Navigator to pilot

[barney]

does anyone know how common it is to go from being a navigator to being selected for pilot? once on AD do you have to serve out your nav ADSC if not can you apply earlier? Once you are nav qualified does the air force genrally like to keep you there or is it no big deal to switch? Thanks for any tips.

[Toasty]

I'm a nav-select in ROTC. From what I hear it has been VERY common in the past for many nav's to bump up to pilot before commissioning, however at my det we haven't seen anyone upgrade yet for FY06. Once on AD I believe its a 2.5 year wait before you can begin UPT, so you can apply a little earlier, and I think you can get waivers to start sooner too. From what I hear, it doesn't seem like too big of a deal to the USAF to switch if you qualify and get your CC to sign for it.

But again, all of this is second hand knowledge. Someone with more accurate info may chime in.

[Guest doug76]

As with all things there are advantages and disadvantages to the situation. If you go NAV you'll get flight experience, possibly combat experience, and you'll be rated. You will then get to compete on the same board that the non-flyers meet with a tremendous advantage.

However as a NAV you must be rated(NOT commissioned) for 2.5 years before you are eligible to compete(waivers maybe but don't count on it). Combine that with the 5 year commisioned service cut off and you're looking at one AD board maybe two before you're done.

One the other hand if you go into the non-rated fields you're eligible to compete the following year. Again with the 5 year commisioned cutoff you're looking at about four boards before you're done.

However you'll lack the Aviation experience going and will be competing with rated guys on the board.

My advice is to go into one of the non-rated career fields and bust your ass. Get yourself into an aeroclub and befriend one of the old heads and have him teach you everything that he knows. Apply to pilot on all the boards that come up while you're eligible and I'll bet you'll get picked up within a couple of years. I am a NAV turned Pilot but I can tell you I was lucky and got in before the force shaping stuff and the "to many pilots" BS. Looking at it now with only one shot at a board and less than 20% selection rate for pilot there is no way in hell I'd take those odds, but I'm not a betting man. Good luck.

d

[Guest doug76]

As with all things there are advantages and disadvantages to the situation. If you go NAV you'll get flight experience, possibly combat experience, and you'll be rated. You will then get to compete on the same board that the non-flyers meet with a tremendous advantage.

However as a NAV you must be rated(NOT commissioned) for 2.5 years before you are eligible to compete(waivers maybe but don't count on it). Combine that with the 5 year commisioned service cut off and you're looking at one AD board maybe two before you're done.

One the other hand if you go into the non-rated fields you're eligible to compete the following year. Again with the 5 year commisioned cutoff you're looking at about four boards before you're done.

However you'll lack the Aviation experience going and will be competing with rated guys on the board.

My advice is to go into one of the non-rated career fields and bust your ass. Get yourself into an aeroclub and befriend one of the old heads and have him teach you everything that he knows. Apply to pilot on all the boards that come up while you're eligible and I'll bet you'll get picked up within a couple of years. I am a NAV turned Pilot but I can tell you I was lucky and got in before the force shaping stuff and the "to many pilots" BS. Looking at it now with only one shot at a board and less than 20% selection rate for pilot there is no way in hell I'd take those odds, but I'm not a betting man. Good luck.

d

[Guest scottaxelson]

I have been a AF Nav for 2.5 years now. I am also applying on this AD board this month. I am 27 and will have 2 more boards if I dont make it this time around. I also applied last year, well before my 2.5 years rated service, but after asking the waiver people, I was told I would be a few months short of my 2 years time on station and they told me to apply anyway. Going navigator first is not a bad thing at all and you will get plenty of opportunites, granted you're straight out of ROTC and not too old. Plus, you'll be miles ahead at UPT with your aviation sense and knowledge. Many UPT instructors have said past Navs, EWOs, ABMs do very well at UPT. Granted not ALL, but a lot of them do. So there are many pluses to being a navigator. (Another is you AF job security)

However, here's the bad news. It seems they are filling the nav ranks pretty well recently. And, navs are getting PPLs before JSUNT training. Id say 75% of all those navs want to be pilots, and now they're all gonna have PPLs to help them out. And pilot slots wont be too plenty unless the airlines start hiring again. So you take the good with the bad.

In short, I'd just be happy to put a pair of wings on the uniform and go from there. But it deffinatly can't hurt at all to do Nav/EWO/ABM first.

