there...but eventually get the job done and are a pretty good stick right out of the box is it likely, possible, unlikely that you would get a fighter...or is that just not enough information.

I know it's a lot of what-ifs...if you can't answer the question, I understand.

[ 13. June 2005, 08:27: Message edited by: zrooster99 ]

[Scooter14]

TONS of what-ifs. If you give it 110% and are a team player, but you hook a couple daily rides, it shoud work its way out, unless there are enough dudes doing the same who didn't hook any rides (unlikely) and the slots are limited, then it could come down to who got 100% on the Weather test and who got a 95%. It can be that close.

All you can do is the best you can. When you go home after drop night, no matter what you got, if you can honestly answer "yes" to the question "Did I give it my absolute best shot?" then you should pass out happy, because as long as you keep a good attitude and work ethic, you will do even better in your next phase of training.

[Guest KoolKat]

Well said PAB.

z...If getting a pointy one is what your after, more indepth to what PAB said, strive for 100's on every test (SHOULD be free points, although 100 on everyone takes some effort.)

Also, work dilligently on every daily ride (i.e. be prepared and willing to learn and concentrate hard enough not to fux up simple procedural stuff.) Most people hook at least one; few people make it through primary not hooking anything, which is great for them. (IMHO, it should be quite possible if your not a bonehead like me.)If it happens, shake it off, truely learn from what you did and why exactly you let that happen each and every time and you should always be well prepared for the checkride, flying wise at least.

That being said, flying aspects are not the end all to checkrides. Study, study, study, unless you have a photographic memory...then . Downgrades from General Knowledge blow and add up over the longterm. Besides, if your a tool and blow it off you'll get one of those nifty ground evaluations to see if you should get kicked out of the program. This is a IP sitting there and flipping page after page of any regulation or the -1 he/she chooses and asking radom questions from each page, yikes. Actually saw that...very glad not to be in that chair, yikes.

If you really want a do everything you can to snag a pointy-one, what PAB said holds first and foremost. Just to add, definitly aim not to hook a checkride, and definitly not to fail a test. Those kind of dings hurt when you get compared to your peers, they set you apart, you know...on the wrong side.

But, like Beerman just pointed out, just because you hook a checkride doesn't mean you can't get one either.

I reiterate, PAB nailed it and Beerman points out the fluid nature of track select, but maybe this adds a little more concrete aspect to it. If you care, great, and if you don't I guess I wasted even more time posting on this fabulous forum...SOMEONE MARK THAT TIME IN THE LOGBOOK!

Good Luck & for the record, I'm gonna pray to God for some more SA tonight, I need it! :confused:

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by B-O-double-Z:

This is an interesting post. It's been a long time since I was at UPT, but it got me thinking about how I would have done in this new dual-track system.

I started out slow in T-37s. The only flying experience I had was the 15 hours or so of C-172 (T-41) that you got prior to UPT back then. I probably wouldn't have gotten to go to T-38s in today's program. Eventually the light bulb came on, and I did well in T-38s and got an A-10.

I would think, that with the track selection coming half-way through UPT, that you'd want to get a great start out of the blocks. For you FAIPs and recent UPT grads...do you think this system favors folks with a bunch of previous flying experience? I could see how it might. One of my problems early on wasn't the flying part, but that I just didn't have any overall aviation awarness/savy (things like radio calls, clearances, airspace, pattern deconfliction, instruments). I would have really benefited from some previous flying experience, but I had time to "rebound" under the old system where everyone flew T-38s.

One of my main concerns is...what basis do the instuctors have for being able to predict who is "fighter pilot material" and who isn't? Are there enough fighter pilots flying T-37s/T-6 to have the overall picture, and a basis for deciding who is best suited for fighters? What are the percentages of FAIPs/Heavy/Fighter guys instructing in T-6/T-37 these days?

Are these guys (UPT students) being split into the heavy and fighter tracks for the right reasons? Some of the guys I've instructed in A-10 FTU in the past few years don't seem all that swift to me. But...I know they must have made it to the top of their classes in UPT...somehow. I'm bias...and a product of the "old" system, but I think you need more than six months in a T-37 to know who's got "it" and who doesn't.

