Navigator to pilot

[FireMission]

For navs that go pilot: do flight hours as a nav count as flight hours towards PCSM score when you put a package in?

[FireMission]

For navs that go pilot: do flight hours as a nav count as flight hours towards PCSM score when you put a package in?

[Guest blkafnav]

Originally posted by Airp:

For navs that go pilot: do flight hours as a nav count as flight hours towards PCSM score when you put a package in?

No they do not. It is only private hours that count toward your PCSM.

[Guest blkafnav]

Originally posted by Airp:

For navs that go pilot: do flight hours as a nav count as flight hours towards PCSM score when you put a package in?

No they do not. It is only private hours that count toward your PCSM.

[Odium]

No they do not. It is only private hours that count toward your PCSM.

I know this is quite the thread revival, but do IFS hours count towards PCSM for CSOs who later apply for UPT?

[Duck]

I know this is quite the thread revival, but do IFS hours count towards PCSM for CSOs who later apply for UPT?

As long as you have logged them in your book.

[Guest Avi]

I am a civilian flight instructor. I applied for an Air Force pilot slot and got navigator. What are my chances of transferring to a pilot slot after being a navigator? If the chances aren't looking too good then I think I will maintain my civilian job rather than sign a 6 year commitment as a navigator.

[skinny]

1. How old are you?

Regardless of what your experience is, there will always be the age cut-off of 30 years old for UPT. While it is waiverable, I believe it's a 4-Star/MAJCOM level waiver. Worst they can say is no. After a couple of years of seasoning as a CSO, there will be opportunities to apply for UPT however, I will let other who are more in the know than I to explain that process.

2. Did you apply pilot only?

If not, when you turn down CSO, please apologize to those that applied for a CSO slot and did not get it. If you did apply pilot only, there were some mutterings after the 09-03 rated board of recruiters adding the CSO as a number two choice without the applicants knowing.

3. Sounds like you're not really joining the AF to be an officer but to be a pilot....which by the sound of it, you already are. Maybe it's best for you to have a little "coming to Jesus" moment and think about what you want to do; be an officer in the AF and a CSO, or a civilian pilot. Whatever you choose good luck, but I personally wouldn't throw away a great opportunity to serve your country. I was picked up in the 09-03 board after two attempts and got my second choice CSO. Sure I still wish I would have gotten UPT, but with selection rates what they are right now, I feel privileged to have even been picked up. Your civilian ratings aren't going to dissapear after six years, you can always go back to the civilian life after six years if you so desire. And trust me, six years in the grand scheme of things is not that long.

Edit: Grammar

Edited December 7, 2009 by skinny

[discus]

#1 If you would have used the search function, you would have found Congrats, you are now talking to mostly Rated Officers and people who have already started UPT/UNT and are way further down the line than you are. This isn't Air Force OTS.com anymore.

#2 if you didn't want Nav, why in the F*CK would you put it down on your application? If you just got picked up on the 10-01 board, you were lucky enough to get selected on one of the toughest boards in a long time. You must have truly had an impressive application. Nice work.

#3 If you applied "Just to be a Pilot" and not help everyone out there hack the mission and win this fight of our lives that is about to get a lot uglier, GET THE HELL OUT. I don't want your worthless ass in my Air Force. Turn down the slot. Fine. Just make sure you offer apologies to every one of the people who did NOT get in on this OTS board who could have really helped us out, who's slot you as a selfish, self centered piece of crap just took.

#4 You picked TODAY of all days to come whining about not getting the job you wanted? REALLY? What a difference 68 years makes! You realize that today 68 years ago, guys were signing up for WHATEVER job they could get just to help out the cause? They didn't care, they just wanted to do their parts, and you pick TODAY to whine. I guess this really is the entitlement generation. "Well I deserve"...

#5 Get over yourself.

//Rant off//

Seriously, congrats on being picked up.

EDIT: Now, new and improved, more rant! Thought about this selfish posting on Dec 7th and couldn't help myself.