[Guest doug76]

a nav,

You are lucky to be in a command that let you get away with applying early. It clearly states in the regs that you must wear you're wings for 2.5 years before applying. In my situation the 2.5 years was enforced and I can see the AF getting tougher on this in the near future. It took me a year to get my wings(pensacola). That left 1.5years(one board) to apply before bumping up against the 5 year lockout. I would not trade the route that I took getting to UPT. The advantage that I have over my peers is almost criminal. You also make a good point about the vulnerability to force shaping. I wish you the best.

[Guest doug76]

a nav,

You are lucky to be in a command that let you get away with applying early. It clearly states in the regs that you must wear you're wings for 2.5 years before applying. In my situation the 2.5 years was enforced and I can see the AF getting tougher on this in the near future. It took me a year to get my wings(pensacola). That left 1.5years(one board) to apply before bumping up against the 5 year lockout. I would not trade the route that I took getting to UPT. The advantage that I have over my peers is almost criminal. You also make a good point about the vulnerability to force shaping. I wish you the best.

[Guest Shady]

Originally posted by doug76:

If you go NAV you'll get flight experience, possibly combat experience, and you'll be rated. You will then get to compete on the same board that the non-flyers meet with a tremendous advantage.

Incorrect, Navs only compete with other rated applicants (Navs and Abms). The only advantage you will see as a Nav obviously is at UPT. It is a bad idea, in my opinion, to try to game the system by taking a non-flying job inorder to apply for UPT quicker. Remember, you may never get picked up for UPT, and if that should happen, make sure you are in a job you like.

[Guest Shady]

Originally posted by doug76:

If you go NAV you'll get flight experience, possibly combat experience, and you'll be rated. You will then get to compete on the same board that the non-flyers meet with a tremendous advantage.

Incorrect, Navs only compete with other rated applicants (Navs and Abms). The only advantage you will see as a Nav obviously is at UPT. It is a bad idea, in my opinion, to try to game the system by taking a non-flying job inorder to apply for UPT quicker. Remember, you may never get picked up for UPT, and if that should happen, make sure you are in a job you like.

[drewpey]

Originally posted by doug76:

It clearly states in the regs that you must wear you're wings for 2.5 years before applying.

Where can I read up on this? My old det PAS worked at personnel and told me that it was 2(or 2.5) years after pinning on nav wings before you could start UPT (or something to that fashion) and so despite what they tell me, I can apply early, as long as my class starts after that deadline.

I am just curious as to where he got his information, if perhaps he misread it...much thanks!

[Guest doug76]

Shady,

I think you misunderstand me. If you are already a NAV and decide that you want to become a pilot you WILL compete on the same AD board that everyone else meets. Trust me. In my opinion if you are already rated(winged nav) you WILL have a slightly better chance on the board than the average maintenance officer. Again second sentence is my opinion only, where as the first is fact.

Given the current climate of the Air Force you're probably right about staying away from a desk and being in the air no matter what type wings you wear. I do however have two good friends that are exceptional Navigators who want desperatly to cross over to the Pilot side, but won't get another look because of the 5 year lockout and that's to bad. To each his own.

Drewpey,

You got it. Per the REG you can apply to a board that would, if selected, result in you serving 2.5 years as a rated nav. In other words you could theoretically apply a few months early.

ref:

AFI 36-2205

"Officers selected for or currently enrolled in SUNT are ineligible to apply for pilot training until completion of SUNT and award of aeronautical rating of navigator. Navigators may apply to any board that, if selected, will result in serving the full 2 ½ years of rated duty (as a navigator) by their selected

class start date for a given selection board."

[Guest doug76]

Shady,

I think you misunderstand me. If you are already a NAV and decide that you want to become a pilot you WILL compete on the same AD board that everyone else meets. Trust me. In my opinion if you are already rated(winged nav) you WILL have a slightly better chance on the board than the average maintenance officer. Again second sentence is my opinion only, where as the first is fact.

Given the current climate of the Air Force you're probably right about staying away from a desk and being in the air no matter what type wings you wear. I do however have two good friends that are exceptional Navigators who want desperatly to cross over to the Pilot side, but won't get another look because of the 5 year lockout and that's to bad. To each his own.

Drewpey,

You got it. Per the REG you can apply to a board that would, if selected, result in you serving 2.5 years as a rated nav. In other words you could theoretically apply a few months early.

ref:

AFI 36-2205

"Officers selected for or currently enrolled in SUNT are ineligible to apply for pilot training until completion of SUNT and award of aeronautical rating of navigator. Navigators may apply to any board that, if selected, will result in serving the full 2 ½ years of rated duty (as a navigator) by their selected

class start date for a given selection board."