Anyone?

Bozz brings up an interesting point in the "old system" vs the "new system". Having instucted in the T-38 in BOTH programs I also saw some weird things with SUPT. I asked the same questions and my own UPT experience is just like his.

For those that want to know how to get ahead, get your hands on the -1 for whatever airplane you fly first and know it the day you walk in the door. Second, learn the IFG, front to back and back to front. The "chair fly" technique is critical.

As for the old program vs the new, I liked the syllabus in SUPT BUT and sorry to say this to the SUPT grads but the T-38's have lowered their standards in regards to how long they let you stick around. I saw too many guys busting too many T-38 checks AND STILL getting a fighter, part of the reason IFF used to have so many problems. There was SOME MYTH out there about the T-1 not washing people out, maybe they didn't, but the T-1 got too many students that SHOULD HAVE BEEN in fighters, likewise there were many T-38 students I saw that would have done fine in the T-1. In the old days guys that did REAL GOOD in the T-38 (classes in 82,83,84,85,86 and on)but

were not top 5% got FAIPED, it was nothing to see 20 FAIPS in one class. The top grads got what they wanted, the next group in the FAR block got FAIPED and the bottom of the FAR block got their

fighter for whatever reason. TTB, many times were by choice or they finished lower.

Bottom line, do what has been suggested, keep the good attittude, DON'T WORRY ABOUT DAILY GRADES AND IF YOU DO, DON'T LET ANYONE HEAR YOU ***** or you are a mort.

[Login Name]

This thread started out great then went on to just *****ing back and forth and seems to have finally gotten back to excelling at UPT. You guys have wings on your chest and fly. I fly a desk and would give my left nut to have a shot at UPT. I'm applying this year, hopefully things work out. Do I care what I fly? No. I just want to fly b/c that's the only thing I've ever wanted to do...you guys should probably be thankful that you are flying and get that luxury.

For those that actually gave good hints/explanations on doing well at UPT, thanks, hopefully I'll get the chance to use them.

[Guest SnakeT38]

I am one of the heavy to fighter "converts". I will say that when I went to UPT and went through the T-38, there were SO MANY FAIP'S that no one really pushed me one way or the other. Though I had FAR type results, I went to UPT thinking C-141's was as good as it gets (due to massive TDY

and type of flying I now know better). As I remember there was maybe 1 C-141 available AND A CHICK HAD TO GET IT!

T-37's wanted me in a "bad" way, but when I said

and no offense to T-37 drivers, I can't watch someone PUKE AND possibly PROJECT IT my way w/o

possible "loss of control", they changed their minds. In those days there were probably 20 SAC bases and the D,G and H B-52's were EVERYWHERE!

They said it's a BUFF or an O-2........looking back and after having been a FAC (and loved it), I should have JUMPED ALL OVER THAT O-2! Instead I went to Grand Forks..........you might have seen my post about that place.........Rainman would HAVE LOVED MY JOB, because he would have been very close to all his NODAK buddies, NOT FOR ME!

The good deal was T-38 ACE.........otherwise known as the WILD WILD WEST with afterburners and unlimited flying time.

T-38IP was a NATURAL GET OUT OF DODGE CARD. Then, I was put in a flight with FAIP'S that got fighters, went to Holloman (Fighter Lead-In as it was called then). They came back and had several months to wait for RTU...........what do you think they taught ALL OF US? Lets just say my

BFM skills were "honed" time to time. The "monster" was born.............I started looking for a fighter in USAFR/ANG, made ONE PHONE CALL TO BAD..........only requirement was to move there..........I did. One year later, the

"forefathers" at the A-10 FWIC that taught Rainman what he knows, were in our unit.

I am curious to see if any fighter guys have flown with any of the "Heavy" drivers that converted under the "crossflow" program that was going on in the late 90's.........I flew against many of them when I went to PIT in 97 for the USAFR.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by SnakeT38:

One year later, the

"forefathers" at the A-10 FWIC that taught Rainman what he knows, were in our unit.