Edited December 7, 2009 by discus

[slacker]

Nothing wrong with wanting to be a pilot and not a nav. You'll get beat up on here regularly for not wanting to "serve" as an officer first. I think it's just being pragmatic with your life. If you don't want to be a nav, don't. 6 years is a long time to serve if it's not what you want. Look into other ways to find a pilot slot (i.e. ANG, AFRC, or another service all together). If you can't find another way into the pilot seat, then consider the second best job in the Air Force and take a nav slot.

I don't know the current rules/processes involved with your situation, I just wanted to say there is no harm in wanting to be a pilot. Good luck.

[discus]

Nothing wrong with wanting to be a pilot and not a nav. You'll get beat up on here regularly for not wanting to "serve" as an officer first. I think it's just being pragmatic with your life.

Slacker; I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a pilot and not a Nav. But, if you didn't want to be a Nav, why would you put down a #2 choice of "Nav" on your application? If you just want to be a pilot, and otherwise will not take the slot, why not just put "Pilot?" That's why the question is there, so that the huge pain of all the paperwork his poor recruiter had to do, as well as the time of the busy Col's on the selection board was not wasted. It's easy, just check the box "Pilot". Now, what this guy has done is taken a slot from someone who may have really wanted the job and done very well at it.

I'm not ranting about wanting to be a pilot, I'm not ranting about being a little down about being picked up as a Nav and not realizing a dream, what I'm ranting about is being selfish; I'm ranting about taking someones slot because you wanted to look like you were "All in" when you really were not.

[gohornsgo]

Slacker; I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a pilot and not a Nav. But, if you didn't want to be a Nav, why would you put down a #2 choice of "Nav" on your application? If you just want to be a pilot, and otherwise will not take the slot, why not just put "Pilot?" That's why the question is there, so that the huge pain of all the paperwork his poor recruiter had to do, as well as the time of the busy Col's on the selection board was not wasted. It's easy, just check the box "Pilot". Now, what this guy has done is taken a slot from someone who may have really wanted the job and done very well at it.

I'm not ranting about wanting to be a pilot, I'm not ranting about being a little down about being picked up as a Nav and not realizing a dream, what I'm ranting about is being selfish; I'm ranting about taking someones slot because you wanted to look like you were "All in" when you really were not.

As a fairly competitive applicant who didn't make the cut for pilot or nav on a fairly competitive board, I whole heartedly agree with this.

Whatever, man. You didn't take a slot from me, I guess. Maybe if I was a little bit better on paper I would have gotten one. But believe me, it pisses me the ###### off to watch you acting like a douchebag talking all this trash about "oh well if I can't be a pilot maybe I just won't serve." Trust me, there were a lot of good people that didn't get picked up that would have given their left nut (if they could get a waiver for it) for that slot you're acting like a little bitch about. That right there tells me your mind was in the wrong place when you applied.

/sour grapes rant

[Guest Pony]

How hard is it to get a waiver for the 5 year commision cutoff to apply for pilot? I was under the impression this waiver was not that hard to get this waiver. By reading this thread you guys make it sound like it's close to impossible!

We are doing a waiver right now for this very thing in the Guard. For us it is actually five years as a NAV. Everyone so far has said it is doable as long as you are under 8 years as a NAV. Actually, it is an exception to policy and it is a big deal. It requires several letters, including one from your TAG. It is a major pain, so be prepared to go the mat to get it done.

[Guest Pinto]

Nav to Pilot is not that hard (but you need to do your own legwork). You can apply after 2.5 yrs on any active duty board or Palace Chase into the Guard/Reserves. Worked for me anyway.

[Duster]

Nav to Pilot is not that hard (but you need to do your own legwork). You can apply after 2.5 yrs on any active duty board or Palace Chase into the Guard/Reserves. Worked for me anyway.