[Guest pilothoper]

How hard is it to get a waiver for the 5 year commision cutoff to apply for pilot? I was under the impression this waiver was not that hard to get this waiver. By reading this thread you guys make it sound like it's close to impossible!

[Guest acv105]

pilothoper,

As a nav, I have found it exremely difficult to get the waiver necessary to compete for UPT after 5 yrs of commissioned service. Just got shot down at my MAJCOM this year. Last year those waivers didn't make it past the group level.

May you have better luck than my friends and I did.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Shady:

I must be wrong then; when my packed was selected I was told I was only competing against other Navs. Seems unfair to the non-flyers, but whatever.

I think you are correct, unless something has changed in the last year or two. AD Navs only compete with other navs/abms for UPT. The non-rated (it really chaps my ass to have call ABMs "rated"..but I digress) folks compete against each other for a different pile of slots. Navs typically had a 15-20% chance of being picked up, while the less qualified (AFOQT, PCSM, and flying hour wise, at least) non-rated folks had a 40-50% select rate, IIRC.

How hard is it to get a waiver for the 5 year commision cutoff to apply for pilot? I was under the impression this waiver was not that hard to get this waiver. By reading this thread you guys make it sound like it's close to impossible!

While it isn't impossible to get the 5 year TAFCS waiver, I would say it is VERY difficult to get. There are always exceptions, but I have never met anyone who got the waiver on Active Duty. Everyone I know who was turned down on AD ended up getting the waiver via the ANG. A loss for AD, IMHO.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Shady:

I must be wrong then; when my packed was selected I was told I was only competing against other Navs. Seems unfair to the non-flyers, but whatever.

I think you are correct, unless something has changed in the last year or two. AD Navs only compete with other navs/abms for UPT. The non-rated (it really chaps my ass to have call ABMs "rated"..but I digress) folks compete against each other for a different pile of slots. Navs typically had a 15-20% chance of being picked up, while the less qualified (AFOQT, PCSM, and flying hour wise, at least) non-rated folks had a 40-50% select rate, IIRC.

How hard is it to get a waiver for the 5 year commision cutoff to apply for pilot? I was under the impression this waiver was not that hard to get this waiver. By reading this thread you guys make it sound like it's close to impossible!

While it isn't impossible to get the 5 year TAFCS waiver, I would say it is VERY difficult to get. There are always exceptions, but I have never met anyone who got the waiver on Active Duty. Everyone I know who was turned down on AD ended up getting the waiver via the ANG. A loss for AD, IMHO.

[Guest blkafnav]

My advice is to go into one of the non-rated career fields and bust your ass. Get yourself into an aeroclub and befriend one of the old heads and have him teach you everything that he knows. Apply to pilot on all the boards that come up while you're eligible and I'll bet you'll get picked up within a couple of years. I am a NAV turned Pilot but I can tell you I was lucky and got in before the force shaping stuff and the "to many pilots" BS. Looking at it now with only one shot at a board and less than 20% selection rate for pilot there is no way in hell I'd take those odds, but I'm not a betting man. Good luck.

Doug76,

You may be lucky but I wouldn't tell people to turn down a nav slot. Once you turn down ANY rated position, even in ROTC, you can never apply again. I was a nav before becoming a pilot and loved every minute of it. Like I have said on other post, BEING A PILOT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE THE BEST THE AIR FORCE HAS TO OFFER!

You can put in an application but cannot start UPT until you have served 2.5yrs as a nav. I had a Capt in my class that did 8 months. Some people think that navs are second class aviators. The only thing we don't do in JSUNT is get stick time, stp. We learn about weather, instruments, approaches, flight rules, airspace, all the regs, etc. We actually get more training on flying the friendly skies b/c we have sims that allow us to do so. In UPT our flights/sims were no more than 1.3. In UNT the flights/sims ar 4.0 and you are a**holes and elbows the whole time until you get pretty good. Then they throw new sh*t at you. We learn about ICAO procedures and pratice them in UNT. In UPT you may read about them for 10 minutes. I always wondered when I was a nav why new copilots had no clue about the flight rules, approaches, STARS, etc.

Then going to UPT I found out.

There we learned EP's, systems, and EP's. I understand why they want you to learn all the systems and EP's for flights. The sims could have at least tried to prepare pilots for most of their flying, in international airspace. Copilots have no clue how to fill out an 1801. Nor do they know have to give a position report. Yes, pilots in the Air Force know how to fly a plane, but I'm here to tell you it isn't as cosmic as many want to believe.