Amen. Some great shits and A-10 legends.

[Toro]

Do not study the IFG prior to UPT.

[Guest Av8rCadet]

Hey Toro just curious about your comment, is it because the IFG is updated often enough that you might study the wrong material? Or is it for some "suck-up" reason?

Great thread, I take 75% of it with a grain of salt but its golden.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Av8rCadet:

is it because the IFG is updated often enough that you might study the wrong material?

No, it's because you have a metric f*ckload of stuff to learn in UPT and if you're going to try to commit something to memory prior to UPT, the IFG is not where you want to waste your brain bites. The IFG deals with local procedures like airspace, departures, recoveries, and local EP standards. This is stuff you're not going to get into until Phase II. Learn the systems of your aircraft first, then worry about the lateral confines of your airspace.

The only thing Study the Dash 1 - particularly, Chapters 1 and 3.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Here's a technique for once you get to UPT. Chair fly your mission but start by pretending you dropped everything under the seat as soon as you climbed up the ladder. Try to fly the mission without any of the crap you usually refer to inflight. "Cheat" by pulling out the required checklist/publication whenever you can't remember something during your little chair fly sortie. Make a note of what you need to "cheat" on. Memorize those things. Repeat as required until you have memorized every single thing you need to fly the mission.

Don't think of it like "I can't memorize all this!" Think of it like "Is this all I have to memorize for this sortie? No sweat!"

You will blow everyone you fly with/against away if you can learn to trust your memory like that. You will also develop that highly elusive (for some) thing called SA if you rid yourself of all those silly time wasting SA dumping kneeboard referencing crutches. Memorize it and know you'll be able to remember it when you need it.

Technique only.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Here's a technique for once you get to UPT. Chair fly your mission but start by pretending you dropped everything under the seat as soon as you climbed up the ladder. Try to fly the mission without any of the crap you usually refer to inflight. "Cheat" by pulling out the required checklist/publication whenever you can't remember something during your little chair fly sortie. Make a note of what you need to "cheat" on. Memorize those things. Repeat as required until you have memorized every single thing you need to fly the mission.

Don't think of it like "I can't memorize all this!" Think of it like "Is this all I have to memorize for this sortie? No sweat!"

You will blow everyone you fly with/against away if you can learn to trust your memory like that. You will also develop that highly elusive (for some) thing called SA if you rid yourself of all those silly time wasting SA dumping kneeboard referencing crutches. Memorize it and know you'll be able to remember it when you need it.

Technique only.

And what an EXCELLENT technique it is! FNGs pay attention!

I can't tell you how many dudes I've studied with who walk in with a 1" thick pile of papers strapped to their knee board...then wonder why they can't find anything once they're airborne and end up tanking the sortie because they spent what little free time they had making "cheat sheets" in Excel instead of STUDYING the shit! KISS; there is no substitute for chair flying.

[ 07. August 2005, 18:20: Message edited by: Bergman ]

[Scooter14]

Amen to that. I have seen what Bergman is talking about, and it never ceased to amaze me. I would be done studying and ready to go, and they are still typing every last detail of the sortie onto their lineup card.

[Guest haddin]

One of my concerns has been that the 'good' habits I've formed in GA flying may not exactly have positive cross-over into the military side. Having flown a military jet once- T-37 about 5 years ago on an rotc ride - I can't even pretend to know all the differences.

So how do 'those guys' generally do?

-mh

[Toasty]

Originally posted by madhatter:

One of my concerns has been that the 'good' habits I've formed in GA flying may not exactly have positive cross-over into the military side.

Alot of civi-stuff will cross over, especially if you already have your instrument ticket. However, be prepared to RAM-dump anything that conflicts with what you learn at training, and study the hell out of it if you can't seem to get past an old habit.

[Guest Crisco Kid]

I'll give a little perspective from a prior-enlisted, reserve tanker clown.