Any other nav turned pilot (or those that attempted) care to chime in? Understanding that you can't apply until 2.5 years into your commitment how early is too early to start asking about applying to UPT? In general, are SQ/GP/WG/CC and peers supportive of dudes that want to make the transition? Do many go into nav training wanting to eventually end up at UPT? I realize that mileage may vary greatly here, just curious. Thanks in advance.

[go_cubbies22]

Any other nav turned pilot (or those that attempted) care to chime in? Understanding that you can't apply until 2.5 years into your commitment how early is too early to start asking about applying to UPT? In general, are SQ/GP/WG/CC and peers supportive of dudes that want to make the transition? Do many go into nav training wanting to eventually end up at UPT? I realize that mileage may vary greatly here, just curious. Thanks in advance.

The 2.5 years is from the date you get your nav wings. You can apply before that point but must serve the full 2.5 years prior to starting UPT. From this years UFT board announcement:

5. IAW AFI 36-2205, CSO AND ABM APPLICANTS APPLYING FOR PILOT TRAINING MUST SERVE A FULL 2 1/2 YEARS OF RESPECTIVE RATED DUTY PRIOR TO SUPT CLASS START DATE BUT MAY APPLY WITH JUST 2 YEARS OF RATED DUTY SO LONG AS THEY CAN FULFILL THE 2 1/2 YEARS BY 30 SEPTEMBER 2010. THE 2 1/2 YEARS RATED DUTY REQUIREMENT BEGINS ON THE DAY THE APPLICANT RECEIVED THEIR INITIAL AERONAUTICAL RATING.

From personal experience, I would say that a majority of people in nav training have the goal of going to UPT. By the time people are eligible to apply, many decide not to for various reasons such as not wanting to go back to the gayness of AETC, actually liking their job as a nav, or not wanting to incur the additional ADSC. For the board I got picked up on, about 60 of 140 applicants were rated with 25 of the 40 picked up for UPT being rated. It looks like similar numbers from this years board.

If you are about to start Nav training, I wouldn't talk about wanting to go to UPT all the time at nav school. Don't be that guy that is always saying that he should have been a pilot. When you get to your first unit, I would definitely tell your Flt/CC and SQ/CC your goal of going to UPT. Most of them will be supportive. My best advice is to kick a** at whatever you do. Try to get DG out of nav school and your FTU (without being a douche to the other guys in your class). When you get to your ops unit, be a good bro in the squadron and try hard at everything you do. With some luck and hard work, you should be in a good position to get picked up. Good luck.

[Duster]

Are nav turned pilots eligible to FAIP?

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

Are nav turned pilots eligible to FAIP?

They are, but you'll be strongly discouraged from (perhaps even prohibited from?) selecting it. Assuming that you'll be a Capt (or closing in on Capt) by the time you bid for your assignment, they almost always put Capt's straight through to an MWS. No white jets, or other off-shoot gigs. It puts you too far behind your peers when it's time for promotion boards. I saw one Capt get approved for a C-21 because he desperately wanted it. What do you know...he got passed over for Major not long after he arrived at his (second assignment) MWS squadron.

[Guest Justshootme]

Any other nav turned pilot (or those that attempted) care to chime in? Understanding that you can't apply until 2.5 years into your commitment how early is too early to start asking about applying to UPT? In general, are SQ/GP/WG/CC and peers supportive of dudes that want to make the transition? Do many go into nav training wanting to eventually end up at UPT? I realize that mileage may vary greatly here, just curious. Thanks in advance.

I had no intentions of ever applying for UPT because I was told way back when in ROTC that my eyes were too bad. Low and behold, anything is waiverable almost once you've got wings. Personally, I waited until the early summer prior to the board to let my leadership know. One word of advice. I would mention it early enough to give a chance at having it included in your OPR. My SQ/CC was able to put "must select for UPT" on my push line, which helped a lot to strengthen my overall package (sts). Building continuity between your 215 and your OPR's/training reports is a must if you want to be competitive.