Sorry to get on a soapbox. I don't want to see anybody turn down or not apply for nav b/c they think it's below them. The nav flies just as high as the pilots and looks down at all other non-rated officers who regret not putting in for the backseat .

[Guest blkafnav]

My advice is to go into one of the non-rated career fields and bust your ass. Get yourself into an aeroclub and befriend one of the old heads and have him teach you everything that he knows. Apply to pilot on all the boards that come up while you're eligible and I'll bet you'll get picked up within a couple of years. I am a NAV turned Pilot but I can tell you I was lucky and got in before the force shaping stuff and the "to many pilots" BS. Looking at it now with only one shot at a board and less than 20% selection rate for pilot there is no way in hell I'd take those odds, but I'm not a betting man. Good luck.

Doug76,

You may be lucky but I wouldn't tell people to turn down a nav slot. Once you turn down ANY rated position, even in ROTC, you can never apply again. I was a nav before becoming a pilot and loved every minute of it. Like I have said on other post, BEING A PILOT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE THE BEST THE AIR FORCE HAS TO OFFER!

You can put in an application but cannot start UPT until you have served 2.5yrs as a nav. I had a Capt in my class that did 8 months. Some people think that navs are second class aviators. The only thing we don't do in JSUNT is get stick time, stp. We learn about weather, instruments, approaches, flight rules, airspace, all the regs, etc. We actually get more training on flying the friendly skies b/c we have sims that allow us to do so. In UPT our flights/sims were no more than 1.3. In UNT the flights/sims ar 4.0 and you are a**holes and elbows the whole time until you get pretty good. Then they throw new sh*t at you. We learn about ICAO procedures and pratice them in UNT. In UPT you may read about them for 10 minutes. I always wondered when I was a nav why new copilots had no clue about the flight rules, approaches, STARS, etc.

Then going to UPT I found out.

There we learned EP's, systems, and EP's. I understand why they want you to learn all the systems and EP's for flights. The sims could have at least tried to prepare pilots for most of their flying, in international airspace. Copilots have no clue how to fill out an 1801. Nor do they know have to give a position report. Yes, pilots in the Air Force know how to fly a plane, but I'm here to tell you it isn't as cosmic as many want to believe.

Sorry to get on a soapbox. I don't want to see anybody turn down or not apply for nav b/c they think it's below them. The nav flies just as high as the pilots and looks down at all other non-rated officers who regret not putting in for the backseat .

[Guest doug76]

Also, blkafnav is 100% correct in saying that if you select NAV on your 215 and then turn it down you will be barred from competing in the future.

D

[Guest Spitfire]

Same topic, new twist:

Say you go AD nav. With the 6 year commitment after JSUNT, can you cut out of that 6 years early if you get picked up for UPT through a guard or reserve unit instead of the AD pilot board?

[Guest Spitfire]

Same topic, new twist:

Say you go AD nav. With the 6 year commitment after JSUNT, can you cut out of that 6 years early if you get picked up for UPT through a guard or reserve unit instead of the AD pilot board?

[Guest blkafnav]

Yes you can. A fellow nav of mine picked up for UPT by the NE Guard at his 3 1/2 year point. He will finish his AD commitment with them and pick up another guard commitment after UPT. Remember, there is nothing set in stone.

[Guest blkafnav]

Yes you can. A fellow nav of mine picked up for UPT by the NE Guard at his 3 1/2 year point. He will finish his AD commitment with them and pick up another guard commitment after UPT. Remember, there is nothing set in stone.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by blkafnav:

Yes you can. A fellow nav of mine picked up for UPT by the NE Guard at his 3 1/2 year point. He will finish his AD commitment with them and pick up another guard commitment after UPT. Remember, there is nothing set in stone.

He was most likely released from AD under the Palace Chase program. Like you mentioned, if approved you serve the remainder of your ADSC with the ANG/AFRES plus any new commitment (UPT). Strangely enough, you have to pay back your 'unearned' tuition assistance when you leave the AD.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by blkafnav:

Yes you can. A fellow nav of mine picked up for UPT by the NE Guard at his 3 1/2 year point. He will finish his AD commitment with them and pick up another guard commitment after UPT. Remember, there is nothing set in stone.

He was most likely released from AD under the Palace Chase program. Like you mentioned, if approved you serve the remainder of your ADSC with the ANG/AFRES plus any new commitment (UPT). Strangely enough, you have to pay back your 'unearned' tuition assistance when you leave the AD.