1.) going to UPT to fly anything is a blessing

2.) dont take anything personal

3.) know your aircraft's systems

4.) know the Dash 1 intimately

5.) dont drink and act stupidly while in the AETC

6.) take care of your buds, you will have them forever

7.) keep your trap shut and learn from others

8.) dont accept less than perfection ie. flying 50ft below cruise altitudes and 1 mile off a dme arc is not good, even though acceptable to some

9.) Enjoy it, everyone on here would trade places with you. It was by far the best time of my life.

10.) Take care of yourself, eat right and work out.

11.) Try your hardest and keep your eye on the goal, be it fighters or heavies.

Finally, as has been said its all about attitude. If you want fighters work to get them. I always wanted fighters, ever since leaving the Marines but I was sitting in the sandbox as a 135 boomer when my tanker unit offered to send me to UPT (beggars aren't choosers and you cant rush a unit from the deid). I did manage to get hired by a F16 guard unit at the end of tweets, and I even had my tanker wing C/C's blesing but after one day in 38's the AFRC CC, who shall remain nameless called me personally and told me that he was giving no one to the guard and to report T-1's the next morning. This pissed me off to the point that I almost SIE'd having never even hooked a ride. Long story short, I stayed, Toners was fun, the tanker if fun, so rest assured that a UPT slot is the best thing that you could ever hope for, and getting your wings, you cannot lose. .Good Luck, and enjoy the ride !

[Guest lbflying419]

Hey, I'm in UPT right now at Laughlin, about half way through t-6's, just thought I'd share my perspective.

It seems that the issue on half the threads here on baseops is "what should I do so that I can get fighters out of UPT?" Well I wanted an answer to that before I started UPT as well. Afterall, it's wise to want to prepare. But the only universal answers I got were read the dash 1 and have a good attitude. I tried pretty hard to get my hands on a -1 before I got here, but I wasn't at a t-6 base and I didn't have any t-6 friends, so I never saw the dash 1 until UPT handed me one. It hasn't hurt me (or anyone else in our class) at all. Now that I'm here in the thick of it, I'm pretty sure reading the dash 1 before UPT wouldn't have helped me at all. That's no offense to those who have suggested it. I'm just saying that I don't think it would have benefitted me, and I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have helped anyone else in my class.

So is there anything you can do before UPT to help you get fighters?

From what I can tell, nope.

Sucky answer? maybe, but just my opinion. Just make the decision that when you get to UPT you'll follow all of the previous advice given on this thread - it's golden. I'd be more than happy to talk about this or anything UPT related if you want to email me lbflying@yahoo.com.

[BlackKnight]

One of my concerns has been that the 'good' habits I've formed in GA flying may not exactly have positive cross-over into the military side. Having flown a military jet once- T-37 about 5 years ago on an rotc ride - I can't even pretend to know all the differences.

So how do 'those guys' generally do?

-mh [ 22. November 2006, 01:38: Message edited by: madhatter ]

MH,

I was a CFII with a multiengine rating before upt. To answer your question did it help, I would say absolutely, up to a point. Being a flight instructor taught me how important it was to be an expert in your airplane (not too hard in a C-152, but hey, it was a start). Also, being responsible for me, the student, and the airplane taught me how to be a Pilot IN COMMAND, not just a follower/monkey (again, in a crappy little C-152, but it was still a learning experience). Even though those things seem laughable now, 10 years ago it did help set the stage.

The basic flying familiarity helped during initial contact phase, including how an airplane flies, basic controls, airspace, and the like. Radio procedures were alot easier to pick up as well. Where I found the largest gain was during instrument phase in Tweets. Especially when you step back into the stone age with how the instruments were arranged in that thing (probably much easier in the T-6). Most of my fellow classmates understood basic flight and could get the hang of radio procedurs early on in UPT. But to most guys who have never flown instruments, that stage was a bear. I felt for them. Now, this all ties into attitude, help your fellow classmates, and work as a team. I was a (civilian) instrument flight instructor. Instrument phase in tweets came fairly easy to me- so I spent most of my time instructing my buds. They knew to come to me with questions. I taught guys at night- either in groups, individually, or in the simulator. It really helped us all. I was learning as a by-product of teaching. They were ecstatic someone had familiarity with instruments. Now, include attitude. I didn't carry a chip because I knew a little more or was having an easier time (nothing could make you more of a douche or hated by your classmates than having even a sliver of an attitude like that). The IP's had no idea of my flying history or that I was helping the other guys. We all worked as a team- a great experience. Later, when i struggled in formation or elsewhere, the guys who were having an easier time helped me- what comes around, goes around.