[Guest DickMartin1]

I am currently at nav school and want to go to UPT. I was originally picked up for a pilot slot through OTS, but told I couldn't get the medical waiver I needed until I was a rated officer. Sure some of the instructors here know my situation and know that I want to go to UPT eventually, so you don't really need to hide it. I have only seen support for it (and a bunch of lame jokes about going back to AETC). However, I don't want people to think that I, or anybody in my position, is not working hard here at UNT. In fact, I graduate next week as the #1 grad in my class, so I have worked my a** off. My concern however, is the age thing. Is it possible to get an age waiver. I am going to be 27 when I graduate and that would only give me one shot to apply for pilot. Does anyone know much about this?

[HiFlyer]

I can only say one thing about this. Waivers generally depend on the seriousness of the particular factor in question and how badly the AF needs you in that position. If they're short of pilots in two-three years and the medical condition is not serious and is waiverable you have a shot (obviously, age is not a medical condition so the entire equation revolves around need).

Edited June 2, 2010 by HiFlyer

[Guest Andor]

Anyone done this before as an ABM? I know I want to be a pilot, but I still have some time before I get my rating and do the 2.5 years. Anyone have some advice for me? I'll probably get my PPL before my 2.5 years are up, or at the very least, get a bunch of hours.

[go_cubbies22]

Anyone done this before as an ABM? I know I want to be a pilot, but I still have some time before I get my rating and do the 2.5 years. Anyone have some advice for me? I'll probably get my PPL before my 2.5 years are up, or at the very least, get a bunch of hours.

I would definitely try to get your PPL. As said before, your first goal is to be good at your current job. After that, it's important to have a push line for UPT and strats in your OPRs.

These two threads have some pretty good info. Hacker outlines a brief about the AD board which helped me a lot. I believe he also posted successful 215s over at wantscheck, which are nice to have when it comes time to write your own.

UPT selection board brief

Good luck.

[Shiner]

I had no intentions of ever applying for UPT because I was told way back when in ROTC that my eyes were too bad. Low and behold, anything is waiverable almost once you've got wings. Personally, I waited until the early summer prior to the board to let my leadership know. One word of advice. I would mention it early enough to give a chance at having it included in your OPR. My SQ/CC was able to put "must select for UPT" on my push line, which helped a lot to strengthen my overall package (sts). Building continuity between your 215 and your OPR's/training reports is a must if you want to be competitive.

This is actually the first time hearing this "connection from OPR to 215" deal. Anyone else done this? I am thinking it would be something nice to have if you dont have a strat in your push line, but certainly not a must to be competitive. Maybe more like wasted space if its time for PRFs and you didnt get selected?

[go_cubbies22]

This is actually the first time hearing this "connection from OPR to 215" deal. Anyone else done this? I am thinking it would be something nice to have if you dont have a strat in your push line, but certainly not a must to be competitive. Maybe more like wasted space if its time for PRFs and you didnt get selected?

I made sure that I had "must send to UPT" as well as a strat in my push lines in my last 2 OPRs before the board. The other guy that got picked up from my squadron also had this in his push lines.

These comments by Dupe and Hacker are from this thread referencing a ppt brief put together by past UFT board members

-Your 215 is compared to your OPRs. Example: You've said "I've wanted to be a pilot since I was 6," but your OPR doesn't say "Send to UPT immediately."

-- OPR comments as compared to AF215 comments (see the next bullet below for more explanation on what this means)

- As Dupe mentioned, discrepancies between what is written on your AF215 and your OPRs were a big deal for board members. For example, if the senior rater on your AF215 said something to the effect of "this is my #1 officer in my Command", they would flip to your OPR written by that Commander (if there was one) and see if his OPR comments matched that. All too often, the board member said, the OPR comments were just 'average' and the 215 comments were 'excellent'. This tended to dull the impact of the 215 comments because of the inconsistency there. If your senior rater on your 215 said you were the Heat, and on your OPR it also said you were The Heat, it strengthened the impact.