AS for low level/nav/advance contact/formation. Just from flying alot I was a little familiar with clock-map-ground stuff and looking outside. I had no aerobatic experience so advanced contact was new to me. Where the civilian flying experience worked negatively for me was formation. I had flown a bunch of hours, all single ship. To have another airplane 3 feet from me or somewhat close was very foreign- it was weird. Took a little longer for me to "get it" (sts).

Bottom line- all flying experience helps. It helped during initial contact and instruments in tweets. After that, we were all on an even playing field.

[brabus]

Flying experience helps, but it also depends on the person. I've seen guys with 20 hrs of IFS do pretty well considering while guys with over a 1000 hrs struggled. A lot of it is attitude...prior flight experience can work for you or against you. The reason I think the 1000+ guys are having trouble is b/c they are having a difficult time letting go of civilian habits, realizing that just b/c they have a bunch of hours doesn't mean their superman in the plane and thus don't have to work as hard/listen to people, etc. Kinda weird, but my personal glimpse on this situation so far is that the guys with 100-200 hrs are doing the best while the guys with 500+ are doing average at best. Sort of like a bell curve with 100-200 being the peak. Maybe it's just pure coincidence, but that's what I've seen in my little corner of UPT. An interesting thing at the least.

Best advice I can give is let your experience work for you, but ALWAYS remember that just b/c you have some time doesn't mean you're going to be T-6 god (maybe it will help you do very well, maybe it won't). Stay humble and remember you don't know everything and regardless of how many hours you have, you're still going to have to work your ass off. Be willing to accept/ask for help and you'll do just fine.

[Guest RabidWombat]

It is easy to forget...

"what do they call the guy who graduates last in his UPT class?"

"Pilot"

NEVER get it into your head that if you aren't going pointy then you've failed. Don't believe for a second that because your mid-term review said bottom third that everyone is "sooo much better than me". The differences between you and your peers in pilot training is millimeters. Do not believe for a second that any track is a cakewalk(i failed my first test in corpus.... yup, im that guy, if you wanna know about corpus send me a PM and we can talk about bowtie approaches with the gas mask on, while partial panel).

Heavies are not a punishment. That is the wrong mindset. If you think that kc-10 pilot who is dragging 6 pointy's across the pond is a dunce, or that herk guy responsible for 50 lives on a low-level to the LZ didn't "have it" then re-evaluate your attitude. Those who didn't have it, didn't make it.

When trying to figure out if you really want to go fighters, do not make a decision based upon what its like to fly with a faip... go find an old reserve guy. They are the coolest, and can actually tell you about life in a fighter squadron.

keep heart, study, and take care of your bro's cuz its you against them. Studs against IPs. Red Sox against Yankees(The faips are the yankees because they are evil).

[brabus]

The UTDs can be extremely helpful...I highly recommend you take whatever time you can get to use those. The biggest thing is prioritizing...MSFS should be very low on your list. The amount of time you spend awkwardly changing radio freqs w/ the mouse, etc. could be better spent just closing your eyes and visualizing in your head. I'm not just a "hater," I've BTDT, but my opinion is just different than Aloha's. Best thing would be to form your own opinion, but I caution you to not spend a bunch of time on MSFS...I really believe you'll gain much less than what you would by just "old-fashioned" chair flying and studying the pubs. The best thing you can do for yourself during Phase I is go to the T-6 UTDs every day and spend an hour running all the checklists. That will help you a lot once you hit the flight line; and you will have time during Phase I to do this.